John Cleese: London is no longer an English city.

[Grant]

Is not part of this discussion about multiculturalism? Was not the residential school system in Canada an attempt to stamp out multiculturalism (get rid of the native culture).

Yes, yes, governments can behave badly, especially in retrospect. But Natives in Canada has little to do with John Cleese's memories of London, England.

As for crime and the safety of British streets, I cant comment on, but crime in the US, Canada is at as lower rate (not numbers perhaps but rater per capita) meaning the streets are safer. Given the high use of CCTV in the UK I would expect that overall public safety is generally fairly high for the UK overall. With again an exception for demographically special times (post WW2) when young adult males were in rather short supply. Public drunkeness, I expect is an age old problemw within the UK, it was the home of the neighborhood pub, and I doubt everyone who was using them went home sober. The concern I expect is just a higher level of awareness. Drug use, yes will have gone up from the early 1900's not so much from the 1970s, but that is more of an avaliability issue. Despite the UK being one of the biggest drug pushers in the 1800s, not much got back to the UK. Otherwise I expect drugs would have been in use back then as they are now.

You're just guessing. Best wait for an honest Brit to respond and they'll fill you in on the differences between England of two generations ago, which was when Cleese was young, and now.

 

[Grant]

It's how one reacts to reality that makes one a bigot. One can either react with hatred, contempt and fear of the other, as Mr. Cleese has done here, or one can react with acceptance and toleration of diversity, as Mr. Cleese has not done here.

Can you point out what Cleese said that makes him a 'bigot' and who these victims of his bigotry were?

 

[alexa]

I am hung up on using the term CORRECTLY, as it denotes a political ideology rather than just describing a group of people. To understand liberalism, one should also understand conservatism, as the "conserve" in conservatism has to do with preserving social institutions, the emphasis placed on social order above social justice. Liberalism involves an emphasis on social justice, even if the social order is compromised, and so in instances of women's rights, gay rights, etc, it is the liberal political philosophy that has resulted in the application of rights once denied them.

Multiculturalism is a political philosophy that seeks to preserve the social order of immigrant communities living within a host culture, so by very design, it works against liberalism. Rather than assigning rights to all individuals in universal fashion, it creates groups in which rights can be denied to the individual if such denial of rights is part of the culture of the group. Just because so many herd-like people have been brainwashed into believing that supporting such a double standard is "liberal", that does not make it a liberal practice.

Ah at last we have the response which shows where Gardiner has been coming from all this time. Not Liberals as is known in common parlance but something different.

Indeed what he is speaking about is the same concerns and equal concern about Liberaliasm of the neo cons and the Muslim Brotherhood as explained very well here

The Power of Nightmares : Adam Curtis : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Liberazlism itself has always had a very good base. Without genuine liberalism it would have been impossible for the British Labour party to have come into being. Gardenere's concept that Liberalism is somehow killed by

Multiculturalism is a political philosophy that seeks to preserve the social order of immigrant communities living within a host culture, so by very design, it works against liberalism.

is however false.

Name the European country which has allowed for any other country or ethnic minority to bring in laws which are not subservient to the laws of the country immigrants are living in and provide legal proof.

 

[Gardener]

r

Ah at last we have the response which shows where Gardiner has been coming from all this time. Not Liberals as is known in common parlance but something different.

Indeed what he is speaking about is the same concerns and equal concern about Liberaliasm of the neo cons and the Muslim Brotherhood as explained very well here

The Power of Nightmares : Adam Curtis : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Liberazlism itself has always had a very good base. Without genuine liberalism it would have been impossible for the British Labour party to have come into being. Gardenere's concept that Liberalism is somehow killed by is however false.

Name the European country which has allowed for any other country or ethnic minority to bring in laws which are not subservient to the laws of the country immigrants are living in and provide legal proof.

The problem here, Alexa, is that I am educated on the subject while you are profoundly ignorant, and so whereas I use the term liberal to describe an actual liberal ideology, you understanding runs no deeper than "All my little friends say something. They identify themselves as liberal. If I march in unquestioning lock step, I must be a liberal too".

 

[gunner]

r

The problem here, Alexa, is that I am educated on the subject while you are profoundly ignorant, and so whereas I use the term liberal to describe an actual liberal ideology, you understanding runs no deeper than "All my little friends say something. They identify themselves as liberal. If I march in unquestioning lock step, I must be a liberal too".

It reads time after time more like an indoctrination. Once we venture into that murky world of 'ideology' all manner of dogmatic-dictatorial parlance flow in such an uncompromising way that the venturing has us acting in such a way that would have despised us so, at the start of our journey. As was explained to you in another thread, since when, or by who, is it written, or spoken that being 'Liberal' entitles the 'liberal' to expect some kind of reciprocal relationship?

Paul

 

[Gardener]

It reads time after time more like an indoctrination.

If you consider it an "indoctrination" to point out that an ideology is something to be understood rather than just followed blindly by way of conforming to the opinions of those identifying themselves as following it, you need to acquaint yourself with the actual meaning of the word. I am arguing against the sort of mindless indoctrinated pap that Alexa dispenses.

Once we venture into that murky world of 'ideology' all manner of dogmatic-dictatorial parlance flow in such an uncompromising way that the venturing has us acting in such a way that would have despised us so, at the start of our journey.

Believe me, Paul, I do appreciate your attempts to dress up your prose in such a florid manner, but it reads so much like a Buddhist koan for which there is no real answer that I find myself with the irresistible urge to snatch a pebble from your hand.

As was explained to you in another thread, since when, or by who, is it written, or spoken that being 'Liberal' entitles the 'liberal' to expect some kind of reciprocal relationship?

Paul

Do I need to cite you for profligate use of commas AGAIN, Paul?

As to the notion of reciprocity, I might point out that the very basis for liberalism is the framing of human interactions in such a way that such a notion is tied quite inexorably to the definition, itself.

.......unless you are looking for an escape clause that supports your double standards, anyway......

 

[ecofarm]

Morrisey and now Cleese.

pap

That's a little harsh.

 

[alexa]

r

The problem here, Alexa, is that I am educated on the subject while you are profoundly ignorant, and so whereas I use the term liberal to describe an actual liberal ideology, you understanding runs no deeper than "All my little friends say something. They identify themselves as liberal. If I march in unquestioning lock step, I must be a liberal too".

I wouldn't put myself as ignorant as you say. My degree was largely political theory though it was some years ago whereas you had your occupation as a 'gardener' certainly until recently which would seem to suggest no real basis for your theories except your political mentors which are such people as Daniel Pipes. Paul I think has also studied such things on an academic level as well though I do understand that to people of your thinking the burning of the books and the academics is not far off.

You have failed to present one illustration of where multiculturalism has by law preserved the social order of immigrants over and above the law of the country they have gone to live in.

 

[Grant]

You have failed to present one illustration of where multiculturalism has by law preserved the social order of immigrants over and above the law of the country they have gone to live in.

Mexican illegals in the United States is one example.

 

[Gardener]

I wouldn't put myself as ignorant as you say. My degree was largely political theory though it was some years ago whereas you had your occupation as a 'gardener' certainly until recently which would seem to suggest no real basis for your theories except your political mentors which are such people as Daniel Pipes. Paul I think has also studied such things on an academic level as well though I do understand that to people of your thinking the burning of the books and the academics is not far off.

You have failed to present one illustration of where multiculturalism has by law preserved the social order of immigrants over and above the law of the country they have gone to live in.

What Complete bull. In an earlier thread, you didn't even know who Arnold Toynbee was, for goodness sakes.

 

[mbig]

I wouldn't put myself as ignorant as you say. My degree was largely political theory though it was some years ago whereas you had your occupation as a 'gardener' certainly until recently which would seem to suggest no real basis for your theories except your political mentors which are such people as Daniel Pipes. Paul I think has also studied such things on an academic level as well though I do understand that to people of your thinking the burning of the books and the academics is not far off.

You have failed to present one illustration of where multiculturalism has by law preserved the social order of immigrants over and above the law of the country they have gone to live in.

In years of Gardener's posts, I've never seen him cite Pipes.
You have however, and I did perhaps a few times, in Years. ie, his excellent piece on Jerusalem: http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...ians-really-want-state-19.html#post1058512431

But as I pointed out/thrashed andalublue with: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/67405-fallaci-write-europe-21.html#post1059490486
He's a far Better source than most of your Far left fringers or previously acknowledged areas of study/expertise:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/news-weird/89033-why-your-horoscope-2011-wrong-3.html#post1059205537

 

[Infinite Chaos]

California-based Cleese, 71, moved to the U.S. more than two decades ago, having grown up in Somerset.

--snip--
'I had a Californian friend come over two months ago, walk down the King's Road and say, "Where are all the English people?"
'I mean, I love having different cultures around. But when the parent culture kind of dissipates, you're left thinking, "Well, what's going on?"'

You wonder at the foolishness of this thread, London has been Roman, Anglo-Saxon, Norman etc etc in its long history, as capital of a major country it has attracted or forcibly brought peoples from all over the world. It has never been a largely "educated middle class" city as Cleese tries to claim; certainly anyone with a modicum of Victorian or even Industrial Revolution history would remember work-houses and grinding poverty in many parts of the city.

Then to top it off, he's emigrated to the US for 20 years, uses King's Road which, like Oxford Street is still a major tourist attraction, and so walking down a street where many foreign and British fashionistas still like to parade and be seen, he wonders where the parent culture is?

The same parent culture that loves its "chicken tikka massala" or "sweet and sour pork" as well as "sunday roast" is a far better place than Mr Cleese seems to realise.

 

[Arcana XV]

I am hung up on using the term CORRECTLY, as it denotes a political ideology rather than just describing a group of people. To understand liberalism, one should also understand conservatism, as the "conserve" in conservatism has to do with preserving social institutions, the emphasis placed on social order above social justice. Liberalism involves an emphasis on social justice, even if the social order is compromised, and so in instances of women's rights, gay rights, etc, it is the liberal political philosophy that has resulted in the application of rights once denied them.

Multiculturalism is a political philosophy that seeks to preserve the social order of immigrant communities living within a host culture, so by very design, it works against liberalism. Rather than assigning rights to all individuals in universal fashion, it creates groups in which rights can be denied to the individual if such denial of rights is part of the culture of the group. Just because so many herd-like people have been brainwashed into believing that supporting such a double standard is "liberal", that does not make it a liberal practice.

Cool beans. As long as you're aware of the fact that most people these days will not be using the term liberal the way you do, at least in the US. It sounds like you would fit right in with our center-right party the Liberal-Radicals here in Switzerland, although I think we're a lot more pro-business than I think you are.

 

[Arcana XV]

And yet the riots occurred in the major cities and their suburbs.

Of course they did. What did you expect? That's where all those entitlement-loving "liberals" live. You know what happens when you try to snatch a lollipop out of a toddler's hand right?

It depends what you mean by "disappeared". There will still be a Europe but it will certainly not be the same as it was a generation or two ago. There are only pockets remaining of that previous culture.

Nothing is ever the way it was a generation or two ago. If everything remained static we'd still be living in caves. And there are more than just "pockets" remaining, unless you mean in the big cities.

Not really. We have many Chinese in the Lower Mainland of BC and there are no riots where race or religion play a part..Well religion, perhaps, as the argument can be made that hockey is a religion. But apart from hockey, there is a very peaceful coexistence among the citizenry.

I'm not sure what you mean. The riots in Europe have nothing to do with race or religion. The people rioting in Greece are not doing so because of race or religion. The riots in London had nothing to do with that either. The demonstrations in Spain and Italy, which have thankfully remained largely peaceful so far, are not about race or religion either.

 

[Arcana XV]

The answer to that requires too much space and effort on my part and depends largely on the community.

Precisely my point.

 

[ecofarm]

To be fair, wasn't london first settled by romans, italians, and other Mediterranean peoples early in it's history? So there is really nothing new here.

Maybe he's celtic?

Multiculturalism leads to destruction of diversity.

Interculturalism increases diversity. Interculturalism is what americans all the "melting pot". You see, it's not really multiculturalism, which would be separate, segregated, cultures within a geographic area. To better understand the terms, allow me to use my degree as an example. Interdisiplinary Ecology. I'm not an eonomist and a sociologist and an ecologist. My degree is not "and", and neither should be society. My degree is the space that lies between these disciplines, examined to as to analyze a specific thing (in my case, low-resource developing world agriculture at a specific locale). Thus, the US mixes cultures; a newcomer can keep some of their own, people check it out and some will enjoy it... but they're Amerians first. Freedom and justice, as one might see it, comes first. Different religion, ethnicity and espeially different food styles are all welome. You see, the US is a nation of immigrants and so things are different than in Europe. The US is a melting pot, it started that way not so long ago. The US is ~15% black and has sizable populations of every other minority (they probably even got pygmies somewhere with little pygmy town that everyone loves). For the US, ignoring (the negative BS about) color or ethnicity is old hat.

"Conservative liberals differ from social liberals because they place less emphasis on ethical issues...

Wait, what? Did you just edit that into wiki?

Precisely my point.

I'm glad someone saw it.

 

[gunner]

Wait, what? Did you just edit that into wiki?

No.


Paul

 

[Gardener]

It sounds like you would fit right in with our center-right party the Liberal-Radicals here in Switzerland, although I think we're a lot more pro-business than I think you are.

You must already know that you do have means at your disposal that could go a long way towards convincing me to join.

 

[gunner]

Interculturalism increases diversity. Interculturalism is what americans all the "melting pot". You see, it's not really multiculturalism, which would be separate, segregated, cultures within a geographic area.

It looks to me you have a 'Black' culture thriving on its own merit, with not very much cultural mixing, or using your term "interculturalism"

"Less than two decades later African Americans from the south fuled the Great Migration, taking trains from southern U.S. states, especially Virginia, North and South Carolina, and Georgia, As blacks moved in, white residents left; between 1920 and 1930, 118,792 white people left the neighborhood and 87,417 blacks arrived".

History looks to point towards the 'White flight' phenomenon. Has this changed with the return to Harlem of 'White Americans'?

Harlem was the center of a blossoming of black culture and became known as the Harlem Renaissance. The Harlem Renaissance was a time of artistic, educational, and overall cultural production.

(Highlighted above because it does not seem to say 'American' Black culture, simply Black culture (which in my opinion is perfectly acceptable))

New York City Black Demographics

" Large areas of the district have turned into a slum, and the tension between the ethnic groups is one of the greatest
problems which Harlem has to face".

Harlem

I take it Harlem is now a flourishing district with little to no tension?

Paul

 

[alexa]

Interculturalism increases diversity. Interculturalism is what americans all the "melting pot". You see, it's not really multiculturalism, which would be separate, segregated, cultures within a geographic area. To better understand the terms, allow me to use my degree as an example. Interdisiplinary Ecology. I'm not an eonomist and a sociologist and an ecologist. My degree is not "and", and neither should be society. My degree is the space that lies between these disciplines, examined to as to analyze a specific thing (in my case, low-resource developing world agriculture at a specific locale). Thus, the US mixes cultures; a newcomer can keep some of their own, people check it out and some will enjoy it... but they're Amerians first. Freedom and justice, as one might see it, comes first. Different religion, ethnicity and espeially different food styles are all welome. You see, the US is a nation of immigrants and so things are different than in Europe. The US is a melting pot, it started that way not so long ago. The US is ~15% black and has sizable populations of every other minority (they probably even got pygmies somewhere with little pygmy town that everyone loves). For the US, ignoring (the negative BS about) color or ethnicity is old hat.

You have got your ideas very muddled up. How you describe Multiculturalism is a straw man version created by the far right to deceive and create hostility.

there's a fundamental problem with this indictment. The culprit is a fantasy, a straw-man multiculturalism. Look at some of the key texts on multiculturalism and you will find quite the opposite of a philosophy of separateness. Far from "putting people into ethnic boxes", multiculturalism, Professor Bhikhu Parekh claims, is "about intercultural fusion in which a culture borrows bits of others and creatively transforms both itself and them". It doesn't call for "policing of borders" but rather "integration which recognises group identities and heritage" (Professor Tariq Modood).

Critics say "scrap multiculturalism": it has led to Britain "sleepwalking into segregation" (Trevor Phillips); it "has genuinely failed", "run its course, and it is time to move on" (Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks); it has "become an excuse for justifying separateness" (Gordon Brown); it "has been manipulated to favour a divisive idea – the right to difference" (David Cameron). But look back at the definition of multiculturalism in the 1985 Swann report, produced following the race riots of the time – common values, respect for diversity, equality of opportunity, freedom of cultural expression and conscience – and you find, as Professor Sarah Spencer has pointed out, "precisely the balance of objectives that many critics of multiculturalism are calling for. The vision of many of those seeking to replace multiculturalism is very much the vision of its original proponents."

In defence of multiculturalism | Antony Lerman | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

and if you believe that British people do not integrate how do you explain this?

British African-Caribbeans have an extremely high rate of mixed-race relationships, and could in effect become the first UK ethnic group to 'disappear'.[6] Half of all British African-Caribbean men in a relationship have partners of a different ethnic background,[6] as do one-third of all British African-Caribbean women.[7] 2007 estimates for England alone roughly put the full African-Caribbean to partial African-Caribbean heritage ratio at 2:1.[2]

British African-Caribbean community - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Perry4President]

John Cleese: 'London no longer English city and that's how it got 2012 Olympics' | Mail Online

Mass immigration has turned London into a city that is 'no longer English', John Cleese claims.

The former Monty Python star says he now feels like a foreigner walking through the capital's streets.
California-based Cleese, 71, moved to the U.S. more than two decades ago, having grown up in Somerset.

The comic was asked what he thought about British culture and the recent London riots during an interview on 7.30, a television show in Australia, where he is currently on a stand-up tour.

He replied: 'I'm not sure what's going on in Britain. Or, let me say this – I don't know what's going on in London, because London is no longer an English city.

'That's how we got the Olympics.
'They said we were the most cosmopolitan city on Earth. But it doesn't feel English.
'I had a Californian friend come over two months ago, walk down the King's Road and say, "Where are all the English people?"
'I mean, I love having different cultures around. But when the parent culture kind of dissipates, you're left thinking, "Well, what's going on?"'

​

A very interesting post.

 

[ecofarm]

You have got your ideas very muddled up. How you describe Multiculturalism is a straw man version created by the far right to deceive and create hostility.

Not muddled.

That's how I see it. The "anti-multiculuralists" (fringe right) rarely speaks of positive multiculturalism (interculturalism). So why am I to believe there's anything more to it than a strawman to deceive and create hostility? The fringe left does it with class warfare. It's a misnomer, a strawman and a scapegoat. Such is racism, xenophobia and nationalism today (I'm not sure of the appropriate order for the triads). A small percentage of the population engages in it (in every group), some as useful idiots and some as one of the aforementioned dysfunctional obsessions.

My degree is Interdisciplinary Ecology and not Multidisciplinary Ecology for a reason. It's ironic that the fringe-right uses a strawman scapegoat so aptly named. Would you like to argue regarding the terminology and which term more accurately describes reality? Anyway, biodiversity is good for ecology, government and culture of all sorts. To paint diversity as a negative is, in fact, deceitful and hostile.

Do you find it acceptable to demonize diversity. Is there any part of that which you do not understand.

 

[mbig]

I am hung up on using the term CORRECTLY, as it denotes a political ideology rather than just describing a group of people. To understand liberalism, one should also understand conservatism, as the "conserve" in conservatism has to do with preserving social institutions, the emphasis placed on social order above social justice. Liberalism involves an emphasis on social justice, even if the social order is compromised, and so in instances of women's rights, gay rights, etc, it is the liberal political philosophy that has resulted in the application of rights once denied them.

Multiculturalism is a political philosophy that seeks to preserve the social order of immigrant communities living within a host culture, so by very design, it works against liberalism. Rather than assigning rights to all individuals in universal fashion, it creates groups in which rights can be denied to the individual if such denial of rights is part of the culture of the group. Just because so many herd-like people have been brainwashed into believing that supporting such a double standard is "liberal", that does not make it a liberal practice.

This is a very good elaboration of the issue; PC vs Liberal.

On that note of losing the PC...
There are immigants with conservative cultures who despite being even more foreign in custom/religion (ie, Japanese/other East Asians too) who seem to make less demands on Western systems than the main group being discussed here even while keeping most of their culture. I wish only More of them would come.
Living in NYC, more diverse than London, one becomes aware of not just 'immigrants' but which ones.

Now, on to Frisbee in Central Park and then my favorite Spanish/Cuban-Chinese place.
Peruvian spiced rotisserie chicken, special Fried Rice, sauteed Bok Choy.
Later.

 

[NoC_T]

Cleese is a product of his time. A septuagenarian with a world view coloured by the world he grew up in. Most especially, by an England still enamoured of the Empire.

It's comes as no surprise to me that he equates multi-culturalism with something odious.

 

[Manc Skipper]

He's a letterwriting fiend!

"John Cleese Letter to USA

To the citizens of the United States of America, in the light of your failure to elect a competent President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective today.

Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories. Except Utah, which she does not fancy. Your new prime minister (The Right Honourable Tony Blair, MP for the 97.85% of you who have until now been unaware that there is a world outside your borders) will appoint a minister for America without the need for further elections. Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed. To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect: ... "