IS Chivalry Dead? If so, Who Killed It?

[DashingAmerican]

We've discussed this to some degree or another in several threads recently, so I figured that maybe it was time to discuss it more specifically....

IS Chivalry Dead? Has society moved so far away from the ideals and concepts of Chivalry that it has lost its place and value in the world?

Assuming that Chivalry IS Dead, or at least Mortally Wounded, who/what is/was it that dealt that crippling blow?

IMO, no, it's not. I'm very respectful of women. I open doors, compliment them, pull out the chairs, pay for everything, even paid for a couple of girls movie tickets when their good for nothing boyfriends were gonna let them pay for themselves, etc. On the other hand, I have a few female friends that hate it when I've done said things.

I will say it is wounded though and I would place blame on the Feminazis who are always telling women that they don't need us to do these things for them. I agree, they don't need us to do such things, but they should expect it. The low expectations on men by women coupled with the Feminazi attitude is killing Chivalry. If more women would keep expecting said things then Chivalry would make a come back because men would have very little choice in the matter.

 

[Slartibartfast]

IMO, no, it's not. I'm very respectful of women. I open doors, compliment them, pull out the chairs, pay for everything, even paid for a couple of girls movie tickets when their good for nothing boyfriends were gonna let them pay for themselves, etc. On the other hand, I have a few female friends that hate it when I've done said things.

I will say it is wounded though and I would place blame on the Feminazis who are always telling women that they don't need us to do these things for them. I agree, they don't need us to do such things, but they should expect it. The low expectations on men by women coupled with the Feminazi attitude is killing Chivalry. If more women would keep expecting said things then Chivalry would make a come back because men would have very little choice in the matter.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Nobody should ever expect special treatment. The expectation of special treatment is one of the worst aspects of our current society and its something that every single demographic from rich to poor does wrong.

 

[blackjack50]

I figured that word would eventually show up. It might be useful for our society if we once again separated the words Discipline and Abuse in the dictionary instead of having combined them with a singular definition as we seem to have in the last half century or so. She got 10-15 swats with my hand for behavior that would have landed me probably 10-12 with the belt from my father when I was a child. She got off light.

I guess you are right. Taking a louiville upside your head is discipline for you being an abusive person, and not abusing you.

 

[blackjack50]

One thing to remember..... If you are going armed, there is a potential that the Suspect is as well. Just because he is spanking her and not pistol whipping her doesn't mean that he isn't prepared to defend himself in the same way that you are. Which would of course bring us to the point of whether either, neither, or both parties were willing to take that walk to the conclusion of the path it had started down, which would occur long before any LEO had arrived on the scene.

So you are superman? You can beat some woman and focus on everyone else around you at the same time?

And you can draw a weapon and get shots off while a gun is already pointed at you? Me thinks thou is living in another reality that is perhaps not even adjacent to the one in which the rest of us reside.

I am by no means gun slinger, but I am pretty quick and I still would never try to race someone to a draw if they already had a weapon on me.

A Chivalrous gentleman gives Respect where it is due. When confronted with one who is not worthy of that Respect, he is not expected to show any of his own.

This isn't chivalry. I direct you to a very important quote:

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."

You clearly do not follow this advice. I myself have been on bad dates with horriible people. I have never lashed out in violence because I was offended. I feel that you have an issue that would warrant further anger management sessions. And you can also measure a man by the company he keeps? Well if she is as "awful" a person as you claim, then why exactly did you date her and strike her 3 times?

Quite frankly a man of your "understanding" of discipline would have known to not see her a 2nd let alone 3rd time? Keep beating her in public though and you will end up in cuffs.


For the record I would have called and paid for a cab because unlike you I actually am a gentlemen.

 

[blackjack50]

I wholeheartedly disagree. Nobody should ever expect special treatment. The expectation of special treatment is one of the worst aspects of our current society and its something that every single demographic from rich to poor does wrong.

Special treatment? Or polite behavior (aka respect if you ask me?). It should be expected of someone, but not surprised when one does not receive it. I think there is a difference between the way someone is treated vs entitelment garbage that we see now.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Special treatment? Or polite behavior (aka respect if you ask me?). It should be expected of someone, but not surprised when one does not receive it. I think there is a difference between the way someone is treated vs entitelment garbage that we see now.

Polite behavior should be expected. However, chivalry goes a few sigmas beyond the norm given that it is a social custom rather than simple human decency.

 

[DashingAmerican]

I wholeheartedly disagree. Nobody should ever expect special treatment. The expectation of special treatment is one of the worst aspects of our current society and its something that every single demographic from rich to poor does wrong.

What I should have said is that if they are going to complain that chivalry is dead then they should do something about it by expecting it or being grateful when they receive it.

 

[Tigger]

So you are superman? You can beat some woman and focus on everyone else around you at the same time? And you can draw a weapon and get shots off while a gun is already pointed at you? Me thinks thou is living in another reality that is perhaps not even adjacent to the one in which the rest of us reside. I am by no means gun slinger, but I am pretty quick and I still would never try to race someone to a draw if they already had a weapon on me.

I'm not Superman. However I would say that I would rather take my chances on drawing and firing (even if it's the return shot) over standing there while someone trys to tell me how to live my life. Anyone who points a gun at me (wearing a badge or not) is going to be responded to with deadly force if it within my means. Even if it means I leave the scene in a plastic bag.

This isn't chivalry. I direct you to a very important quote:

"The true measure of a FOOl is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."

There, I fixed if for you.

You clearly do not follow this advice. I myself have been on bad dates with horriible people. I have never lashed out in violence because I was offended. I feel that you have an issue that would warrant further anger management sessions. And you can also measure a man by the company he keeps? Well if she is as "awful" a person as you claim, then why exactly did you date her and strike her 3 times?

Quite frankly a man of your "understanding" of discipline would have known to not see her a 2nd let alone 3rd time? Keep beating her in public though and you will end up in cuffs.

Anger Management doesn't do anything for me. It's been tried before, unsuccessfully. She had her good days and her bad days. I kept hoping the bad days would lessen in frequency. After that night I never spoke to her again, so I can be pretty sure I won't ever be hitting her again.

For the record I would have called and paid for a cab because unlike you I actually am a gentlemen.

Then I would have to say that you are a fool in my estimation.

 

[blackjack50]

Polite behavior should be expected. However, chivalry goes a few sigmas beyond the norm given that it is a social custom rather than simple human decency.

I suppose I see your point.

 

[blackjack50]

Even if it means I leave the scene in a plastic bag.
.

That pretty much sums it up. Darwin is gonna take care of you.


PS:

It doesn't matter how you twist the story, you assaulted her 3 times and you are in the wrong. Not a single person that is of sane mind will agree with you in this forum. You deserve to be arrested, and it doesn't matter if you THINK your way of life is ok. You live in the United States, and there is not a single state in the Union that would find your behavior acceptable let alone tollerable. Consider this a friendly warning about when you decide to physically batter someone. It will eventually end with someone stronger than you enforcing their will upon you, rather than you doing that to someone else.

 

[Goshin]

Moderator's Warning:

Stonewall and Tigger are both banned from this thread due to their mutual exchange of threats. I am making this public statement so that everyone reading is clear on this: this is NOT acceptible at DP. Period.

 

[joko104]

IMO, no, it's not. I'm very respectful of women. I open doors, compliment them, pull out the chairs, pay for everything, even paid for a couple of girls movie tickets when their good for nothing boyfriends were gonna let them pay for themselves, etc. On the other hand, I have a few female friends that hate it when I've done said things.

I will say it is wounded though and I would place blame on the Feminazis who are always telling women that they don't need us to do these things for them. I agree, they don't need us to do such things, but they should expect it. The low expectations on men by women coupled with the Feminazi attitude is killing Chivalry. If more women would keep expecting said things then Chivalry would make a come back because men would have very little choice in the matter.

There are various reasons some women don't like it. For some, it is because they don't to play the counter- gender role to such actions. It does have a lot to do with expectations.

 

[joko104]

Chivalry....


I got set up for a blind date with this gal, when I was in my 20's, by a relative. The agreement was that I'd pick her up at home.

Well, she walked out the door and I was very disappointed. She was remarkably homely. It wasn't her fault, she did the best she could with what she had, but she was just not attractive at all. Whatever the opposite of "a spark" is, that was my reaction to her appearance.

I firmly kept my disappointement off my face, smiled and said hello. She got in the car and we went to dinner; as is my custom, I paid for everything. I was pleasant and polite and tried to make good conversation. Afterward we went for a walk around the mall. Apparently she was rather taken with me, as she took my hand while we were walking. I had no interest in this, but I smiled and accepted it anyway.

She was a nice girl and pleasant company and made good conversation, except that she had a grating voice that was most unpleasant to the ear. I learned that her voice was a side effect of some kind of surgery she had, to correct a birth defect that had messed up her palate and skull. She had a number of other inborn health problems as well.

It was a bit early yet when I took her home; I made some kind of excuse about being tired from work. She was reluctant to let me leave and pressured me to promise I'd call her. I finally agreed and left.

I did call her back a few days later, and told her as politely and gently as I could that we would not be seeing each other again; I declined to answer "why" as I do not like to lie but also do not wish to hurt someone's feelings needlessly.

Since "your face would make a train take a dirt road" and "I'd fear for the health and appearance of our hypothetical children if you were their mother" would both have been needlessly cruel, I declined to say anything further.

Even so, I'd agreed to take her out and show her a good time, so that is what I tried to do.

Oddly enough I still think about her sometimes. She was very sweet; I hope she eventually found a man who was able to look past her problems and accept her as she was. I am slightly ashamed to admit that I could not, but there it is.

Still, if I had spun gravel leaving the driveway the moment she stepped out the door, that would have been very unkind. Going through with the date and being as nice to her as I could was the only honorable thing to do; to do otherwise would have been selfish and cruel and a dishonor to my family.

Correct behavior in every way.

 

[liblady]

Yes, the Medieval definition of chivalry is exactly that. I made the mistake of thinking Tigger was talking about the common modern meaning of chivalrous...courteous and gallant.

As for the way you perceive courteous conduct by men in your life, well, we disagree. I like it when men open doors for me...take my arm when there's snow on the ground...give me a hand up when we're hiking...pull my chair out when I sit down...help me on with my coat...clean off my windshield when it's full of ice...all the things every man I've ever dated has done for me. I find it charming and endearing. I've never had man in my life who didn't treat me as an intellectual equal. At the very least.

i like all that as well, coming from my husband mostly.

 

[liblady]

She was shown basic human decency. She sustained no permanent injuries from the event, except possibly to her ego, which was well out of proportion. She EARNED what happened to her that night by her behavior in the preceeding three hours. My only other real alternative would have been to leave her sitting there at the table unable to pay her half of the tab and with no way to get home (she had no money, no cell phone, and wasn't even totally aware of where she was). Would you have prefered that I simply abandon her there instead?

yes, in fact. you had no ****ing right to lay a hand on her.

 

[jambalaya]

I like it when anyone opens doors for me. I also like it when I do it for them. I don't care what's in the crotch of their pants. That's just decency.

Chivalry is the notion that we should only be decent to one gender, because they are weak. And furthermore, because men's needs are unimportant. That is the underlying idea behind chivalry. And every man I've ever met who's hung up on that stuff thinks a little bit like that, even if he doesn't really realize it.

I don't equate Chivarly just with the weakness of women. I look at chivalry as recognizing as a man things that he could step in and do for a woman that she might not be able to do herself or do something with which we've learned that woman would normally appreciate our help. You may have to feel a given woman out on a some things but I think modern idea of chilvary still has a place.

 

[joko104]

As I noted on other threads, Tigger wants shock-value attention. The story he told, if true at all, appears to have been at first she may have thought it was some light version of S&M pre-sex play, but then she figured out that he really is just a bully with real psychological issues about women. But since he's thread banned I won't comment further on this.

 

[MadLib]

Most of the original "fairy tales" were rather... ahem... "grim."




:mrgreen:

Mulan is almost all Disney. She would have been killed instantly if the soldiers found out her true sex.

 

[NoC_T]

We've discussed this to some degree or another in several threads recently, so I figured that maybe it was time to discuss it more specifically....

IS Chivalry Dead? Has society moved so far away from the ideals and concepts of Chivalry that it has lost its place and value in the world?

Assuming that Chivalry IS Dead, or at least Mortally Wounded, who/what is/was it that dealt that crippling blow?

Chivalry's death knell was sounded with the advent of questions pertaining to the efficacy of patriarchy.

After that, it could have been only a matter of time before such antiquated values were undermined. On balance, it may not be a bad thing, where expectations adopt a dimension beyond gender roles.

 

[missypea]

She was well aware of the potential consequences of her actions. As I said earlier, I make it well known early on that I do not accept inappropriate behavior and that there can and will be consequences to it if it occurs. As you can see, it was well known by her at that time.

As for the distain shown to me at times around here... So be it. I stopped concerning myself with what other people thought of me a long time ago. About age 5.

We were by no means a close match. I have no DESIRE to have to do what I did to her that night. No more than any parent WANTS to have to corporally discipline a child. However, through my own experiences as a child I am well aware that at times corporal punishment is the ONLY way to get through to someone; whether they're 5 or 25. She was either unwilling or unable to play by the rules that were in place. When we got back to her place I dropped her off and never spoke to her again. She did call a couple times and leave messages but it was quite obvious by that time that she was not able to maintain the sense of order and discipline I'm looking for in a relationship.

What about when you behave inappropriately, Tigger. You're a human being so you're not perfect. What consequences do you face when you're inappropriate to her?

 

[ab9924]

No, chivalry isn't dead. Most men in the United States have respect for women...in fact, more now than in years past, in my opinion. There are some women who let it be known quite clearly that they don't deserve that respect, but, for the most part, I think men treat women quite well.

This is a VERY interesting post. I would like to add, that even before the European feudal aristocracy invented chivalry, most men had wanted to show a good time to the women they had kidnapped for sex/marriage. I risk to say that the first caveman must have known that no man is happy before the women are happy, so chivalry existed before time began and will exist after the end of humanity.

Isn't it ironic, that even with all this effort, it is kinda an uphill effort to understand the attitudes and thinking of women?

I know a few women who would not let a man open the door, pull out the chair, handle their coat for them. How does that make sense?

 

[Helix]

no, it isn't even close to dead.

 

[samsmart]

We've discussed this to some degree or another in several threads recently, so I figured that maybe it was time to discuss it more specifically....

IS Chivalry Dead? Has society moved so far away from the ideals and concepts of Chivalry that it has lost its place and value in the world?

Assuming that Chivalry IS Dead, or at least Mortally Wounded, who/what is/was it that dealt that crippling blow?

I haven't read the rest of this thread, so I don't know if anyone else told you this or not, but chivalry was never around for it to die.

Depending on how you define it, that is...

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

This is a VERY interesting post. I would like to add, that even before the European feudal aristocracy invented chivalry, most men had wanted to show a good time to the women they had kidnapped for sex/marriage. I risk to say that the first caveman must have known that no man is happy before the women are happy, so chivalry existed before time began and will exist after the end of humanity.

Isn't it ironic, that even with all this effort, it is kinda an uphill effort to understand the attitudes and thinking of women?

I know a few women who would not let a man open the door, pull out the chair, handle their coat for them. How does that make sense?

You're assuming all women find chivalry to be a sign of respect. I don't. I think it's the exact reverse.

Chivalry, mind you, being different from manner. Manners dictate that no matter what the genital make-up of myself or the other person, if I am in a more convenient place to do so, I should open the door for them, and vise verse.

However, I find it mildly annoying when a guy goes totally out of his way, altering the positions of both himself and me, to open a door - as if there will be a huge problem if he doesn't get to it first and he wants to save me face. Seriously, relax. I know how doors work, and I am capable of opening them.

Leave my chair alone. You pulling it and pushing it just makes it drastically more complicated than it needs to be. I am not going to fall on my ass if you don't pull the chair, because I am not a moron. Furthermore, you are not a butler, you're my date. Leave my car door alone as well. I promise, I won't just sit there all confused until you open it.

Chivalry is inherently unequal. It treats women as delicate and stupid, and men as expendable. Chivalry and manners are not the same thing.

Understanding the various opinions of women on chivalry is no more difficult than understanding different people's opinions of virtually anything, which is something you must do every time you get in a relationship with anyone.

 

[cpwill]

Dave Chapelle's wisdom on the subject.

WARNING: NSFW :mrgreen: