Inside Mecca

[Laila]

Yeah, that is why I was asking her why she states Liberal as her leaning.

Islam and liberal:
I visited Iran a couple of years ago. I did not dare go out of my hotel room without a headscarf on, for fear of a public flogging, or a deportation if the police were getting bored with flogging for the day. That is how it is, in the Islamic state of Iran. I am not visiting Saudi in the near future, because compared with it, Iran is liberal.

If you did not like the rules in Iran. Why did you give money to their tourist industry?

 

[Mell]

Oh I'm so sorry, Am I annoying you?

Now, I get the impresson, that you are actually trying to annoy me. Why? Political discussions can be annoying by nature, but to try to annoy somebody, for no reason at all... OK, just skip the quesion about your political leaning. It is not a big deal.

 

[Mell]

If you did not like the rules in Iran. Why did you give money to their tourist industry?

I am a traveller. I go everywhere. Or most places at least. I have been doing it for 22 years now. Not agreeing with something for me, is not a reason to avoid taking a look at it, and/or finding out more about it. I am very glad, I had a foreign passport and plane ticket out of Iran though. Iranians, and foreign women married to Iranian men, often have to pay quite a lot and risk their lives to be smuggled out of there. It is not a country for the liberally minded.

 

[Captain America]

Islam is liberal in areas and conservatives in others.

Can you give some examples of their "liberal" viewpoints?

 

[Mell]

If you did not like the rules in Iran.

I would ask what you think of the Iranian consitution, but getting an answer out of you about that would be worse than pulling teeth. But, I suppose that is what having a discussion with the religious is like. They are trying to defend the indefensible, afterall.

 

[Laila]

Can you give some examples of their "liberal" viewpoints?

Abortion.
Islam is very reasonable and the rules placed decades ago applies very well in modern times

 

[Mell]

Can you give some examples of their "liberal" viewpoints?

The Profit Mohammad was very liberal. I would be a follower of him, back in those days. He appealed to both genders and various social classes, because of his liberal philosophies. It is a pity the muslims would not respect him more than they do. Jesus wasnt so bad either.

 

[Laila]

I would ask what you think of the Iranian consitution, but getting an answer out of you about that would be worse than pulling teeth. But, I suppose that is what having a discussion with the religious is like. They are trying to defend the indefensible, afterall.

I'm very easy to talk to lol

Why would I care about any sovereign countries constitution?
If the people dislike it, the citizens can change it otherwise, I do not see it as my business.

 

[Laila]

The Profit Mohammad was very liberal. I would be a follower of him, back in those days. He appealed to both genders and various social classes, because of his liberal philosophies. It is a pity the muslims would not respect him more than they do. Jesus wasnt so bad either.

Prophet Mohammed is one of the most revered Prophet in Islam along with Jesus so where does this 'not respecting him' occur?

 

[Mell]

Abortion.
Islam is very reasonable and the rules placed decades ago applies very well in modern times

If this is the case, the Islamic constitutions in Islamic countries are not respecting this aspect of Islam. Is there any Islamic country, where a woman can receive a safe and legal abortion?

 

[Laila]

If this is the case, the Islamic constitutions in Islamic countries are not respecting this aspect of Islam. Is there any Islamic country, where a woman can receive a safe and legal abortion?

Most Muslim countries would allow Abortion, no matter how conservative. The Qu'ran allows for exceptions.
But if you'd like some Albania,Tunisia, Turkey, Uzbekistan are just some.

 

[Mell]

Prophet Mohammed is one of the most revered Prophet in Islam along with Jesus so where does this 'not respecting him' occur?

The prophet mohammad preached gender equality. You do NOT respect this aspect of his teaching. In fact, you are downright dismissive of its importance. You were rather abrupt even when I mentioned it. Just give up being a hyprocrite, by giving up Islam.

It is a pity Mecca is in Saudi, where nothing is liberal. Otherwise we might all be allowed to enjoy its beauty, without having a pretence of being a follower of the prophet Muhammad.

 

[Mell]

I do not see it as my business.

But, you joiined a political site anyway...

 

[Laila]

The prophet mohammad preached gender equality. You do NOT respect this aspect of his teaching. In fact, you are downright dismissive of its importance. You were rather abrupt even when I mentioned it.

I'm not even going to bother expanding on my views on women's right in the Muslim world. It is fairly common knowledge on the board. I'm too tired for responding to that.

It is a pity Mecca is in Saudi, where nothing is liberal. Otherwise we might all be allowed to enjoy its beauty, without having a pretence of being a follower of the prophet Muhammad.

It doesn't matter where it would be, the rules would undoubtedly be the same.
Non Muslims will never be allowed near the kabba and rightly so.
Look at pictures if you wish to see its beauty.

 

[Degreez]

It is a pity Mecca is in Saudi, where nothing is liberal. Otherwise we might all be allowed to enjoy its beauty, without having a pretence of being a follower of the prophet Muhammad.

You can blame the House of Saud rule of Arabia on the British. Had the Hashemites that were following Husayn bin Ali not been expelling Ottoman rule, their might have been a Jordanian country that extended from the Arabian Peninsula to the Jordan River. And Jordan is a much more moderate country than Saudi.

 

[Mell]

If the people dislike it, the citizens can change it...

This is plain naive to the ridiculous. You really should know a bit more about it than this.

 

[Laila]

This is plain naive to the ridiculous. You really should know a bit more about it than this.

The populace and complicity leads to where countries are.
There was a degree of acceptance which led Iran to where it is now.
If Iranians now regret it, not my problem or business. Let them kill their leaders.

And considering Iran's history, I would argue it is you who is naive. Revolution is not exactly a foreign concept in Iran :doh

 

[Mell]

You can blame the House of Saud rule of Arabia on the British. Had the Hashemites that were following Husayn bin Ali not been expelling Ottoman rule, their might have been a Jordanian country that extended from the Arabian Peninsula to the Jordan River. And Jordan is a much more moderate country than Saudi.

A discussion is down the toilet, when comments like this start. The British are irrelevant to modern day Saudi or Islam or whatever... And, why is the point in comparing the level of conservative in Jordan, with the level of conservative in Saudi...

Anyway, I am writing this off as a poiintless 'point'

 

[Apocalypse]

would you say the same thing if it was a health club and it didn't let non member in?

You're speaking about a private land. Mecca is supposedly a public land, it's one of the most populated cities in the world.

 

[Mell]

Let them kill their leaders.

I suppose, as a muslim you would consider that to be reasonable solution. Anyway, I am off to look for another discussion...

 

[Laila]

I suppose, as a muslim you would consider that to be reasonable solution. Anyway, I am off to look for another discussion...

If said leader is oppressing them, then yes.
You see as a Muslim it is one of the exceptions in the taking of another life but I don't suppose you'd know that either.

Well bye!

 

[Apocalypse]

Well, as I said in my first post here, it's ridiculous to argue against the barring of non-Muslims from entering the lands of Mecca and Medina as long as it's such a meaningless violation in comparison to the rest of Saudi Arabia's human rights violations.

We're speaking here about the country that doesn't allow proselytizing when it's done by non-Muslims, that actually has a law saying that Muslims who convert from Islam are to be executed.
We're speaking about the country that has declared the Qur'an and the Sunnah of Muhammad to be its actual constitution, and that the Sharia law, the law of Islam, is its only law, effective on every person in Saudi Arabia, whether a Muslim or a non-Muslim.

Saudi Arabia's freedom of religion is non-existent, and so long as all of the above (and much more) exist in that place, I see it as sort of an irrelevant waste of time to argue against its barring of non-Muslims from Mecca and Medina.

 

[Thorgasm]

Non Muslims will never be allowed near the kabba and rightly so.

Why is it "rightly so"?

 

[Laila]

Why is it "rightly so"?

Because I have the view that allowing a sacred space to become little more than a tourist attraction and entertainment for the masses is a violation of the commitment to maintain it as sacred and spiritual and only for pilgrim.
I think the Saudi Arabia have an obligation to the holy cities because it resides in their country.

Such a view extends past Mecca and Medina and to all holy religious places.

 

[Thorgasm]

Because I have the view that allowing a sacred space to become little more than a tourist attraction and entertainment for the masses is a violation of the commitment to maintain it as sacred and spiritual and only for pilgrim.
I think the Saudi Arabia have an obligation to the holy cities because it resides in their country.

You say "maintain it as sacred". What does that mean?