Is the Confederate Flag a symbol of White Supremacy?

[Parrish]

Yes, a sensible choice. No nerve required at all to decide not to waste time when others' minds are made up.

Your mind is made up. The confederate flag is a symbol of White Supremacy. No nuance, just a fact.

 

[nota bene]

Your mind is made up. The confederate flag is a symbol of White Supremacy. No nuance, just a fact.

Oh, really? What is my mind made up to? Please tell me my opinion.

 

[Bodi]

Your mind is made up. The confederate flag is a symbol of White Supremacy. No nuance, just a fact.

It is not a fact. That is how you view it. I am not even a Southerner and I see it as representing The South, hospitality, manners, charm, ice tea, soul food, grits.

 

[JasperL]

Pole-bearers speech

The Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association (predecessor to the NAACP) was organized by Southern blacks after the war to promote black voting rights, etc. One of their early conventions was held in Memphis and Mr. Forrest was invited to be the guest speaker, the first white man ever to be invited to speak to the Association.

After the Civil War, General Forrest made a speech to the Memphis City Council (then called the Board of Aldermen). In this speech he said that there was no reason that the black man could not be doctors, store clerks, bankers, or any other job equal to whites. They were part of our community and should be involved and employed as such just like anyone else.

In another speech to Federal authorities, Forrest said that many of the ex-slaves were skilled artisans and needed to be employed and that those skills needed to be taught to the younger workers. If not, then the next generation of blacks would have no skills and could not succeed and would become dependent on the welfare of society.

Forrest's words went unheeded. The Memphis & Selma Railroad was organized by Forrest after the war to help rebuild the South's transportation and to build the 'new South'. Forrest took it upon himself to hire blacks as architects, construction engineers and foremen, train engineers and conductors, and other high level jobs. In the North, blacks were prohibited from holding such jobs.

Finally hundreds of newly freed African-Americans were at his funeral, that suggests Forrest treated his servants very well. . His plantation was destroyed by the Union soldiers and those servants that use to work for him, came back free & helped restore the damage.

How many people attended Forrest's funeral?

• When Forrest died in 1877 it is noteworthy that his funeral in Memphis was attended not only by a throng of thousands of whites but by hundreds of blacks as well. The funeral procession was over two miles long and was attended by over 10,000 area residents, including 3000 black citizens paying their respects.

I know all about that, and I was going to write about his post KKK apparent "conversion."

The problem for me in this context is the people of Tennessee didn't celebrate NFB's Pole Bearers speech. He was in fact condemned for that speech at the time. They erected his statue in full CSA warrior mode, not as the racially tolerant man in his final few years. If they'd erected a statue celebrating that last part of his life, while the state was all in on Jim Crow, that would have been something....

 

[nota bene]

It is not a fact. That is how you view it. I am not even a Southerner and I see it as representing The South, hospitality, manners, charm, ice tea, soul food, grits.

View attachment 67458963

I see it a representing terrible tragedy and loss of life. After Gettysburg, the Confederate wagons of wounded and dying stretched 26 miles while the Union side's was 23 miles long. After Vicksburg, the ditches ran with blood. Brothers killing brothers. Tragic.

 

[multivita-man]

Many would say the US flag is a 'symbol of white supremacy'.

Indeed many would,.

 

[multivita-man]

I see it a representing terrible tragedy and loss of life. After Gettysburg, the Confederate wagons of wounded and dying stretched 26 miles while the Union side's was 23 miles long. After Vicksburg, the ditches ran with blood. Brothers killing brothers. Tragic.

And the humans who were treated like subhuman livestock. What about them?

 

[JasperL]

I don't even understand the point of polls such as this one except to re-fight the Civil War. I mean, nobody is really going to be allowed an opinion other than "Yes, the Confederate flag is a symbol of white supremacy." Heaven forbid that there should be any "nuance."

You're allowed any opinion you want to express, including any "nuance" you'd like to mention, and others are allowed to disagree. That is the point of this place.....

FWIW, the "confederate" flag isn't really about the Civil War as I see it (it is one of many flags of that era), but about post-war white supremacy and how that flag was adopted as THE banner of people in my lifetime fighting against civil rights for blacks. And right now, today, find me a gathering of white supremacists, and I'll bet we can find that "confederate" flag in their midst.

 

[Bodi]

I see it a representing terrible tragedy and loss of life. After Gettysburg, the Confederate wagons of wounded and dying stretched 26 miles while the Union side's was 23 miles long. After Vicksburg, the ditches ran with blood. Brothers killing brothers. Tragic.

I see it that way as well... especially the Battle Flag.

Point is... it is subjective except when hilly billy redneck white trash (regardless of income) are waving it at a rally or being a nazi and such.

Poll: Majority sees Confederate flag as Southern pride symbol, not racist​

57% of Americans see the flag more as a symbol of Southern pride than as a symbol of racism, about the same as in 2000 when 59% said they viewed it as a symbol of pride

https://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-poll-racism-southern-pride/index.html

 

[JasperL]

It is not a fact. That is how you view it. I am not even a Southerner and I see it as representing The South, hospitality, manners, charm, ice tea, soul food, grits.

View attachment 67458963

Why post that flag? Ask 10 people and I doubt if any can tell you what it represents. It's certainly not the flag we're discussing.

I am a southerner, lived all my life in the former CSA, and what I also know is if I hang that flag off my front porch, a large majority driving by will assume I'm a white supremacist. I know my black neighbors wouldn't be happy about it, because they're not morons.

And the thing is, we as a region and a people should strive to be known for our manners, hospitality. So why in the hell would a polite southerner fly a flag that he or she KNOWS will tell a big part of the world - white supremacist? How is that being courteous and charming for our black neighbors? Whatever it might mean TO ME isn't all that relevant. Maybe I just want to honor my dead ancestors who moved here in the 1700s. Well, if I'm a hospitable, charming person, who wants to project a welcoming place to all who visit, I'll sure as hell find some way to do that other than hanging the fave flag of KKK or neo-Nazi scum.

I am proud of this area and this state, so what's on my car is the 3 stars in a circle of our state flag, and an orange T. Those who are at least inconsiderate assholes who fly the confederate flag do a disservice to this area, and its people.

 

[CaughtInThe]

I don’t think you can overstate how completely Obama broke their minds. The fact that a black man was the most powerful person in the world for eight years and was popular and largely successful absolutely destroyed white power mythology and psychology and was their apocalypse

 

[slick]

I know all about that, and I was going to write about his post KKK apparent "conversion."

The problem for me in this context is the people of Tennessee didn't celebrate NFB's Pole Bearers speech. He was in fact condemned for that speech at the time. They erected his statue in full CSA warrior mode, not as the racially tolerant man in his final few years. If they'd erected a statue celebrating that last part of his life, while the state was all in on Jim Crow, that would have been something....

This is where my views differ from your previous posts about Forrests
with the topic being race.

'Forrest was not a 21st Century man who believed in
racial equality; he remained a man of his time,
sharing the almost-universal view of white
Europeans and Americans in the 19th Century that
Anglo-Saxons were superior to other peoples, but
neither was Forrest a reactionary racist who sought
a return to slavery. Forrest worked to accept the
end of slavery and the social changes resulting
from the war as indicated by his words to his men
in his 1865 farewell address. A recent biographer
of Forrest says “The reality is that over the
length of his lifetime Nathan Bedford Forrest's
racial attitudes probably developed more, and more
in the direction of liberal enlightenment, than
those of most other Americans in that era"

 

[Tigerace117]

I see it that way as well... especially the Battle Flag.

Point is... it is subjective except when hilly billy redneck white trash (regardless of income) are waving it at a rally or being a nazi and such.

Poll: Majority sees Confederate flag as Southern pride symbol, not racist​

57% of Americans see the flag more as a symbol of Southern pride than as a symbol of racism, about the same as in 2000 when 59% said they viewed it as a symbol of pride

https://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-poll-racism-southern-pride/index.html

Pride in a regime which went to war to save slavery is as ignorant as ever.

 

[Hatuey]

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_geosec.asp - Georgia

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp - Mississippi

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp - South Carolina

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_texsec.asp - Texas

 

[slick]

And the humans who were treated like subhuman livestock. What about them?

YES INDENTURED SERVANTS & AFRICAN SLAVES WERE OFTEN TREATED IN THAT MANOR
The growth of tobacco and the plantation economy created a tremendous need for labor in Southern English America. While slaves existed in the English colonies throughout the 1600s, indentured servitude was the method of choice employed by many planters. Between the 1630s and the American Revolution, one-half to two-thirds of white immigrants to the Thirteen Colonies arrived under indentures. Half a million Europeans, mostly young men, also went to the Caribbean under indenture to work on plantations.
For much of the seventeenth century, those servants were white English men and women, along with some Africans under indenture with the promise of freedom. In 1619 the first black Africans came to Virginia. With no slave laws in place, they were initially treated as indentured servants, and given the same opportunities for freedom as whites.

On the surface it seemed like a terrific way for the luckless English & other European poor to make their way to prosperity in a new land. Beneath the surface, this was not often the case. Only about 40 percent of indentured servants lived to complete the terms of their contracts. Those working within their contract found living conditions very similar to their enslaved counterparts, such as their less than substantial food and clothing provisions.

After BACON'S REBELLION in 1676, planters began to prefer permanent African slavery to the headright system that had previously enabled them to prosper.

 

[Grogu]

I just caught “The Neutral Ground” on PBS by C.J. Hunt. After reading through the pages of this topic, it seems that a whole lot of people could learn some things if they took the time to watch this documentary.

The Neutral Ground documents New Orleans’ fight over monuments and America’s troubled romance with the Lost Cause.​

In 2015, director CJ Hunt was filming the New Orleans City Council’s vote to remove four confederate monuments. But when that removal is halted by death threats, CJ sets out to understand why a losing army from 1865 still holds so much power in America.

Trailer

 

[multivita-man]

YES INDENTURED SERVANTS & AFRICAN SLAVES WERE OFTEN TREATED IN THAT MANOR
The growth of tobacco and the plantation economy created a tremendous need for labor in Southern English America. While slaves existed in the English colonies throughout the 1600s, indentured servitude was the method of choice employed by many planters. Between the 1630s and the American Revolution, one-half to two-thirds of white immigrants to the Thirteen Colonies arrived under indentures. Half a million Europeans, mostly young men, also went to the Caribbean under indenture to work on plantations.
For much of the seventeenth century, those servants were white English men and women, along with some Africans under indenture with the promise of freedom. In 1619 the first black Africans came to Virginia. With no slave laws in place, they were initially treated as indentured servants, and given the same opportunities for freedom as whites.

On the surface it seemed like a terrific way for the luckless English & other European poor to make their way to prosperity in a new land. Beneath the surface, this was not often the case. Only about 40 percent of indentured servants lived to complete the terms of their contracts. Those working within their contract found living conditions very similar to their enslaved counterparts, such as their less than substantial food and clothing provisions.

After BACON'S REBELLION in 1676, planters began to prefer permanent African slavery to the headright system that had previously enabled them to prosper.

 

[TheGoverness]

No!

It is just a way to remember the sacrifices of so many Southern boys who gave their lives in the belief that since the Constitution is mum on leaving the Union, President Davis had every right to lead an independent nation.

President Davis didn't lead shit. He was a toothless leader for most of his false reign.

There's great irony in that.

 

[JasperL]

This is where my views differ from your previous posts about Forrests
with the topic being race.

'Forrest was not a 21st Century man who believed in
racial equality; he remained a man of his time,
sharing the almost-universal view of white
Europeans and Americans in the 19th Century that
Anglo-Saxons were superior to other peoples, but
neither was Forrest a reactionary racist who sought
a return to slavery. Forrest worked to accept the
end of slavery and the social changes resulting
from the war as indicated by his words to his men
in his 1865 farewell address. A recent biographer
of Forrest says “The reality is that over the
length of his lifetime Nathan Bedford Forrest's
racial attitudes probably developed more, and more
in the direction of liberal enlightenment, than
those of most other Americans in that era"

Again,

"They erected his statue in full CSA warrior mode, not as the racially tolerant man in his final few years. If they'd erected a statue celebrating that last part of his life, while the state was all in on Jim Crow, that would have been something...."

Bottom line is the statue of NBF we're discussing was erected by white supremacists to celebrate, proclaim white supremacy. That is the common theme. Another recently controversial statue was at UNC's campus, Silent Sam. At that statue's dedication one of the speakers told of the "pleasing duty" of horse whipping a black woman so badly her clothes were in shreds. And of course the audience was all white, as were the students then and for the next 40 years or so, because, you know, Jim Crow ruled the day.

 

[Ambig]

Isn't it ironic how millions of African-Americans today can consistently give their votes to a political party that did so much to enslave, brutalize, and perpetuate bigotry in the South

No, not ironic at all. The modern Dem Party serves their best interests.

Just because granddaddy sinned, do you reject the grandson out of hand?

 

[Loulit01]

No. That happened naturally. Forty years ago, it was more a symbol of heritage, but now it's been mangled by culture war extremists and turned into a symbol of white nationalism.

I don't favor culture war extremism.

Nah. Flags mean what people think they mean. They don't necessarily carry the meaning they had when first sewn up.

Is the US flag a symbol of white supremacy, of sexual discrimination, of economic discrimination? Those were all there, at the beginning.

Go wave that flag down South Central and tell them it doesn't mean what they think it means.

I'll wait here.

 

[Ambig]

I was talking about the wealthy elite. You can look at Britain's landed elite, and for hundreds of years they were pumping out literature, music, science, and inventions.

The American South was busy being born. The British had centuries under their belt.

This so called Utopia produced nothing of any worth.

Who called it a utopia? It doesn't seem that way to me. And I'm sure that if I researched it, I could find some worthy stuff produced by it.

Why such a broad claim about an entire region?

 

[NWRatCon]

The CSA battle flag and its various forms were initially used to represent an ideology that approved of and encouraged slavery. In turn, the enslavement of Africans was often justified by those who flew such flags by saying they were of an inferior race.

Fast forward to today: many white nationalists groups and other racists use those flags to identity as having the ideology that non-whites are inferior because that was what those flags were originally used for by the South.

So, yes.

This essentially states my opinion, too. They didn't just pick the battle flag for no reason.

 

[NWRatCon]

To who? Depends on the person viewing it.

I disagree. When someone uses a symbol to represent something, they put forth all of the meanings associated with it, whether intentional or not. For most of us that would urge caution, but for others - well, they just don't care.

I'll use as an example the term "Niggardly". Etymologically, it has nothing to do with race - it just sounds that way. But, for anyone with an ounce of sensitivity, it would not be used to avoid such offense, even secure in the knowledge that it has an entirely different lineage.

 

[Loulit01]

I disagree. When someone uses a symbol to represent something, they put forth all of the meanings associated with it, whether intentional or not. For most of us that would urge caution, but for others - well, they just don't care.

I'll use as an example the term "Niggardly". Etymologically, it has nothing to do with race - it just sounds that way. But, for anyone with an ounce of sensitivity, it would not be used to avoid such offense, even secure in the knowledge that it has an entirely different lineage.

No niggard are you, Éomer to give thus to Gondor the fairest thing in your realm!
— J.R.R. Tolkien