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No, the court found that the industry standard was much lower.
Where are these warning and yes Starbucks does serve coffee that hot and hotter!! Show me this law or regulation that they were warned about?
There is a federal ruling.. 170-205 degrees is industry standard.. Have a nice day!! Next time you are going to spout off crap, do the rest of us a favor and look it up!!
Food Safety and the Law - Defending and Preventing a Coffee Burn Lawsuit
I can call it whatever I want and the Jury was wrong.. Just like the SCOTUS was wrong for giving companies the sames rights as people.. Don't think for a minutes that rulings are always correct.. Look at the Anthony case?? Did the Jury make a mistake there?? To many it did.. So what the Jury awarded her is irrelevent..
The Judge was a moron for even letting it see a jury.. The product was safe, it was never meant to have the lid removed and then placed between the knees of an 80 year old wearing sweat pants.. She should have done what most other folks do.. Order her coffee with cream and surgar already in it, or found a safe place to sit and add her condiments safely.. This is all her fault and she has nobody to blame but herself..
Are you the kind of person that is going to say that we need safe products when someone blows their hair dry while sitting in a tub full of water?? Get a clue here Maggie.. There is nothing wrong with McDonald's cup.. None of them are designed to be held between a person's knees while sitting in a car.. That is what cup holders are for.. Yes they had them back then.. She took the lid off, so it has a real hard time working while it is off.. Why so many of you have issues understanding that one is beyond me.. Are you going to be one of those peeps that bitch when someone is killed while not wearing their bullet proof vest??
This was a frivolous law suit.. There is no other way to describe it.. The fact that she won shows how disfunctional our legal system really is..
Umm, you can say whatever you want. Doesn't make it true
And they did park the car to add the condiments. And the court determined that the coffee "was not fit for human consumption". Doesn't sound "safe" to me.
And the lid wasn't off. You pretty much got all the facts wrong
On February 27, 1992, Stella Liebeck, a 79-year-old woman from Albuquerque, New Mexico, ordered a 49-cent cup of coffee from the drive-through window of a local McDonald's restaurant. Liebeck was in the passenger's seat of her Ford Probe, and her nephew Chris parked the car so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her coffee. Liebeck placed the coffee cup between her knees and pulled the far side of the lid toward her to remove it. In the process, she spilled the entire cup of coffee on her lap.[10] Liebeck was wearing cotton sweatpants; they absorbed the coffee and held it against her skin, scalding her thighs, buttocks, and groin.[11] Liebeck was taken to the hospital, where it was determined that she had suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent.[12] She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. During this period, Liebeck lost 20 pounds (9 kg, nearly 20% of her body weight), reducing her down to 83 pounds (38 kg).[13] Two years of medical treatment followed.
Prove it wrong then.. I already cited federal rulings.. That is more than you have.. So?? Put up or shut up!!
McDonald’s own quality assurance manager
testified that McDonald’s enforced a policy requirement that
all coffee be served at 185 degrees, give or take five degrees.38
He also admitted that its coffee was not “fit for consumption”
because it would cause scalding injuries to the mouth and
throat if drunk by the consumer.39
Q: [Y]ou know, as a matter of fact, that coffee is a
hazard, selling it at 180 to 190 degrees, don’t you?
A: I have testified before, the fact that this coffee
can cause burns.
Q: It is hazardous at this temperature?
A: At that high temperature the coffee is a hazard.
. . .
Q: If customers attempt to swallow that coffee, isn’t
it a fact that it will scald their throat or esophagus?
A: Yes, under those conditions, if they could get
the coffee in their throat, that could happen, yes. .
. . 40
The same McDonald’s quality assurance manager
continued to testify, illustrating McDonald’s culpability:
Q: So. . . when somebody buys a cup of coffee
and it’s sold to them at McDonald’s and they go to
sit down and drink it in less than five minutes, it’s
not fit for consumption to drink, if consumption
means to drink? . . .
A: It’s perfectly fit to open the top and add cream
and sugar and really dilute the product as far as
temperature goes and it probably would be very fit
for consumption . . . .
Q: If you don’t mind getting burned it’s fit for
consumption. My question is, is it fit to be drunk,
actually fluid going down your esophagus?
A: I think I already answered that.
Q: And the answer is no, it’s not, isn’t it?
A: Yes, we answered that.41
No, the court found that the industry standard was much lower.
The Actual Facts about the Mcdonalds' Coffee Case
And you didn't cite any federal ruling. You linked to a website run by lawyers who defend restaurants from lawsuits for burning people with hot coffee
http://www.jtexconsumerlaw.com/V11N1/Coffee.pdf
Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That is what I thought.. You don't have nothing.. I have seen all those.. None of them give rulings on the temperature of coffee or the industry standard.. Thanks for playing..
Are the feds coffee experts?
IF that was true then why would a coffee lovers site say that the brewer should maintain a water temperature of 195-205?
How To Brew Coffee - National Coffee Association
Your brewer should maintain a water temperature between 195 - 205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction.
That is according Bunn. Even going by Bunn's site a 55ºF to 175ºF" coffee will still produce 3rd degree burns. According the NCA coffee should immediately be served after brewing and that is after it is being brewed at 195 - 205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction.If it can not be served immediately then the temperature should be maintained at 180 - 185 degrees Fahrenheit. Regardless of temperature the old lady is the one that is a 100% responsible for her burns.
How To Brew Coffee - National Coffee Association
Should a razor blade company make their blades duller or out of plastic because lots of people cut themselves with razors?
The real problem with this stat is that it completely ignores the actual statistics. It was 700 people over a 10 year period, 70 a year. At the time, McDonald's was selling over 1 billion cups of coffee a year. Hence, the probability was 70 in a billion, which is essentially zero.
She put the cup between her knews.. She took the lid off to add condiments.. No two scenerios could have happened.. The driver excelerated and the cup tipped over toward her, since the injuries were on the bottoms of her thighs, that scenenario fits.. The other option is that the cup just fell back in the slant the the passanger seat.. Again spilling in her lap and the seat.. She was wearing cotton pants which soaked up a lot of coffee and held it to her skin..
I think the FDA knows more than you do yes.
If notice in bold black letters it says brewed coffee should be enjoyed immediately. I could be wrong but nowhere on this planet does "immediately" mean at a later time.That is extraction, not drinking. :roll:
I am certain you know the difference. How many people do you see drinking coffee directly from the pot???
Plaintiffs' expert, a scholar in thermodynamics applied to human skin burns, testified that liquids, at 180 degrees, will cause a full thickness burn to human skin in two to seven seconds. Other testimony showed that as the temperature decreases toward 155 degrees, the extent of the burn relative to that temperature decreases exponentially. Thus, if Liebeck's spill had involved coffee at 155 degrees, the liquid would have cooled and given her time to avoid a serious burn.
Since when is Bunn or the NCA experts on human physiology, burns or physics??? :doh
It also does not make it a frivolous.
At a 170 degrees exposed to her skin for 90 seconds would have caused severe 3rd degree burns.190 degrees will cause burns fast and cool slower than the 170 or whatever you mentioned. This is a fact.
McDonald's was warned and they reaped the benefits of their stupidity.
No. That is not even comparable, a ridicules fallacy argument.
People drinking coffee do not expect 3rd degree burns in 7 seconds. .
People drinking coffee understand that it is a hot liquid and therefore are careful handling it. This regardless if it 130,140,150,160 degrees and so on.People using razors understand they are sharp and can cause injury
No, the lid wasn't off when the spill occurred.
A 140 degree coffee will also burn the mouth and throat.
I am not ignoring any facts. The only way someone could burn their throat and mouth with coffee is if they drank it too fast. If you blow and sip on it you are less likely to burn your mouth and throat.
They are experts at making and serving coffee. That is why.
Wow a whole 5-15 degrees higher. Do you honestly think that if the coffee was at 175- 185 degree Fahrenheit optimal serving temperature according to the NCA and Bunn website that it would have made a difference in the burns she received?
SOmebody needs to explain to all the retards out there that you do not put hot coffee between your legs.
McDonalds does not need to account for the retards out there who are stupid enough to burn themselves with coffee due to the negligence of the customer.
McDonalds just knew there were 700 idiots out there
3rd degree burns happen at 140 degrees which is what MaggieD claims McDonalds serve their coffee at.
Should razor companies care when a customer cuts themselves due to their own stupidity? Should public works care if someone jumps off a bridge and injures them self? Should a kitchen cutlery company care if a customer cuts themselves with a knife?
The car was not moving.
THe FDA are not coffee experts and do you actually have a link? Besides that this article says different.
Food Safety and the Law - Defending and Preventing a Coffee Burn Lawsuit
Many courts have examined what constitutes the “industry standard” for coffee temperatures. In New York, a court ruled a plaintiff failed to show that coffee served between 180° and 190° F exceeds industry standards. In Indiana, a federal district judge concluded the industry standard for coffee temperature is between 170° and 205° F. In Minnesota, a court ruled coffee brewed at 190° and held at 180° is within industry standards. These judicial determinations are supported by the fact that most home coffee machines hold coffee for serving at temperatures between 170° and 185° F.
If notice in bold black letters it says brewed coffee should be enjoyed immediately. I could be wrong but nowhere on this planet does "immediately" mean at a later time.
How To Brew Coffee - National Coffee Association
Brewed coffee should be enjoyed immediately!
How many people let the pot sit for several minutes before pouring themselves a cup of coffee?
No it wouldn't have. She was exposed to hot coffee for 90 seconds and that most certianly would have been enough time for a 155 degree coffee to give her 3rd degree burns.
Hot Water Burn & Consumer Safety: Chart - Accurate Building Inspectors ® | 1-800-640-8285 |
Most adults will suffer third-degree burns if exposed to 150 degree water for two seconds.
They are experts on coffee.
Did McDonalds pour coffee of her?
Did McDonalds shove her while she was opening her coffee?
Does McDonalfs have a how-to poster at the drive through depicting customers sticking a cup of hot liquid in between their legs and proceeding to open the lid?
Did McDonalds lie to her and tell her it was safe to put a cup of coffee in between her legs?
Did McDonalds hold a gun to her head and force her to put a cup of hot coffee in between her legs?
Did McDonalds employees come out the store and shake her car while she was putting a cup of hot coffee in between her legs thus causing her to burn herself?
At a 170 degrees exposed to her skin for 90 seconds would have caused severe 3rd degree burns.
The only stupidity there was is on the part of the idiots who burned themselves with coffee.
It is exactly comparable. It order to injure yourself with these products you have to be pretty careless.
In order for 3rd degree burns to happen in 7 seconds the coffee would have to been at 140 degrees. These burns happened around a few seconds since the coffee was served at or near optimal temperature.
People drinking coffee understand that it is a hot liquid and therefore are careful handling it. This regardless if it 130,140,150,160 degrees and so on.
You know this how exactly?? Where you hiding in the trunk or something?? In either case it makes no difference..
It is not desputed that she put the coffee betweem her legs..
It is not desputed that she either removed the lid or was in the process off when the spill occured..
It is well known that she was attempting to add condiments, cream and or surgar to her coffee while sitting in the car..
She could have ordered her coffee with cream and sugar already in it.. Millions of people do it everyday..
It is rather stupid and pointless to discuss the lid and how far on or off it was.. The simple fact was that it was being removed..
She should have never put the coffee between her legs to begin with..
This entire case is fivolous because nobody has yet to offer a logical or legal reason as to what makes McDonald's responsible??
You all can bitch about the temperature of the coffee.. All you are doing is showing your ignorance and stupidity... Coffee is hot.. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to know this.. The design of the lid is irrelevent because she had either taken it off or was in the process off..
The car moving is irrelevent because she was an idiot for putting the hot cup of coffee between her legs to begin with.. I doubt there isn't a single person here that hasn't been in a car, put a drink between their legs and spilled it.. It is a pretty common thing to do.. In all cases, be it a bottle of coke or a hot cup of coffee, it is her fault for putting the cup where it was and not in a cup holder..
The severity of her burns is irrelevent and doesn't show fault.. She was 79 years old.. If anyone knows anything about the elderly is that their skin is very thin and fragile.. So the fact that she burned as bad as she did is simply an indication of her age.. It is doubtful that if a 30 or 40 something person spilled their coffee, they would have been burned as badly.. Even if the coffee is the same temperature.. This would be a common sense statistic as I am sure countless people have done just that.. Spilled hot coffee in their lap.. Probably just got a mild 1st or possible even a 2nd degree burn.. Nothing major.. Just some redness and irratation..
It isn't McDonald's fault she was as old as she was.. The simple fact here remains.. There is nothing about this case that makes McDonald's even the slightest bit liable..
McDonald's didn't put the coffee between here legs..
McDonald's didn't attemp to remove the lid in the car while holding the cup between her legs..
McDonald's didn't make the cup spill between her legs..
McDonald's didn't throw a magic spell and make her an old woman with thin fragile skin..
McDonald's didn't force her to wear cotton so that it would absorb the hot coffee and hold it to her skin longer..
I am sure the coffee was the same temperature that every other coffee machine stores it's coffee.. Somewhere between 170 to 190 degrees.. This is the same everywhere.. Even the coffee maker in your house!!
If she is going to be dumb enough to attemp to put cream or sugar into her coffee will sitting in the front seat of a car, moving or not, then she diserves being burned for being stupid.. As I said above.. She could have ordered it with her cream and surgar.. She could have asked her son or whom ever it was for assistance in holding the cup.. There is a lot of things she could have done.. But again.. None of this is the fault of McDonald's..
And if you're sitting in a car, how do you remove the lid so that there's no possibility of the coffee spilling on you?
You know what?
The more you post, the more it becomes obvious that you haven't read any of the links I posted. Your posts contain numerous mistatements of fact.
You can post as much as you like from coffee shills and lawyers, but even McD's Quality Assurance Mgr admitted, in court, that their coffee was not safe to drink.
THe FDA are not coffee experts and do you actually have a link? Besides that this article says different.
Food Safety and the Law - Defending and Preventing a Coffee Burn Lawsuit
Many courts have examined what constitutes the “industry standard” for coffee temperatures. In New York, a court ruled a plaintiff failed to show that coffee served between 180° and 190° F exceeds industry standards. In Indiana, a federal district judge concluded the industry standard for coffee temperature is between 170° and 205° F. In Minnesota, a court ruled coffee brewed at 190° and held at 180° is within industry standards. These judicial determinations are supported by the fact that most home coffee machines hold coffee for serving at temperatures between 170° and 185° F.
If notice in bold black letters it says brewed coffee should be enjoyed immediately. I could be wrong but nowhere on this planet does "immediately" mean at a later time.
How To Brew Coffee - National Coffee Association
Brewed coffee should be enjoyed immediately!
How many people let the pot sit for several minutes before pouring themselves a cup of coffee?
No it wouldn't have. She was exposed to hot coffee for 90 seconds and that most certianly would have been enough time for a 155 degree coffee to give her 3rd degree burns.
Hot Water Burn & Consumer Safety: Chart - Accurate Building Inspectors ® | 1-800-640-8285 |
Most adults will suffer third-degree burns if exposed to 150 degree water for two seconds.
They are experts on coffee.
Did McDonalds pour coffee of her?
Did McDonalds shove her while she was opening her coffee?
Does McDonalfs have a how-to poster at the drive through depicting customers sticking a cup of hot liquid in between their legs and proceeding to open the lid?
Did McDonalds lie to her and tell her it was safe to put a cup of coffee in between her legs?
Did McDonalds hold a gun to her head and force her to put a cup of hot coffee in between her legs?
Did McDonalds employees come out the store and shake her car while she was putting a cup of hot coffee in between her legs thus causing her to burn herself?
At a 170 degrees exposed to her skin for 90 seconds would have caused severe 3rd degree burns.
The only stupidity there was is on the part of the idiots who burned themselves with coffee.
It is exactly comparable. It order to injure yourself with these products you have to be pretty careless.
In order for 3rd degree burns to happen in 7 seconds the coffee would have to been at 140 degrees. These burns happened around a few seconds since the coffee was served at or near optimal temperature.
People drinking coffee understand that it is a hot liquid and therefore are careful handling it. This regardless if it 130,140,150,160 degrees and so on.
Well.. Start naming the mistatements of fact.. Otherwise you are just making yourself look like a fool..
I did read the links you put.. I read them before you posted them and also posted the wikipedia one before you did.. Guess you weren't paying attention..
Still the fact remains.. You haven't said or done anything that can show a logical or viable reason as to why Mcdonald's is responsible.. Not that you can..
You know this how exactly?? Where you hiding in the trunk or something?? In either case it makes no difference..
It is not desputed that she put the coffee betweem her legs..
It is not desputed that she either removed the lid or was in the process off when the spill occured..
It is well known that she was attempting to add condiments, cream and or surgar to her coffee while sitting in the car..
She could have ordered her coffee with cream and sugar already in it.. Millions of people do it everyday..
It is rather stupid and pointless to discuss the lid and how far on or off it was.. The simple fact was that it was being removed..
She should have never put the coffee between her legs to begin with..
This entire case is fivolous because nobody has yet to offer a logical or legal reason as to what makes McDonald's responsible??
You all can bitch about the temperature of the coffee.. All you are doing is showing your ignorance and stupidity... Coffee is hot.. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to know this.. The design of the lid is irrelevent because she had either taken it off or was in the process off..
The car moving is irrelevent because she was an idiot for putting the hot cup of coffee between her legs to begin with.. I doubt there isn't a single person here that hasn't been in a car, put a drink between their legs and spilled it.. It is a pretty common thing to do.. In all cases, be it a bottle of coke or a hot cup of coffee, it is her fault for putting the cup where it was and not in a cup holder..
The severity of her burns is irrelevent and doesn't show fault.. She was 79 years old.. If anyone knows anything about the elderly is that their skin is very thin and fragile.. So the fact that she burned as bad as she did is simply an indication of her age.. It is doubtful that if a 30 or 40 something person spilled their coffee, they would have been burned as badly.. Even if the coffee is the same temperature.. This would be a common sense statistic as I am sure countless people have done just that.. Spilled hot coffee in their lap.. Probably just got a mild 1st or possible even a 2nd degree burn.. Nothing major.. Just some redness and irratation..
It isn't McDonald's fault she was as old as she was.. The simple fact here remains.. There is nothing about this case that makes McDonald's even the slightest bit liable..
McDonald's didn't put the coffee between here legs..
McDonald's didn't attemp to remove the lid in the car while holding the cup between her legs..
McDonald's didn't make the cup spill between her legs..
McDonald's didn't throw a magic spell and make her an old woman with thin fragile skin..
McDonald's didn't force her to wear cotton so that it would absorb the hot coffee and hold it to her skin longer..
I am sure the coffee was the same temperature that every other coffee machine stores it's coffee.. Somewhere between 170 to 190 degrees.. This is the same everywhere.. Even the coffee maker in your house!!
If she is going to be dumb enough to attemp to put cream or sugar into her coffee will sitting in the front seat of a car, moving or not, then she diserves being burned for being stupid.. As I said above.. She could have ordered it with her cream and surgar.. She could have asked her son or whom ever it was for assistance in holding the cup.. There is a lot of things she could have done.. But again.. None of this is the fault of McDonald's..
I don't remove the lid of my coffee while I am in the car. If I did, even the cup holder is a better place than you suggestions. It's far enough away in the center counsel that it will most likely be avoidable. Still, you can make quite the mess and I wouldn't suggest it.
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