Islam

[clone]

i agree with captain america.

but what exactly does allah command?
these days everyone is spinning everything to make it agree with their agendas. if what you say is true and allah commands muslims to kill innocents, then why is it also written in the Quran "There is no compulsion in religion" (Chapter 2, Verse 256). if everything that everyone has heard about islam is true and means exactly what they think it means, then the Quran is nothing but a giant contradiction.

arguing about the validity of one verse compared to some other verse is pointless if you do not take into account the time during which they were revealed, to whom the verse is commanding, and the reason behind it.

Most verses that speak of killing disbelievers were revealed in times of war and ALL of them imply war ONLY as an act of defense:
"And slay these transgressors wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worst than slaying. And fight them not in and near the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them. Such is the requital for the disbelievers. "(chapter 2, verse 192)

and do not forget the suffering the muslims in mecca faced before Hijra. They were persecuted relentlessly; and yet when Muhammad conquered mecca 10 years after Hijra, he did not massacre the people that had so badly persecuted his followers and him, he forgave them.

as for womens rights, you fail to see that in Pre-Muhammad Arabia daughters were buried alive, and women had no rights at all. Muhammad and Islam came and gave women some respect. In fact, the muslim army once even had a female general; did this ever happen in Rome?

Islam is a religion founded in a time of crusades and wars; self-defense was neccessary. However, the same rules do NOT apply to modern times. anyone who uses the word of god as an excuse to murder innocents is a liar and will be dealt with on the day of judgement.

a good site about this is: http://shahbaz786.tripod.com/islam/rulesofwar.html

and what about all the good teachings of islam? what of the verses that tell muslims to give to the poor, to protect orphans and the sick, to help our neighbors in any way? people these days focus only on those parts of islam that they can obscure to make islam out to be a evil religion.

read the entire quran, cover to cover, if you want real insight into this religion, rather than a narrow-minded peek through a keyhole of obscurity.

 

[Prophetxxx]

but what exactly does allah command?
these days everyone is spinning everything to make it agree with their agendas. if what you say is true and allah commands muslims to kill innocents, then why is it also written in the Quran "There is no compulsion in religion" (Chapter 2, Verse 256). if everything that everyone has heard about islam is true and means exactly what they think it means, then the Quran is nothing but a giant contradiction.

Qur'an 4:90''If they turn back from Islam, becoming renegades, seize them and kill them wherever you find them.'' If there's no compulsion for religion, then why are muslims killed if they leave Islam?

Most verses that speak of killing disbelievers were revealed in times of war and ALL of them imply war ONLY as an act of defense:
"And slay these transgressors wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worst than slaying. And fight them not in and near the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them. Such is the requital for the disbelievers. "(chapter 2, verse 192)

The Qur'an says to wipe the infidels out to the last, and Allah defines infidels as christians. Muhammed lead 75 raids, he raided caravans for booty, they was never anything religious about them. The Meccans fought against Muhammed to protect their property.

and do not forget the suffering the muslims in mecca faced before Hijra. They were persecuted relentlessly; and yet when Muhammad conquered mecca 10 years after Hijra, he did not massacre the people that had so badly persecuted his followers and him, he forgave them.

Suffering? What did they do exactly?

as for womens rights, you fail to see that in Pre-Muhammad Arabia daughters were buried alive, and women had no rights at all. Muhammad and Islam came and gave women some respect. In fact, the muslim army once even had a female general; did this ever happen in Rome?

Yes, now their just sex toys and property to their husbands.

Islam is a religion founded in a time of crusades and wars; self-defense was neccessary. However, the same rules do NOT apply to modern times. anyone who uses the word of god as an excuse to murder innocents is a liar and will be dealt with on the day of judgement.

As i've explained before, Muhammed raided the Meccans and the Jews. took all their property and sold it to get weapons and armor.

and what about all the good teachings of islam? what of the verses that tell muslims to give to the poor, to protect orphans and the sick, to help our neighbors in any way? people these days focus only on those parts of islam that they can obscure to make islam out to be a evil religion.

Ya, then it goes on to tell the faithful muslim to further Allah's cause which is Jihad.

read the entire quran, cover to cover, if you want real insight into this religion, rather than a narrow-minded peek through a keyhole of obscurity.

I've read form the Qur'an and Hadiths. I know how demented Islam is.

 

[clone]

as i said before, interpretation differs greatly, and knowing when a verse was revealed, and who exactly the quran is talking about is helpful. This particular verse contains the arabic phrase Qatl - which means to kill, but can also mean to sever ties with. in other words, the verse is saying have nothing to do with those that turn away from islam.

the reason that the quran is preserved in arabic is for misinterpretations like these. i can point out verses just like this in the bible, like "Every purpose is established by counsel: and with good advice make war." (Proverbs 20:18) and "Only the trees which thou knowest that they be not trees for meat, thou shalt destroy and cut them down; and thou shalt build bulwarks against the city that maketh war with thee, until it be subdued." (Deutronomy 20:20)


Allah does not say the infidels are christians, in fact christians are seen as "Ehle-Kitab" or "people of the book" in the Quran, and are seen as righteous people.

Every raid that Muhammad lead out was to protect his people. Anything other than that is a lie, and cannot be proven.

The meccans PERSECUTED him, which means "The act or practice of persecuting on the basis of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs that differ from those of the persecutor" (dictionary.com). he did nothing to offend them, only offered them the truth. in the same ignorant manner i can say that Jesus raided Jerusalem with his disciples, and was crucified for this reason.

Why dont you research the suffering that Muhammad and his followers went through at Mecca.

As for women; yes some evil men in the middle east do abuse their wives, but that is not islam. i can say the same thing about numerous white men who have been charged with domestic abuse and rape. that doesnt mean that Christianity tells you to rape or beat your wives, does it?

A common misconception in todays world, due to the arab traitors that call themselves muslims, is the perception of Jihad as terrorism. Jihad means "a struggle to protect faith", it has nothing to do with fighting or terrorism. granted, at a time jihad of the sword was neccessary to defend Islam from complete destruction, but those days are gone. The Jihad that muslims SHOULD be doing is the Jihad of the tongue; defending Islam from the close-minded fools that think its about killing innocents. This debate right now can be considered Jihad.

I find it funny that you can call the Quran demented, when it is the Bible that is telling fantasy stories of "Ascension" and "ressurection". Most logical people would find it the other way around; I however, respect other people's religions and beliefs....

 

[Prophetxxx]

Tabori IX:113''Allah permits you to shut them in seperate rooms and to beat them, but not severly. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an.''
Bukhari:V3B48N826''The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to that of a man?' The woman said, 'Yes' He said, 'That is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind.'' Muhammed was a sexual deviant, he had married a sex year old then had sex with her when she was nine, that would be pedophilia. He lusted upon his stepsons wife then married her, that would be incest. He raped Jewish captives and let his militants rape the captives to.

 

[Prophetxxx]

Qur'an 33:60''Truly, if the hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitaters in the city do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy-a fierce slaughter-murdered, a horrible murdering.'' Well that's pretty grewsome, but it only gets worse.


Ishaq:204''Men, do you know what you are pledging yourselves to in swearing allegiance to this man?' 'Yes. In swearing allegiance to Muhammed we are pledging to wage war against all mankind.''
Qur'an 4:77''Lord, why have you ordained fighting for us, why have you made war compulsory?''


Qur'an 2:190''Fight in Allah's cause those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah likes not the transgressers.'' Islamic apologists use this passage in the western world to infer that Islamic fighting can only be defensive and moderate. Yet in context, that is not what it says Qur'an 2:191''And kill them wherever you find them and catch them, and drive them out from where they turned you out; for al-fitnah(polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.'' Slaying them ''wherever you find them and catch them'' is clearly offensive, not defensive.

 

[Prophetxxx]

Qur'an 8:7''Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words:''Wipe the infidels out to the last.''
Qur'an 5:17''Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, 'The messiah, son of Mary, is God.''

 

[clone]

again you fail to read the verse correctly, and you didnt even read the entire verse.

"And remember when Allah promised you one of the two parties that it should be yours, and you wished that the one unarmed should be yours, but allah desired to establish the Truth by His words and to cut off the root of the disbelievers".

This verse was revealed during a time of war, when the Meccan army was advancing of Medina. A Meccan unarmed caravan was also approaching. Allah commanded the Muslims to meet the entire army, rather than a small caravan.

The two arabic words in question here, "Dabir" can be seen as the beginning of something, or the root. Some translators can thus see the verse as saying "Wipe them out to the last", but if that were true, the verse would contradict what the Muslims actually did at that time. They confronted the army, rather than the caravan.

Indeed the quran does condemn the worshipping of any god save Allah, but the Quran does not say to attack them; like ive said before, the quran uses war as self-defense alone. Look at history if you doubt the quran. Througout the 700 years the muslims ruled Spain not a single drop of Christian or Jewish blood was spilt offensively.

in 33:60 the quran describes the jews, and says that they will be slain wherever they go, it does not say that muslims are the ones who should do it.

Ishaq? There is no chapter in the quran named Ishaq. If that is a book of hadith, then it is utterly flawed in meaning. The muslims were commanded to spread Islam, but not "wage war"

4:77, Again, the quran makes war compulsory only in defense.

2:190, Al-Fitna is not polytheism. It is meant as oppression, or persecution. Only during those times are muslims allowed to raise a weapon. ANd the quran commands us to use military strength and tactics so that we can stop the persecutors before they can kill any muslims.

Tabori?! There is no chapter called Tabori. Again, most hadith are not trustworthy. IF there was such a hadith, it was not in the same context. And like i have said before, comapared to the condition of women before Muhammad, Islam gave many women their rights. And Muhammad never married a 6 year old. Wherever you are getting your information from is not a very reliable source. And prisoners were held with the utmost respect; even saying that Muhammad ever raped anyone, let alone a prisoner, is foolish.

i strongly reccomend you review your information with 2 or more sources before posting it on here.

 

[Prophetxxx]

You keep saying Islamic fighting can only be defensive, Ok then. Why did Muhammed and his militants attack Egypt? What had they done to provok them. Are how bout the Byzintines? Why did they attack them? What did they do to provok the muslims? Like i said before, Islam was just a tool Muhammed used to gain power, sex, and money. As for the Hiadiths, without them there's no chronology to the Qur'an, there's no context to the Qur'an without the Hadiths. Without the Hadiths, we don't know how Islam formed or what the Prophet was like.

 

[clone]

Muhammad only attacked Mecca because he was forced to. His followers were not allowed to perform the pilgramige; thus he retook Mecca by force - but only as when all else had failed. He even tried to make peace with the Meccans with a treaty - the Treaty of Huddabiya, which the Meccans broke. Thus it was neccessary for Muhammad to defend his followers, and conquer Mecca. But again, it was not a bloody revenge. Not a single person who asked for forgiveness was denied it.

Egypt was the same. Muslim travellers were being persecuted for preaching Islam; thus the Caliph Omar, not Muhammad, conquered Egypt.

you cannot rewrite history as you see fit. Research it yourself using an UNBIASED medium, and you will find the true Islam - Muhammad never wanted power; His victory feast after conquering Mecca was only a few drops of vinegar and bread. If he wanted power and money, wouldnt he have treated himself to the wealth of Arabia? He gave all he ever came upon in charity, as did his followers.

Yes, Muhammad had 4 wives, but that was because being a single woman meant you were unsafe and probably very poor. He married only to help those poor women get off the streets, and live a decent life.

The Hadith are indeed the context of the quran, but that doesnt mean they cant be corrupted. The Quran is the word of god, and God has promised to preserve it. Hadith are sayings of MEN, men who can be corrupted and who can and will lie whenever they feel the need to.

The two books of hadith you mentioned are not even recognized widely as real books of Hadith due to the fact that many of the sayings in them are inaccurate.

 

[vergiss]

Well i've been studying Islam for a while now, and what i've discovered is not pretty. I'm sure i'm not the only one who knows how evil this doctrine is. I simply can't understand how people can claim that Islam is peaceful and noble with such evidence that leads to the contrary.

Wait. Didn't you say you don't like people calling other people evil based on religious reasons? *sigh*

Why did the Christians attack Jerusalem many times throughout the Middle Ages? Why did the Christians brutally murder and torture thousands of "witches", Jews and other "heretics"? Why did the Christians kidnap millions of Africans and damn them and their children to centuries of slavery?

 

[cnredd]

again you fail to read the verse correctly, and you didnt even read the entire verse.

You are trying to "correct" the wrong people...

Telling someone OTHER than a radical Muslim that they are interpreting the verses wrong does no help...You should be saying this TO the radical Muslims, for they are the ones perverting your religion...

"jihad" is an eternal struggle...It is NOT meant to portray anything about a "holy war"...

When traveling to Hajj, Saudi Arabia only allows certain versions of the Koran...only the most strict...all others are taken away....and then burned...

The Wahabbist version of the Koran purposely mis-interprets quotes from the Koran and injects words like "Jews" and "infidels" where there was no mention of this in the Arabic version...which is usually on the very same page...

So please redirect your frustration at those who originally misinterpret...If one who does not study the Koran finds a quote from a radical Muslim or from a website with the quote misinterpreted as you see, you should vent against the source and say how THEY are wrong...not the ones passing the information along...

 

[vergiss]

You are trying to "correct" the wrong people...

Telling someone OTHER than a radical Muslim that they are interpreting the verses wrong does no help...You should be saying this TO the radical Muslims, for they are the ones perverting your religion...

"jihad" is an eternal struggle...It is NOT meant to portray anything about a "holy war"...

When traveling to Hajj, Saudi Arabia only allows certain versions of the Koran...only the most strict...all others are taken away....and then burned...

The Wahabbist version of the Koran purposely mis-interprets quotes from the Koran and injects words like "Jews" and "infidels" where there was no mention of this in the Arabic version...which is usually on the very same page...

So please redirect your frustration at those who originally misinterpret...If one who does not study the Koran finds a quote from a radical Muslim or from a website with the quote misinterpreted as you see, you should vent against the source and say how THEY are wrong...not the ones passing the information along...

I see you're point, but the ones passing the information are obviously incorrect, too. Just like a neo-Nazi quoting David Irving, or a Scientologist on a baseless rant about medication.

 

[clone]

You are trying to "correct" the wrong people...

Telling someone OTHER than a radical Muslim that they are interpreting the verses wrong does no help...You should be saying this TO the radical Muslims, for they are the ones perverting your religion...

"jihad" is an eternal struggle...It is NOT meant to portray anything about a "holy war"...

When traveling to Hajj, Saudi Arabia only allows certain versions of the Koran...only the most strict...all others are taken away....and then burned...

The Wahabbist version of the Koran purposely mis-interprets quotes from the Koran and injects words like "Jews" and "infidels" where there was no mention of this in the Arabic version...which is usually on the very same page...

So please redirect your frustration at those who originally misinterpret...If one who does not study the Koran finds a quote from a radical Muslim or from a website with the quote misinterpreted as you see, you should vent against the source and say how THEY are wrong...not the ones passing the information along...

i was assuming that this person, who claims to have "read the quran and hadith", was voicing their own opinion; not just quoting someone else.

 

[cherokee]

Um...actually those people who supposedly hijacked Islam, are actually being good muslims and following what Allah commands. As for the GOP, yeah you're right, but they are straying from their original views. The terrorists are following what their scriptures command of them.

Hmmmmm how about this F**K YOU!
Those terrorists are twisted sick-dog-humping-sons of goat molesters.
And people who support them or justify their actions are the SAME!

If following the Koran or however the retarded book is spelled means to kill innocent people THEN every copy of it should be BURNED!

Islamic terrorists are nothing but p*ssies they blame the world for their own failures!

 

[Apostle13]

Hmmmmm how about this F**K YOU!
Those terrorists are twisted sick-dog-humping-sons of goat molesters.
And people who support them or justify their actions are the SAME!

If following the Koran or however the retarded book is spelled means to kill innocent people THEN every copy of it should be BURNED!

Islamic terrorists are nothing but p*ssies they blame the world for their own failures!

...While I do share in your sentiment... Although your eloquence of speech is beyond my own limits of expressionism. I just wanted to point out that I think the Prophetxxx is one of us. AKA...non-muslim. :2wave:

 

[vergiss]

Erm, have you ever read the Old Testament? It isn't exactly bunny rabbits and sunshine, either.

 

[cherokee]

Erm, have you ever read the Old Testament? It isn't exactly bunny rabbits and sunshine, either.

No its not...

In college I had to write a mid term paper on a lesser know serial/mass murders.
Mine was called “Murder in the name of God”. It impressed my CCJ professor and enraged the Dean.


If I did jump the gun on Prophetxxx I apologize..

 

[Prophetxxx]

Telling someone OTHER than a radical Muslim that they are interpreting the verses wrong does no help...You should be saying this TO the radical Muslims, for they are the ones perverting your religion...

They're following their religion like good muslims.

"jihad" is an eternal struggle...It is NOT meant to portray anything about a "holy war"...

Jihad is not a inner struggle, every time Jihad is mentioned in the Qur'an and Hadith, it is always linked to violence.

When traveling to Hajj, Saudi Arabia only allows certain versions of the Koran...only the most strict...all others are taken away....and then burned...

The Wahabbist version of the Koran purposely mis-interprets quotes from the Koran and injects words like "Jews" and "infidels" where there was no mention of this in the Arabic version...which is usually on the very same page...

You're kidding right? If there weren't any Jews or Infidels, then who was Muhammed fighting and murdering?

 

[Iriemon]

Erm, have you ever read the Old Testament? It isn't exactly bunny rabbits and sunshine, either.

This is true, if we were to follow our religion like good Christians and Jews, we would:

o Put to death anyone who curses their mother or father. [Exodus 21:17]
o Put to death anyone who commits adultery. [Lev 20:9]
o Put to death anyone who commits a homosexual act. [Lev 20:9]
o Put to death anyone who attacks their mother or father [Exodus 21:15]
o Put to death a kidnapper [Exodus 21:16]
o Put to death a person whose animal causes the death of another, when he should have known the animal is dangerous. [Exodus 21:28]
o Kill sorceress and stone a medium. [Exodus 21:18][Lev 20:27]
o Burn a priest's daughter if she becomes a prostitute. [Lev 21:9]

And then there are the commands as to those who do not whorship the proper God (ie Muslims):

o Stone anyone who curses God. [Lev 24:13]
o Destroy anyone who sacrificies to any other God [Exodus 21:20]
o Put to death anyone (whether an alien or native-born) who blasphemes the Name of the Lord. [Lev 24:16]

And then we have the acts of Moses, carried on in God's name, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of men, women, boys and babies (they saved the virgin girls for the soldiers) because the victims did not believe in the right God. See Number 21, 31, Deut. 2. And we haven't even gotten to Joshua, and the other slaughters of non-believers sanctioned by God according to the Bible.

I simply can't understand how people can claim that Christianity or Judeaism are peaceful and noble with such evidence that leads to the contrary.

 

[Prophetxxx]

This is true, if we were to follow our religion like good Christians and Jews, we would:

o Put to death anyone who curses their mother or father. [Exodus 21:17]
o Put to death anyone who commits adultery. [Lev 20:9]
o Put to death anyone who commits a homosexual act. [Lev 20:9]
o Put to death anyone who attacks their mother or father [Exodus 21:15]
o Put to death a kidnapper [Exodus 21:16]
o Put to death a person whose animal causes the death of another, when he should have known the animal is dangerous. [Exodus 21:28]
o Kill sorceress and stone a medium. [Exodus 21:18][Lev 20:27]
o Burn a priest's daughter if she becomes a prostitute. [Lev 21:9]

And then there are the commands as to those who do not whorship the proper God (ie Muslims):

o Stone anyone who curses God. [Lev 24:13]
o Destroy anyone who sacrificies to any other God [Exodus 21:20]
o Put to death anyone who blasphemes the Name of the Lord. [Lev 24:16]

And then we have the acts of Moses, carried on in God's name, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of men, women, boys and babies (they saved the virgin girls for the soldiers) because the victims did not believe in the right God. See Number 21, 31, Deut. 2. And we haven't even gotten to Joshua, and the other slaughters of non-believers sanctioned by God according to the Bible.

I simply can't understand how people can claim that Christianity or Judeaism are peaceful and noble with such evidence that leads to the contrary.

You're right! If we were still under the Law. That's over with. Those verses don't apply to us today.

 

[Iriemon]

You're right! If we were still under the Law. That's over with. Those verses don't apply to us today.

Oh ... you mean we aren't supposed to take the words in the text at face value, but we are supposed to interpret them in context.

 

[Prophetxxx]

Oh ... you mean we aren't supposed to take the words in the text at face value, but we are supposed to interpret them in context.

Yes, that's correct. Islam in context is a religion of war. Muhammed was a terrorist, murderer, rapist, looter. The Qur'an tells muslims to follow his example. And if someone follows his example, they become bad people.

 

[Iriemon]

Yes, that's correct. Islam in context is a religion of war. Muhammed was a terrorist, murderer, rapist, looter. The Qur'an tells muslims to follow his example. And if someone follows his example, they become bad people.

I have read interpretations of the Koran in context that are different than yours.

 

[Prophetxxx]

I have read interpretations of the Koran in context that are different than yours.

Ok, what does Qur'an 9:5 say in your Qur'an? And everything that's known about Muhammed is from the Hadith.

 

[Sir_Alec]

:doh why can't we just stop bashing Islam? Whatta ya guys say we start hating the Jews again*? Because this is the exact kind of misinformation and lying that the nazis spread about the jews to make them look bad.

*(im joking)