Islam

[Prophetxxx]

A Jew who believes in Christ is still a Jew, but a Christian who believes in Allah is no longer a Christian. No wonder people fight about religion so much.

YAY!!!!!!! You get it.

 

[vergiss]

A Jew who believes in Christ is still a Jew...

What the hell? Who died and made you Moses? Messianic Jews are not bloody Jews! Half the time they're not even converts from the Jewish faith! If you reject Jewish law by believing in Jesus as the messiah, you're no longer a Jew. Full stop. No other Jewish sect accepts them as Jews. Believing Jesus was the messiah is pretty much heresy to us. They're about as Jewish as if a Christian were to start worshipping Buddha instead of Jesus. It's a complete and utter contradiction.

Do not be so bloody arrogant as to speak about my religion when you have no f**king idea what you're on about!

 

[Iriemon]

What the hell? Who died and made you Moses? Messianic Jews are not bloody Jews! Half the time they're not even converts from the Jewish faith! If you reject Jewish law by believing in Jesus as the messiah, you're no longer a Jew. Full stop. No other Jewish sect accepts them as Jews. Believing Jesus was the messiah is pretty much heresy to us. They're about as Jewish as if a Christian were to start worshipping Buddha instead of Jesus. It's a complete and utter contradiction.

Do not be so bloody arrogant as to speak about my religion when you have no f**king idea what you're on about!

It is putting form over substance, isn't it?

The thing I find inconsistent (hypocritical?) about conservative fundamentalist Christians is that happily point to the OT to support their political views on gays (Jesus said nothing about homosexuals) or abortion (Jesus said nothing about that either -- neither does the OT forbid it, for that matter), and their other favored conservative causes. They point to this from from Matthew 5:17 to support the authority of the OT:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

But then, when you asked them about some of the other things in the OT, like how it's OK to beat your slaves (as long as you don't kill them, then you have to pay a fine), and the stuff I posted earlier, you get: "You're right! If we were still under the Law. That's over with. Those verses don't apply to us today."

What the conservative "fundamentalists" do is interpret the OT (and NT) to support their political agenda, all the while maintaining their position is God's word and therefore the truth, and on that there can be no compromise! It is the exact same thing that the conservative fundamentalists Muslems do to try to justify their acts on religious grounds.

The evil, IMO, is not Islam as a religion, but people who manipulate interpretations of religious text to support violence or hate, and maintain that their position is sanctioned by God.

 

[Apostle13]

What the hell? Who died and made you Moses? Messianic Jews are not bloody Jews! Half the time they're not even converts from the Jewish faith! If you reject Jewish law by believing in Jesus as the messiah, you're no longer a Jew. Full stop. No other Jewish sect accepts them as Jews. Believing Jesus was the messiah is pretty much heresy to us. They're about as Jewish as if a Christian were to start worshipping Buddha instead of Jesus. It's a complete and utter contradiction.

Do not be so bloody arrogant as to speak about my religion when you have no f**king idea what you're on about!

Jews are not solely defined by what they believe. Else there would be no need for labels, Messianic, Orthodox, Secular, etc. They are genetically identifiable.

 

[Iriemon]

Jews are not solely defined by what they believe. Else there would be no need for labels, Messianic, Orthodox, Secular, etc. They are genetically identifiable.

Jews are not solely defined by what they believe? By definition, a "Jew" is a follower of the Jewish religion, which does not include the belief that Jesus was the messiah or son of God. People can put whatever labels they want, in one sense, all Christians are Jews since they believe in the OT and that is where the Christian religion came from. All Muslems are Jews in the same way. It's semantics. I hate arguing semantics.

 

[Prophetxxx]

It is putting form over substance, isn't it?

The thing I find inconsistent (hypocritical?) about conservative fundamentalist Christians is that happily point to the OT to support their political views on gays (Jesus said nothing about homosexuals) or abortion (Jesus said nothing about that either -- neither does the OT forbid it, for that matter), and their other favored conservative causes. They point to this from from Matthew 5:17 to support the authority of the OT:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

But then, when you asked them about some of the other things in the OT, like how it's OK to beat your slaves (as long as you don't kill them, then you have to pay a fine), and the stuff I posted earlier, you get: "You're right! If we were still under the Law. That's over with. Those verses don't apply to us today."

What the conservative "fundamentalists" do is interpret the OT (and NT) to support their political agenda, all the while maintaining their position is God's word and therefore the truth, and on that there can be no compromise! It is the exact same thing that the conservative fundamentalists Muslems do to try to justify their acts on religious grounds.

The evil, IMO, is not Islam as a religion, but people who manipulate interpretations of religious text to support violence or hate, and maintain that their position is sanctioned by God.

When you start seeing Christians murdering, stealing, wiping infidels out to the last then will talk. Read the New Testament, It explains pretty clearly what a christian aought to be like, and explains Christ's fulfillment of the Law.
You know what, just for you, I'm going to show you something. If after that you still don't understand, then there's nothing more i can do.

 

[Iriemon]

When you start seeing Christians murdering, stealing, wiping infidels out to the last then will talk. Read the New Testament, It explains pretty clearly what a christian aought to be like, and explains Christ's fulfillment of the Law.
You know what, just for you, I'm going to show you something. If after that you still don't understand, then there's nothing more i can do.

Prophetxxx -- are you kidding me? I have already mentioned the genocidal massacres depicted in the Bible. How about the massacre of Jerusalem by the Chritian Crusaders in 1099?

Many Muslims sought shelter in the Al-Aqsa Mosque, where, according to one famous account in Gesta, "...the slaughter was so great that our men waded in blood up to their ankles..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(1099)

How about the hundreds of thousands of deaths by torture by the Christian inquisition?

Just a couple of the many examples in history of Christians murdering, stealing, wiping infidels out to the last. Let's talk.

 

[Prophetxxx]

Prophetxxx -- are you kidding me? I have already mentioned the genocidal massacres depicted in the Bible. How about the massacre of Jerusalem by the Chritian Crusaders in 1099?

Many Muslims sought shelter in the Al-Aqsa Mosque, where, according to one famous account in Gesta, "...the slaughter was so great that our men waded in blood up to their ankles..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(1099)

How about the hundreds of thousands of deaths by torture by the Christian inquisition?

Just a couple of the many examples in history of Christians murdering, stealing, wiping infidels out to the last. Let's talk.

Simply put, they weren't Christians. They were going against Yahshua's teachings.

 

[Apostle13]

Jews are not solely defined by what they believe? By definition, a "Jew" is a follower of the Jewish religion, which does not include the belief that Jesus was the messiah or son of God. People can put whatever labels they want, in one sense, all Christians are Jews since they believe in the OT and that is where the Christian religion came from. All Muslems are Jews in the same way. It's semantics. I hate arguing semantics.

It is a right of heritage... However, I am unable to locate the link upholding the genetic claim... Only to say it is an ongoing study concerning the Y chromosomes... So in safety/credibility I'll retract from this for now.

 

[Iriemon]

Simply put, they weren't Christians. They were going against Yahshua's teachings.

They weren't Christians? But they had those cool crosses on their shields.

 

[Prophetxxx]

They weren't Christians? But they had those cool crosses on their shields.

They had His symbols, nothing more.

 

[Iriemon]

They had His symbols, nothing more.

No, had much more. They had the belief that they were Christians, even if you don't think they were. They marched not as forces of a nation but as Crusaders for Christianity. They were fighting for a Chritian cause -- to liberate the holy land from the infidels. The were sanctioned by the Chritian church.

You condemn all Muslems for the acts of a few. But the similar acts of Christians are inapplicable because "they weren't Christians". Another double standard.

 

[Prophetxxx]

No, had much more. They had the belief that they were Christians, even if you don't think they were. They marched not as forces of a nation but as Crusaders for Christianity. They were fighting for a Chritian cause -- to liberate the holy land from the infidels. The were sanctioned by the Chritian church.

Ok first off, Just because the church told call them to do something doesn't mean that they were following Yahshua's example. The church at that time was corrupt anyway. If you can't distingush between followers of Yahweh and hypocrites, then i'm sorry. But i can assure you, the Crusaders were not Christian.

 

[Prophetxxx]

You condemn all Muslems for the acts of a few. But the similar acts of Christians are inapplicable because "they weren't Christians". Another double standard.

I don't condemn muslims(the peaceful ones anyway). I condemn Islam, Muhammed, Allah. Thanks to them over a billion souls have been decieved and condemned.

Just look at the way the first muslims were and compare them to Yahshua's disciples, You'll see how Islam coroded these mens minds. They believed rape, murder, terrorism, stealing were good, and that whoever wasn't in submission to Muhammed was evil.

 

[Iriemon]

Ok first off, Just because the church told call them to do something doesn't mean that they were following Yahshua's example. The church at that time was corrupt anyway. If you can't distingush between followers of Yahweh and hypocrites, then i'm sorry. But i can assure you, the Crusaders were not Christian.

Maybe some folks think the terrorists who targeted innocent people weren't Muslems.

 

[Prophetxxx]

Maybe some folks think the terrorists who targeted innocent people weren't Muslems.

They may believe that, but that simply is not true. The man they're ordered to emulate was a terrorist. Muslims who do not fight in Allah's cause(jihad) are called hypocrites, Allah calls them the lowest of creatures. Muslims like Bin Laden are being good muslims.

 

[Iriemon]

They may believe that, but that simply is not true. The man they're ordered to emulate was a terrorist. Muslims who do not fight in Allah's cause(jihad) are called hypocrites, Allah calls them the lowest of creatures. Muslims like Bin Laden are being good muslims.

I think I understand your position now.

 

[Prophetxxx]

I think I understand your position now.

Wait just a second:shock:. Were you just asking and saying all these things just to understand my position?:doh .

 

[justone]

But i can assure you, the Crusaders were not Christian.

I can assure you they were, and they were not bad ones. As a Christian I have to take my share responsibility, even if I am not a Catholic or many other dominations. Don't look away from the truth even if you don't like it. The truth sets you free. There would be nothing to afraid of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages
The Christian Church, the only centralized institution to survive the fall of the western Roman Empire intact, was the major unifying cultural influence, preserving its selection from Latin learning, maintaining the art of writing, and a centralized administration … The centralized administrative systems of the Romans did not withstand the changes for lack of a tax base, and the institutional support for large scale chattel slavery largely disappeared.
The Islamic invasions of the 7th and 8th centuries, which conquered the Levant, North Africa, Spain, Portugal and some of the Mediterranean islands (including Sicily), increased localization by halting much of what remained of seaborne commerce….This background in the Christian West must be matched with that in the Muslim East. Muslim presence in the Holy Land goes back to the initial Arab conquest of Palestine in the 7th century. This did not interfere much with pilgrimage to Christian holy sites or the security of monasteries and Christian communities in the Holy Land of Christendom, and western Europeans were not much concerned with the loss of far-away Jerusalem when, in the ensuing decades and centuries, they were themselves faced with invasions by Muslims (justone:ends don’t meet???) and other hostile non-Christians such as the Vikings and Magyars. However, the Muslim armies' successes were putting strong pressure on the Eastern Orthodox Byzantine Empire. A turning point in western attitudes towards the east came in the year 1009, when the Fatimid caliph of Cairo, al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, had the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem destroyed.
Much earlier, of course(justone –what do you mean “of course”???) , the Christian homelands of Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Egypt, and so on had been conquered by Muslim armies. This long history of losing territories to a religious enemy, as well as a powerful pincer movement on all of Western Europe, created a powerful motive to respond to Byzantine emperor Alexius I's call for holy war to defend Christendom, and to recapture the lost lands, starting at the most important one of all, Jerusalem itself.
The violence against the Orthodox Christians culminated in the sack of Constantinople in 1204, The fact that Western Christians had been mistreated in the past (by Constantinople) has never justified this sack in the eyes of the Church. Indeed, as soon as the Pope learned of the sack of Constantinople, all who took part were immediately excommunicated

 

[Prophetxxx]

I want to bring your attention to two incredibly important historical facts. First, Pope Benedict IV: he reigned in 1033 AD, presisely 1000 year after Christ's resurrection. Benedict became like Muhammed, demonic, fixated on the occult, demented, delirious, and lascivious. The church became corrupt, focused on rituals, suppression, and money. With power hungry men at the helm, it splintered, ultimately causing cleric and king to send men off on fool-heartly crusades.

 

[Prophetxxx]

The second fact is that the crusaders weren't Christains. They coudn't have been. Four centuries had passed since the last sermon was given in a language common to the people of Europe. The first Bible to be printed in the vulgar tongue, John Wycliffe's, wouldn't find quill for another four centuries. To be a ''christain'' one most know Christ. He could not have been known to the men who fought. They carried His symbols, nothing more.

 

[vergiss]

Jews are not solely defined by what they believe. Else there would be no need for labels, Messianic, Orthodox, Secular, etc. They are genetically identifiable.

It is a right of heritage... However, I am unable to locate the link upholding the genetic claim... Only to say it is an ongoing study concerning the Y chromosomes... So in safety/credibility I'll retract from this for now.

What about female Jews? We don't bloody HAVE Y chromosomes! :doh

As I said, the Messianic "Jews", more often than not, aren't even converts from Judaism. Therefore, they have about as much claim to being of Jewish "heritage" as my poodle. In the religious sense, THEY ARE NOT JEWS. What if, say, Muhammadean Christians existed - would other Christians consider them Christian?

A Jew who becomes a Christian, Muslim, whatever, is no longer a Jew. Don't try giving me this crap about "heritage" because you simply have no bloody idea what you're on about. I'm Jewish. You're a Christian who thinks non-Christians are heathens. How the hell would you know more than me? :lol:

 

[vergiss]

The second fact is that the crusaders weren't Christains. They coudn't have been. Four centuries had passed since the last sermon was given in a language common to the people of Europe. The first Bible to be printed in the vulgar tongue, John Wycliffe's, wouldn't find quill for another four centuries. To be a ''christain'' one most know Christ. He could not have been known to the men who fought. They carried His symbols, nothing more.

ROFL.

My God, you're delusional.

 

[Iriemon]

The second fact is that the crusaders weren't Christains. They coudn't have been. Four centuries had passed since the last sermon was given in a language common to the people of Europe. The first Bible to be printed in the vulgar tongue, John Wycliffe's, wouldn't find quill for another four centuries. To be a ''christain'' one most know Christ. He could not have been known to the men who fought. They carried His symbols, nothing more.

How sad, all those folkings living all those centuries before Wycliffe's Bible, doing what they thought was right, believing in Christ as their saviour, going to fight and die for it, and now all burning in hell because they weren't really Christians.

 

[Prophetxxx]

How sad, all those folkings living all those centuries before Wycliffe's Bible, doing what they thought was right, believing in Christ as their saviour, going to fight and die for it, and now all burning in hell because they weren't really Christians.

Yes, it is sad. That's what happens when men use religion as a political tool to gain power and money. It's sad that Constantine turned what was a personal relationship with Yahweh, to a religion with rituals that were derived from paganism, thus condemning millions of souls.