Intelligent design

[presluc]

Use whatever you like, but if you want something like intelligent design to be taken seriously by anyone, you probably ought to see if you can find some actual evidence for it.

I take things as I like, anybody else takes things differant that's their business after all every human is an individual are they not?

As for evidence I have read no actual hardcore wit out a shadow of a doubt evidence being presented ?

So I might ask the same of you if you want the big bang or scientific "theory " to be taken seriously see if you can find hardcore, with out a shadow of a doubt evidence??eace

 

[presluc]

Several pages back, but here is where the problem lies. Some people seem to think that this somehow constitutes evidence. It's also the standard red herring of ID/creationists. Here's a news flash:

Evolution does not propose that everything occurs randomly.

Question ;Who wrotethat law?
Question Based on what facts?eace

 

[Jerry]

Thom Hartman interviewed a guy yesterday who blew some big holes in evolution theory.He pointed out the theory has flaws and just because you think it's wrong doesn't necessarily mean you believe in a God. Are you atheist OK with intelligent design theory as long as its a scientist or group of scientist that created us and not a "god"?

Who's Thom Hartman?
Where is your link to this interview?
Where are your liked quotes of Thom Hartman's arguments?
What exactly is Thom Hartman's argument, what holes did he allegedly blow open?
What do you mean by "Are you atheist OK with", since everything in peer review is not to be 'ok' by default.

 

[Aderleth]

I take things as I like, anybody else takes things differant that's their business after all every human is an individual are they not?

As for evidence I have read no actual hardcore wit out a shadow of a doubt evidence being presented ?

So I might ask the same of you if you want the big bang or scientific "theory " to be taken seriously see if you can find hardcore, with out a shadow of a doubt evidence??eace

Almost nothing can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Things like evolution and the big bang have been thoroughly vetted, and as I demonstrated with the link I sent you, there's a significant body of evidence in support of the big bang theory. By contrast there is absolutely no evidence - none - that supports intelligent design.

 

[Manc Skipper]

... Evidence of the Big Bang , no evidence of how or why it started no evidence of where the matter and energy came from "which according to physics" you must have to have an explosion....

The Big Bang wasn't an explosion.

 

[presluc]

UMM, that's cute, why is it posted for me,you need to check your post pal.

I have been debating that evolution is a procress not a theory for some time now.

Try to keep up Snoopy! loleace

 

[atrasicarius]

UMM, that's cute, why is it posted for me,you need to check your post pal.

I have been debating that evolution is a procress not a theory for some time now.

Try to keep up Snoopy! loleace

Yup. The process of evolution by natural selection is described by the Theory of Evolution.

 

[SlackMaster]

For anyone who wants, please feel free to use Post #131 as evidence in the Reasons you stop responding to threads or other posters? thread.

 

[presluc]

Almost nothing can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Things like evolution and the big bang have been thoroughly vetted, and as I demonstrated with the link I sent you, there's a significant body of evidence in support of the big bang theory. By contrast there is absolutely no evidence - none - that supports intelligent design.

Read post 125.

If that is not enough tell me how to get energy and matter from nothing to create an explosion start a chain reaction then based on pure coincedence and accidents just happen to have living tissue appear out of the explosion from the big bang that got started by breaking the law of physics which is matter + energy+ detonator = explosion.; not vacume + nothing = explosion

for the Big bang theory to be proven you would have to assume what was there before the big bang?

However if the big bang created the universe there would be nothing before?eace

 

[Aderleth]

Read post 125.

If that is not enough tell me how to get energy and matter from nothing to create an explosion start a chain reaction then based on pure coincedence and accidents just happen to have living tissue appear out of the explosion from the big bang that got started by breaking the law of physics which is matter + energy+ detonator = explosion.; not vacume + nothing = explosion

for the Big bang theory to be proven you would have to assume what was there before the big bang?

However if the big bang created the universe there would be nothing before?eace

You obviously didn't read the link I sent you. I'd suggest you do so, because you've got some misconceptions about the big bang.

You're also arguing from what the judge in the Dover School Board case referred to as a "contrived dualism," or what most logicians would refer to as a false dichotomy. To whit - either there's an intelligent designer, or the universe just happened by chance. Why do you believe those are the only two possibilities?

 

[presluc]

Yup. The process of evolution by natural selection is described by the Theory of Evolution.

You're misquoteing me there.

I mearly said In my opinion or belief that EVOLUTION WAS A PROCESS.

How this process works I DO NOT KNOW.

How it works by any selection or not I DID NOT SAYeace

 

[presluc]

You obviously didn't read the link I sent you. I'd suggest you do so, because you've got some misconceptions about the big bang.

You're also arguing from what the judge in the Dover School Board case referred to as a "contrived dualism," or what most logicians would refer to as a false dichotomy. To whit - either there's an intelligent designer, or the universe just happened by chance. Why do you believe those are the only two possibilities?

So let me try to understand this you have knowledge of what was considered to be... nothing around ,before the big bang?
I take it you also know how living tissues just happen to be waiting around after the big bang to start evolution?

Three words should be enough. to respond to your post.

HOW
WHERE
WHY

 

[Aderleth]

So let me try to understand this you have knowledge of what was considered to be... nothing around ,before the big bang?
I take it you also know how living tissues just happen to be waiting around after the big bang to start evolution?

Three words should be enough. to respond to your post.

HOW
WHERE
WHY

If you'd like to understand, read the link I sent you. Once again, I don't think you understand what the big bang theory actually says.

 

[presluc]

For anyone who wants, please feel free to use Post #131 as evidence in the Reasons you stop responding to threads or other posters? thread.

You don't like my response.?

No problem just sign up on a response to this post I will avoid commenting on any of your post.
Those interogitive questions or athose pesky NO responces can be pretty bad on some posters.

Unless you post to me directly I will try to avoid responding to your post.
So go find your yes posters and posters that agree with you, no hard feelingseace

 

[sawyerloggingon]

Who's Thom Hartman?
Where is your link to this interview?
Where are your liked quotes of Thom Hartman's arguments?
What exactly is Thom Hartman's argument, what holes did he allegedly blow open?
What do you mean by "Are you atheist OK with", since everything in peer review is not to be 'ok' by default.

Marduc very kindly posted a link, post 101

 

[dadman]

Thom Hartman interviewed a guy yesterday who blew some big holes in evolution theory.
He pointed out the theory has flaws and just because you think it's wrong doesn't necessarily mean you believe in a God. Are you atheist OK with intelligent design theory as long as its a scientist or group of scientist that created us and not a "god"?

Yall can apply the intelligence to whom ever you want .. as long as you correctly conclude .. it IS intelligence .. not chance

 

[Anarcho-fascist]

Thom Hartman interviewed a guy yesterday who blew some big holes in evolution theory.
He pointed out the theory has flaws and just because you think it's wrong doesn't necessarily mean you believe in a God. Are you atheist OK with intelligent design theory as long as its a scientist or group of scientist that created us and not a "god"?

Yall can apply the intelligence to whom ever you want .. as long as you correctly conclude .. it IS intelligence .. not chance

What do you mean by "chance"?

 

[dadman]

Was your phone book ( however thick it might be ) compiled by design ( intelligence ) or by chance

 

[Anarcho-fascist]

Was your phone book ( however thick it might be ) compiled by design ( intelligence ) or by chance

Is evolution "just chance"?

 

[dadman]

Is evolution "just chance"?

Category ( A ) = the result of: ( totally ) un-unconscious un-guided chaotic-randomized /
space and earth driven / natural forces and processes . . . no intelligence

Was your phone book ( however thick it might be ) compiled by design ( intelligence ) or by chance

 

[Locke and Load]

Anyone care to respond to my thoughts in post #92? It was delayed for posting for a bit but I would be interested to hear what others have to say on my thoughts.

 

[atrasicarius]

I will present my thoughts and responses to the questions on post #69 since its been requested..., it will be long so please bear with me or don't start reading if you aren't going to finish. Please keep in mind these are one person's humble opinions.

Let's start with the big bang theory. (Which by the way, does NOT explain the ORIGIN of the universe, merely how the universe got into it's present state after conception)

From Big Bang Theory

"According to the standard theory, our universe sprang into existence as "singularity" around 13.7 billion years ago. What is a "singularity" and where does it come from? Well, to be honest, we don't know for sure. Singularities are zones which defy our current understanding of physics. They are thought to exist at the core of "black holes." Black holes are areas of intense gravitational pressure. The pressure is thought to be so intense that finite matter is actually squished into infinite density (a mathematical concept which truly boggles the mind). These zones of infinite density are called "singularities." Our universe is thought to have begun as an infinitesimally small, infinitely hot, infinitely dense, something - a singularity. Where did it come from? We don't know. Why did it appear? We don't know."


As you can see from the above paragraph, the big bang theory does not explain where the universe came from, nor how it got here. In reality and based on definition, there will likely never be a "scientific" law or theory that proves where the universe came from. This is because science is the "systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation. " (dictionary.com), so basically it is knowledge about the NATURAL world. Since the appearance of the singularity that created our universe is also the start of the natural world and time, than anything outside of that would be outside of nature as we know it, therefore outside of scientific explanation or understanding. By definition it would be supernatural. Therefore, one can reasonably conclude that the universe had supernatural origins.

Also, immediately after the universe started, it expanded outward (very rapidly) but also had a TREMENDOUS amount of heat. Heat is a form of energy (thermal energy). By the law of conservation of energy (energy cannot be created or destroyed, merely transformed) that energy had to have come from somewhere, because it could not have created itself into existence. And this isn't taking into account where all of the actual matter came from.

Therefore, from the above, I have personally concluded that the universe has supernatural origins, and my own faith has led me to believe that the this supernatural force is my own christian God. Now, this does not prove ID because it does not explain the origin of life itself, however if I accept that God created the universe, it makes sense that he would have been around to help life start as well. Notice I did not say God's divine hand came down and started life. After creating the natural world, I believe it to be perfectly plausible that God could have manipulated events within the universe he created to make it possible for life to start. (Which we all know that based on pure probability, the chances of life A) starting in the first place B)going from single-celled asexually reproducing bacteria to the current state of life and C)actually survivng long enough to do all that is outrageously small, not even comprehendible.)

It could also be that God started the early stages of human's who then evolved into what we had today. Merely because I believe in God does not mean I do not believe in evolution, because I think (and hope I have explained my reasoning well) that both God and evolution can be true and bring us to our current state of today.

I didn't touch heavily on why I believe in christianity or much on evolution/the possibility of life evolving without God. If anyone wants me to I would be happen to debate and explain my reasons to you, I figured that this post was getting a little too long.

(Again the above are only my humble thoughts on the issue)

You're correct that there is still room for some type of creator at the beginning of the universe. There might always be room there, since it may be impossible to learn about the outside of our universe from inside our universe. I've made logical arguments on the subject, which I can repost if you want. What I want to know is, how do you get from "Something may have set the universe in motion" to "Jesus Christ died for our sins on the cross, and also men kissing is gross in the eyes of God"? I think I might have missed one or two steps there.

 

[Locke and Load]

The reason I have faith in Christianity are many to begin with, and in many ways still being developed/explored. Are you looking for reasons to believe in religion/faith in general or in Christianity vs. other religions?

Also on the issue of homosexuality (and all sins really)... whether or not God condemns, allows, tolerates, or even encourages homosexual behavior is hardly for us to decide. I believe that when each person's judgement day comes, God will let them know what he thinks of them perfectly fine without that individual being subjected to what we as humans think that God thinks of them. God did not put us on this earth to judge each other, we certainly have no right or responsibility to (as one of my pastors said, in terms of holiness/purity/free of sin or whatever you want to call it, we are ALL closer to Osama Bin Laden then we are to God).

Also, if you could repost your arguments on the origins of the universe or atleast their post number so that I can find them, I would enjoy seeing someone else's views on the matter.

 

[atrasicarius]

I'll just retype them real quick. We have two options here: a universe with a creator, or a universe arising on natural principles. Let's assume there's a creator. That immediately raises the problem of the origin of the creator. If we say the creator isn't infinite, then it causes an infinite regress. But why is an infinite creator acceptable when an infinite universe/multiverse isn't? Since an infinite universe based on natural principles is by definition simpler an infinite creator, it's the preferable explanation.

 

[Locke and Load]

Valid points you have there, except that an infinite universe isn't accepted because by science we are led to believe that it had a start point 13.7 billion years ago. Also, our universe could not have arisen on "natural principles" because before the universe was created, there weren't any natural principles to begin with. The only way that would tie in today or be proven is if we could create a true vaccum (remove all light, matter, gas etc.) and another universe came into being from within it. Even within a true vaccum I'm not sure that would totally mimic what was before the universe.

Although our universe may have come from another universe/dimension. I am not so closed-minded as to believe we are the only universe/dimension that is possible. But that raises the question of course of where did THAT universe come from? Another thought is, who are we to say what those other universes/dimensions are? Do you honestly believe if we somehow stumbled into another universe or dimension that it would be anything CLOSE to this one? And how do we know those other dimensions aren't heaven and hell? I know that for most people, we view earth as in the middle of heaven and hell, because you "ascend" into heaven and "descend" into hell. But they certainly aren't in this dimension. That would be like implying we could just blast a rocket up to heaven. Whether or not you believe heaven exists or not, that thought is laughable. So even with Occam's razor saying that a multi-dimensional/universe existense is simpler and more acceptable than an infinite creator (although I'm not sure how it is, we have no "scientific" evidence of either) it is still possible our universe did come from another dimension, but that this dimension be the heaven/creator (in some form) that most religions speak of.