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It's all Cheney/Bush's fault

frazier991

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Just looking for input here. My liberal friends tell me that the BP oil leak is Dick Cheney's fault. Is this true? Anybody well read on the subject from both sides of the issue would be appreciated.
 

Boo Radley

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Perhaps you could show me what they use as evidence?
 

niftydrifty

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In the subject you wrote "all," as in, it was "all" their fault, and you included Bush as well as Cheney. Once you got within the thread you reeled it in quite a bit, and got more specific: the BP spill, and Cheney only. So you have a penchant for hyperbole when representing points of view that you disagree with.

So, ... what did your friends REALLY say? And ,more importantly, why are you asking us to provide explanations for their positions? Why don't you ask them?
 

Boo Radley

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In the subject you wrote "all," as in, it was "all" their fault, and you included Bush as well as Cheney. Once you got within the thread you reeled it in quite a bit, and got more specific: the BP spill, and Cheney only. So you have a penchant for hyperbole when representing points of view that you disagree with.

So, ... what did your friends REALLY say? And ,more importantly, why are you asking us to provide explanations for their positions? Why don't you ask them?

Reasonable questions.
 

frazier991

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I don't have a really strong point of view yet-I'm trying to keep an open mind. I know that Bush gets blamed for more things than I can list, and I'll admit I'm no Obama fan, but people are reffering to Haliburton and softening of regulations, and Cheney's role in it. However BP is a British company. Anyway "Nifty" I am honestly asking people's opinions-if that annoys you, why even bother to reply-I simply want to hear some of the brightest perhaps hammer it out on a subject I'm not professing to be an expert on. Your lean is obvious-so make your case rather than whine about my asking for opinions. I honestly want to know if this oil leak is Cheney's fault-I'm hearing these suggestions in the media. I know enough about this website to know that there are intelligent people both liberal and conservative that I may or may not agree with but have valueable input. Have fun with your "penchant for hyperbole" I'm only interested in intelligent input.
 
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FluffyNinja

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cheney.jpg

He also killed the Easter Bunny. :(
 

Boo Radley

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Well, we can always do a search. Here's the first few that come up:

But how will they do it? What actual positions will Democrats highlight, in their quest to pin Republicans to oil? CongressDaily's Dan Friedman reports:

The White House and Senate Democrats are linking the spill to a resolution by Senate Energy and Natural Resources ranking member Lisa Murkowski disapproving of EPA's ability to regulate greenhouse gases, energy and climate change legislation that could hit the floor in July and even tax "extenders" legislation now on the floor.

Those steps follow repeated Democratic efforts to win unanimous consent to lift a federal oil spill liability cap for companies. Each time they ripped Republicans for blocking the measures.

For more energy and environment articles as well as blogs, videos and related materials, see the National Journal Group's expanded energy and environment page.
Republicans call such efforts politicization of the disaster. Democrats say bringing up the spill draws a valid contrast between the parties and is unavoidable given concern with the Gulf disaster.

Oil Spill Politics: Democratic Maneuvers - Politics - The Atlantic

In truth, culpability for the disaster can more accurately be laid at the Bush Administration's doorstep. For eight years, George Bush's presidency infected the oil industry's oversight agency, the Minerals Management Service, with a septic culture of corruption from which it has yet to recover. Oil patch alumnae in the White House encouraged agency personnel to engineer weakened safeguards that directly contributed to the gulf catastrophe.

The absence of an acoustical regulator -- a remotely triggered dead man's switch that might have closed off BP's gushing pipe at its sea floor wellhead when the manual switch failed (the fire and explosion on the drilling platform may have prevented the dying workers from pushing the button) -- was directly attributable to industry pandering by the Bush team. Acoustic switches are required by law for all offshore rigs off Brazil and in Norway's North Sea operations. BP uses the device voluntarily in Britain's North Sea and elsewhere in the world as do other big players like Holland's Shell and France's Total. In 2000, the Minerals Management Service while weighing a comprehensive rulemaking for drilling safety, deemed the acoustic mechanism "essential" and proposed to mandate the mechanism on all gulf rigs.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Sex, Lies and Oil Spills

Former Vice President Dick Cheney’s secret energy commission meetings with Big Oil execs and hunting trips with Supreme Court Justices, are now being called into question concerning the catastrophic British Petroleum Oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. Did Cheney give OK to oil companies to pass on $500,000 remote control shut-off switches?

Former gasoline sales executive Mike Toth of Akron Ohio says, “As to the switches, I believe that they have been long required in North Sea drilling.”

The real problem here is lack of transparency. Neither BP (NYSE: BP) or the government can be trusted to provide accurate information. We can’t even get a straight number concerning the volume of oil leaking. As Dr. Campbell, a former chief geologist and vice-president at a string of oil majors including BP, Shell, Fina, Exxon and ChevronTexaco, explains, “When I was the boss of an oil company I would never tell the truth. It’s not part of the game.”

http://www.halfwaytoconcord.com/blame-cheney-for-bp-oil-spill/


I wouldn't say any of this convicts Cheney, or that even if deregulation during the republican years did play a role that it negates any other error or blame. I suspect there is more than enough blame to go around, but think a better approach would be to ask exactly what happened and why, and what factors hurt or hindered the response. I can't see anyone looking real good.
 

frazier991

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Thanks for the input Boo, you've given me a bunch of stuff to look into.
 

upsideguy

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Forgive me for being redundant, but it is summer and time for summer re-runs. This is from another thread, but addresses my perspective of the Bush Administrations culpibility on the Horizon oil spill.........

* * * * *

The incestuous relationship between the MMS and Big Oil has been very well documented.

Interior Dept. scandal: Sex, drugs, energy deals probed at Denver office - The Denver Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...091001829.html

From the EPA to the Department of the Interior to the SEC, the Neo-Con answer to their distain for government regulation was to put industry people into key positions; the proverbial fox in charge of the hen house. This lax approach to regulation set the environment for this disaster.

The Macondo Prospect, where this disaster occurred, was leased in March 2009. Yes, that is during the Obama administration, but only six weeks into it. The culture / standards by which leases were evaluated and approved were established by the Bush Administration. Perhaps Obama should have placed a moritorium on all new oil leases while they re-staffed the MMS... perhaps that is what you are arguing, as that is the only thing Obama has his fingerprints on regarding the granting of this lease.

Macondo Prospect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm sorry, but the Bush Administration was a very bad presidency. From the economy to the general corruption in many key departments of government, he left a mess. If you are proud of his overall results I suggest you are either intellectually dishonest, not paying attention or want an America that is inconsistent with its 225 or so years of history. The Republicans are suppose to be about personal responsibility, except when its time for they to take that responsibility..... Bush, frankly, hasn't received enough blame for our current state of affairs.

That all said, I am not overly impressed with Obama's take charge post-disaster. Any screw-ups in the disaster mitigation (capping and clean-up), are his fault. But the fact we have a disaster, is a reflection of the lack of governmental oversight of our off-shore oil & gas drilling activities. This culture is from the previous administration.
 

Boo Radley

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Like I said, I suspect there is plenty of blame to go around. No one will walk away too clean from this.
 

FluffyNinja

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That all said, I am not overly impressed with Obama's take charge post-disaster. Any screw-ups in the disaster mitigation (capping and clean-up), are his fault. But the fact we have a disaster, is a reflection of the lack of governmental oversight of our off-shore oil & gas drilling activities. This culture is from the previous administration.
If the Obama Administration does nothing to improve the condition of oil rig safety and somehow loses the next election, will oil drilling safety oversight still be Bush's problem? Just wondering? At what point do we start passing blame to the next administration?
 
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frazier991

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What I'm curious about, is that BP is a British company-did Cheney influence an international body concerning regulations-I honestly don't know how that all works. I know there are international bodies on certain things like trade, etc., I'm really not coming from a position on all of this-I'm just trying to learn-I honestly appreciate the input from Bush admin detractors, and conservatives as well. Some of this international stuff can be a bit confusing.
 

Boo Radley

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If the Obama Administration does nothing to improve the condition of oil rig safety and somehow loses the next election, will oil drilling safety oversight still be Bush's problem? Just wondering? At what point do we start passing blame to the next administration?

No president has a magic wand. But if what led to this was what was done under Bush, his administration would hold some blame. Everything can't be changed in an instant, and it is unrealistic to expect it. But if after this Obama makes no changes, he would be responsible for not making the changes. However, that would not absolve anyone else from what he or she did. This event would still be the responsibility of everyone who contributed.
 

FluffyNinja

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No president has a magic wand. But if what led to this was what was done under Bush, his administration would hold some blame. Everything can't be changed in an instant, and it is unrealistic to expect it. But if after this Obama makes no changes, he would be responsible for not making the changes. However, that would not absolve anyone else from what he or she did. This event would still be the responsibility of everyone who contributed.
Yeah, that's just about what I thought you'd say.
 

FluffyNinja

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What I'm curious about, is that BP is a British company-did Cheney influence an international body concerning regulations-I honestly don't know how that all works. I know there are international bodies on certain things like trade, etc., I'm really not coming from a position on all of this-I'm just trying to learn-I honestly appreciate the input from Bush admin detractors, and conservatives as well. Some of this international stuff can be a bit confusing.
Evidently Halliburton was contracted by BP to improve some type of cement plugs used at the base of oil rig riser pipes and never completed the job or did not complete it effectively for reasons unknown to me. It must be pointed out;however that Dick Cheney left Halliburton in the year 2000, before this contract was initiated. I don't see the connection to Cheney.
 

FluffyNinja

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Do you disagree? If I shoot someone, does your shooting him absolve me?
Poor analogy. Shooting implies willful intent. I don't think the Bush Administration is guilty of willfully endangering lives in this instance. Negligence, maybe. BTW you said things couldn't be changed in an "instant." I don't see four years as an "instant."
 

frazier991

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Thanks, Fluffy-I'm learning.
 

Boo Radley

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Poor analogy. Shooting implies willful intent. I don't think the Bush Administration is guilty of willfully endangering lives in this instance. Negligence, maybe. BTW you said things couldn't be changed in an "instant." I don't see four years as an "instant."

Willful or not, say I do some neglegent, as you suggest, and do it as well, would that absolve me?

As for four years, it hasn't been four years yet. I did say if after this Obama makes no changes, he would be responsible for not making the changes.
 

FluffyNinja

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Thanks, Fluffy-I'm learning.
So am I. :) as far as administrative oversight regarding oil drilling safety regulations (emergency shut-off valves and such) and how much blame the Bush Administration deserves, I'm not really sure. We'll probably never know the complete truth.
 

FluffyNinja

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Willful or not, say I do some neglegent, as you suggest, and do it as well, would that absolve me?

As for four years, it hasn't been four years yet. I did say if after this Obama makes no changes, he would be responsible for not making the changes.
If Party#2 was aware of the negligence,had a chance to fix the wrong, did nothing, and still continued to allow the negligence to occur.....I would say Party #2 deserves to shoulder the blame.
 

Boo Radley

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If Party#2 was aware of the negligence,had a chance to fix the wrong, did nothing, and still continued to allow the negligence to occur.....I would say Party #2 deserves to shoulder the blame.

All the balme, and none for the for the original party? The damaged caused would still have been caused by the original party. I think responsibility aplies for everyone's actions, and just the last persons.
 
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