Is this a "frivious" lawsuit injury?

[sangha]

Common sense tells reasonable people that you do not place hot liquids in between your legs and not only that but you also do not proceed to take the lid off while that cup of hot liquid is in between your legs.

Actually, it does not.

And if they didn't put it between their knees, they would be holding it in front of them, which could still result in the coffee spilling in their lap.

McDonalds at the time served it between 180-190. So that means it was at or near optimal temperature. Besides that 3rd degree burns can happen with liquid that is 150 degrees for 2 seconds. She was exposed for 90 seconds.

Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
During the case, Liebeck's attorneys discovered that McDonald's required franchises to serve coffee at 180–190 °F (82–88 °C)


Hot Water Burn & Consumer Safety: Chart - Accurate Building Inspectors ® | 1-800-640-8285 |
Most adults will suffer third-degree burns if exposed to 150 degree water for two seconds. Burns will also occur with a six-second exposure to 140 degree water or with a thirty second exposure to 130 degree water. Even if the temperature is 120 degrees, a five minute exposure could result in third-degree burns.

No, it means it was at or ABOVE optimal temp for BREWING, not serving which is why other businesses serve their coffee at a lower temp

 

[sangha]

How can a lid prevent spilling when removed?

By not coming off smoothly. By allowing the cup to be bent while removing the lid, etc

Compare the cups and lids that McD's uses now, and it's obvious that they are superior and stronger

 

[sangha]

She took the lid off according to everything I have read. That is why she was partially at fault.

The spill occurred while she was taking the lid off. Subtle difference, but IMO an important one

 

[sangha]

It doesn't matter, once the lid no longer seals the cup, as would be the case either when removing the lid or having totally removed the lid, it no longer functions as a lid. Semantics will not make your case stronger.

Not if removing the lid was not a smooth operation. Some lids pop off easily with one smooth motion. Other lids require you to push them up at more than one spot. You push one spot, and only a port of the lid comes up. Then you have to turn the cup around to pop off the rest.

And some lids have spots that can be pressed in to pour cream and sugar through, removing the need to even open the lid.

Designing a safe cup and lid is not rocket science.

 

[DemonMyst]

Yes.. This is a frivolous law suit.. She took the lid off in the car.. Placed the cup of coffee between her legs to put creamer and stuff in.. She was also wearing sweats?? Can anyone here explain to me how McDonalds is responsible for any of that?? McDonalds did not put the coffee between her legs.. McDonalds did not remove the lid thereby removing any protection it may have provided.. McDondald's did not spill the coffee on her..

This was entirely her fault.. It was hot coffee.. This isn't rocket science..

 

[sangha]

Yes.. This is a frivolous law suit.. She took the lid off in the car.. Placed the cup of coffee between her legs to put creamer and stuff in.. She was also wearing sweats?? Can anyone here explain to me how McDonalds is responsible for any of that?? McDonalds did not put the coffee between her legs.. McDonalds did not remove the lid thereby removing any protection it may have provided.. McDondald's did not spill the coffee on her..

This was entirely her fault.. It was hot coffee.. This isn't rocket science..

McDonalds sold a food product that was not fit for human consumption as served.

 

[jamesrage]

Actually, it does not.

And if they didn't put it between their knees, they would be holding it in front of them, which could still result in the coffee spilling in their lap.

Yes common sense does tell people not to put hot liquids between their legs. As far as I can recall I have never put a cup of hot liquid in between my legs and I am sure a majority of people have no put a cup of hot coffee between their legs too. You would have to be dee dee dee to put a cup of hot liquid between your legs.

No, it means it was at or ABOVE optimal temp for BREWING, not serving which is why other businesses serve their coffee at a lower temp

Notice that it said brewed coffee should be enjoyed immediately right after the paragraph on proper brewing temperature. This would mean that as soon as it is brewed which is at the temperature of 195 - 205 degrees Fahrenheit that it should be served immediately. Serving coffee immediately after it brews is going to be close to 195-205

If you also notice it said that if it will be a few minuted before the coffee is served, the temperature should be maintained at 190-185. Again when you serve the coffee it will close to the temperature it was maintained at. Notice that it does not say turn off the pot and let sit until it cools down before serving.


How To Brew Coffee - National Coffee Association

Your brewer should maintain a water temperature between 195 - 205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction.

snip....

Brewed coffee should be enjoyed immediately!

Pour it into a warmed mug or coffee cup so that it will maintain its temperature as long as possible. Brewed coffee begins to lose its optimal taste moments after brewing so only brew as much coffee as will be consumed immediately. If it will be a few minutes before it will be served, the temperature should be maintained at 180 - 185 degrees Fahrenheit.

 

[jamesrage]

McDonalds sold a food product that was not fit for human consumption as served.

This has what to do with the fact she knowingly placed a cup of coffee that was at optimal temperature between her legs? It has nothing to do with the fact she did this out of her free will and stupidity.

 

[sangha]

Yes common sense does tell people not to put hot liquids between their legs. As far as I can recall I have never put a cup of hot liquid in between my legs and I am sure a majority of people have no put a cup of hot coffee between their legs too. You would have to be dee dee dee to put a cup of hot liquid between your legs.

Notice that it said brewed coffee should be enjoyed immediately right after the paragraph on proper brewing temperature. This would mean that as soon as it is brewed which is at the temperature of 195 - 205 degrees Fahrenheit that it should be served immediately. Serving coffee immediately after it brews is going to be close to 195-205

If you also notice it said that if it will be a few minuted before the coffee is served, the temperature should be maintained at 190-185. Again when you serve the coffee it will close to the temperature it was maintained at. Notice that it does not say turn off the pot and let sit until it cools down before serving.


How To Brew Coffee - National Coffee Association

Your brewer should maintain a water temperature between 195 - 205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction.

snip....

Brewed coffee should be enjoyed immediately!

Pour it into a warmed mug or coffee cup so that it will maintain its temperature as long as possible. Brewed coffee begins to lose its optimal taste moments after brewing so only brew as much coffee as will be consumed immediately. If it will be a few minutes before it will be served, the temperature should be maintained at 180 - 185 degrees Fahrenheit.

The temp you claim is optimal causes third degree burns in your throat if you drink it.

I don't care what some corporate front says. Common sense dictates that third degree burns in your throat are sub-optimal

 

[sangha]

This has what to do with the fact she knowingly placed a cup of coffee that was at optimal temperature between her legs? It has nothing to do with the fact she did this out of her free will and stupidity.

She did not know how hot the coffee was. Most of McD's customers did not know how hot their coffee was. This was proven in court

And she was found partially liable precisely because she put the cup between her knees. And the compensation was reduced commensurately.

 

[Black Dog]

How To Brew Coffee - National Coffee Association
Brewed coffee should be enjoyed immediately!

Pour it into a warmed mug or coffee cup so that it will maintain its temperature as long as possible. Brewed coffee begins to lose its optimal taste moments after brewing so only brew as much coffee as will be consumed immediately. If it will be a few minutes before it will be served, the temperature should be maintained at 180 - 185 degrees Fahrenheit.

BUNN Coffee Basics: Holding and Serving Know How
Ideal serving temperature: 155ºF to 175ºF (70ºC to 80ºC)
Many of the volatile aromatics in coffee have boiling points above 150ºF (65ºC). They simply are not perceived when coffee is served at lower temperatures.

They were warned by the Feds a few times the coffee was to hot. 190ºF is to HOT even for the "volatile aromatics."

"Ideal serving temperature: 155ºF to 175ºF" not 190º.

They had been warned and desired to ignore it. She won and it was not in my opinion frivolous according to the evidence against McDonald's.

 

[Ockham]

She did not know how hot the coffee was. Most of McD's customers did not know how hot their coffee was. This was proven in court

And she was found partially liable precisely because she put the cup between her knees. And the compensation was reduced commensurately.

Very few people walk around with probe thermometers (other than maybe cooks and chefs) and poke it in their coffee to see how hot it is. No one knows how hot their coffee is. Knowing how hot it was is irrelevant and does not diminish the fact it was stupid to put a coffee between your legs and take the top off.

According to this site, 50% of Americans drink coffee and the those who drink coffee on average, have 2-3 cups per day. That's 150 million (approximately) X 3. 450 million cups of coffee every day about... very few of which know how hot their coffee was or is. :coffeepap:

 

[Cameron]

Never thought it was a frivolous case. Reasonable people going through drive-throughs expect their coffee to be hot, but they don't expect to have their skinned burned completely off if the coffee they are served happens to get knocked over in the car (not exactly a rare occurrence...), and for good reason. McDonalds breached their duty of care by keeping their coffee that hot. Simple as that.

In addition, she spilled it on herself while the car was parked, as she was removing the lid to put in sugar. Not exactly a totally irresponsible action. It's not as if she was driving around with the thing open, balancing it on her head. This literally could have happened to anybody. I'd like to hear people complaining about the frivolous of it then.

McDonalds served their coffee (a product meant to be CONSUMED) at a temperature capable of causing third degree burns in two seconds. I mean, I don't even see how this is arguable...

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

I'm very against frivolous lawsuits and for tort law, yet my stance on this lawsuit is divided.
1)She put the coffee between her legs, which shouldn't have happened
2)The coffee was too hot, so McDonald's did have some fault
3)The cup was too flimsy, so McDonald's, again, did have some fault
4)She lifted the cup while the car was moving, so it was her fault.

All in all, she did have some reason to sue, yet those circumstances were created because of her, so it's a gray area in whether the lawsuit was frivolous or not. Yet I tend to lean towards the "frivolous" crowd because it was of her stupidity that the accident happened. You don't have a cup of open, hot coffee between your legs in a car

 

[Ikari]

Even perfectly safe lids come off. SOmetimes extreme heat changes the way they operate. Sometimes the lid isnt put on correctly. Coffee cups are designed to safely hold coffee served at a safe temperature. When the temperature is routinely exceeded by the franchise and they have been cited for it, the franschise is liable. They knowingly and willfullly served an unsafe product, regardless of the state of the vessel.

Yes, and what you said would be a lid failure. Right, something happens, the lid loosens and falls off. That's a failure of the lid. Someone trying to take the lid off and in the process spills it upon themselves is not a lid failure for once the lid is no longer securely fastened to the cup, it is no longer a lid.

 

[lpast]

Lawyers will sue people over a ham sandwich, the way this woman was burned..cmon no coffee should be that hot...

 

[Ikari]

Not if removing the lid was not a smooth operation. Some lids pop off easily with one smooth motion. Other lids require you to push them up at more than one spot. You push one spot, and only a port of the lid comes up. Then you have to turn the cup around to pop off the rest.

And some lids have spots that can be pressed in to pour cream and sugar through, removing the need to even open the lid.

Designing a safe cup and lid is not rocket science.

If a lid easily loosens from the cup, it's not a good lid. It can pop off and nearly any time. A lid to be a lid must be securely fastened to the cup. Else it's not much of a lid. It's not wise to try to loosen a securely fastened lid with the cup between your legs. You have less stability in that situation and are well more prone to failure. Operator error.

 

[Ikari]

McDonalds sold a food product that was not fit for human consumption as served.

So does Taco Bell.

 

[BayToBay]

4)She lifted the cup while the car was moving, so it was her fault.

The car was not moving.

 

[BayToBay]

Very few people walk around with probe thermometers (other than maybe cooks and chefs) and poke it in their coffee to see how hot it is. No one knows how hot their coffee is. Knowing how hot it was is irrelevant and does not diminish the fact it was stupid to put a coffee between your legs and take the top off.

According to this site, 50% of Americans drink coffee and the those who drink coffee on average, have 2-3 cups per day. That's 150 million (approximately) X 3. 450 million cups of coffee every day about... very few of which know how hot their coffee was or is. :coffeepap:

And her putting a cup of coffee between her legs does not diminish that it was stupid to serve coffee at that temperature. A reasonable person would assume that putting hot coffee between their legs may lead to spilling and burns, but not third degree burns. It was ridiculously hot. If it had been minor burns from reasonably hot coffee then she would have had no case, but those are not the facts.

 

[MaggieD]

YEs it is a frivolous lawsuit injury. The degree of injury she suffered is totally irrelevant.

Boooo Hisssssss!!!! James! 2nd/3rd degree burns on an 80-year-old are serious business. On a diabetic they can be absolutely deadly. Coffee served with cream/sugar separate at a drive-thru at 190 degrees is ludicrous. The jury's award was also ludicrous -- $2.8 million or so. The courts reduced it to $480K -- more like it. Nowwwww, McDonald's serves its coffee at 140 degrees. AND they'll put in cream/sugar for you. They never used to do that. Guess that $480K slap on the hand had an effect. And that's what lawsuits are supposed to do...

 

[DemonMyst]

McDonalds sold a food product that was not fit for human consumption as served.

By who's standard?? When you order coffee, do you expect it to be hot?? She took the lid off.. It was an accident.. But Mcdonalds is not liable for her mistakes.. What if she was sitting at a restaurant and knocked her cup of coffee into her lap?? Same burns, who is resposible??

I guess being from Seattle, the home of Starbucks.. I am used to coffee being hot.. I guess I fail to see why anyone wouldn't expect their coffee to be hot and take the required precautions when handiling it..

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

The car was not moving.

Yeah, sorry about that. Mixed it up, saw the case a while ago and didn't bother to re-research ))it.

 

[BayToBay]

Hot coffee is sipped and enjoyed slowly.Not drank fast or chugged.If you blow on your coffee and drink it slowly you will not scald your mouth or lips.

Again, nobody said a thing about chugging it. They acknowledged in court that they were aware that it would burn the mouth and throat if used as intended. You are ignoring the facts and inserting fairytale nonsesnse that had nothing at all to do with the case.

I did not lie.

You continue to lie by making up the fact that the coffee would have to be chugged in order to burn the mouth or throat. That is not true and was not the testimony given.

I posted sources from people who are experts when it comes to coffee a coffee enthusiast site and coffee brewer manufacture website that state that the optimal temperature to serve coffee is around 155-185 degrees Fahrenheit.

BUNN Coffee Basics: Holding and Serving Know How
How To Brew Coffee - National Coffee Association

Who cares what some industry group says? However, McDonald's routinely kept there coffee above those temperatures so what do you think that does for your position?

Before April 18 1994 any company would have been arrogant when sued by a moron who injured themselves due to their own negligence. I am surprised McDonalds did not talk down to her in court like she was a 4 year old with pop up picture book explaining to her how coffee is hot and hot liquids can burn.

Somebody needed to explain it to McDonalds. We all agree, she made a bad choice. The only difference is that you seem to think that McDonald's has no obligation to employ common sense. There was no need for their coffee to be that hot, they knew it was a danger and 700 complaints many of which included 3rd degree burns (not just minor burns but burn you to the bone burns). They did not care. It is one thing to be negligent and quite another to be willfully negligent.

The judge and jury were morons. The idea that McDonalds had any responsibility in this is absurd. Liebeck is a 100% at fault.

The court heard the evidence without preconceptions, which is clearly beyond your ability. McDonald's was at fault and we are all better off because of the verdict, including McDonald's and all of its (according to you) "moronic" employees who routinely suffered burns.

 

[DemonMyst]

Boooo Hisssssss!!!! James! 2nd/3rd degree burns on an 80-year-old are serious business. On a diabetic they can be absolutely deadly. Coffee served with cream/sugar separate at a drive-thru at 190 degrees is ludicrous. The jury's award was also ludicrous -- $2.8 million or so. The courts reduced it to $480K -- more like it. Nowwwww, McDonald's serves its coffee at 140 degrees. AND they'll put in cream/sugar for you. They never used to do that. Guess that $480K slap on the hand had an effect. And that's what lawsuits are supposed to do...

Seriously?? So your saying that any 80 year old that spills hot coffee on themselves can file suit?? That will put a lot of nursing homes out of business.. Get a clue here!! She took a cup of hot coffee, put it between her legs, took off the lid, and through no fault or control of Mcdonalds spilled it on herself.. The seriousness of the burns and her age are irrelevent.. They do not have laws that only apply to old folks..

There is. no logical or legal reason that this case is anything but a frivolous lawsuit.. She spilled coffee on herself.. Like millions of other people do each year.. Accidents happen.. Now just keep the old lady out of the kitchen and give her plastic silverware.. Especially since being 80 means you can sue someone for your own stupidity.. I hope she doesn't drive.. She might just sue the owner of a parked car because she accidently put it in reverse and not drive..