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Inside Mecca

lizzie

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I have several friends and associates who have made the journey. I must say I have deep respect for each of them. They are a credit to their religion.
 

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Captain America

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I'm afraid if I click on the link my computer will blow up. Or big brother will kick my door in. :mrgreen:
 

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What is wrong with the image?

Mecca is not a tourist spot. Non Muslims have no need to enter it, it means nothing to them.
 

Apocalypse

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What is wrong with the image?

Mecca is not a tourist spot. Non Muslims have no need to enter it, it means nothing to them.
It's a discrimination based on religion, and hence is a violation of the universal declaration of human rights and the freedom of movement.
Though I do agree with you that it's not a big deal due to the fact that no one besides Muslims really cares about that place, and due to the fact that this is far from being the biggest human rights violation in Suadia.
 

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It's a discrimination based on religion, and hence is a violation of the universal declaration of human rights and the freedom of movement.
Though I do agree with you that it's not a big deal due to the fact that no one besides Muslims really cares about that place, and due to the fact that this is far from being the biggest human rights violation in Suadia.
Actually, I feel the same way. To me it is similar to how Mormons treat their main temple.
 

digsbe

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I agree that it is religious discrimination. It's also wrong for certain Muslim nations to slap an extra tax on non Muslims. It would be one thing if this was private property, but it isn't. It's an entire city that non Muslims are forbidden to enter. I wonder what the punishment is for sneaking into Mecca? I wonder if the Muslims who support closing off Mecca would support the Jews if they were to block of part of Jerusalem for only Jews.
 

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It's a discrimination based on religion, and hence is a violation of the universal declaration of human rights and the freedom of movement.
And if there was Jewish temple on the temple mount then that to would be a restricted area. Would that be religious discrimination to? Regardless of the belief Muslim Mormon etc why do people think that any religion is obligated to throw open its doors and let the the general public have access to traipse all over places that they consider to be sacred?

Moe
 

RightinNYC

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And if there was Jewish temple on the temple mount then that to would be a restricted area. Would that be religious discrimination to? Regardless of the belief Muslim Mormon etc why do people think that any religion is obligated to throw open its doors and let the the general public have access to traipse all over places that they consider to be sacred?

Moe
Barring entry to one particular building is somewhat different from barring entry to a city of 1.7 million people.

It's the equivalent of the Mormons banning all non-Mormons from Salt Lake City.
 

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I agree that it is religious discrimination. It's also wrong for certain Muslim nations to slap an extra tax on non Muslims. It would be one thing if this was private property, but it isn't.

It's an entire city that non Muslims are forbidden to enter. I wonder what the punishment is for sneaking into Mecca? I wonder if the Muslims who support closing off Mecca would support the Jews if they were to block of part of Jerusalem for only Jews.

What tax is slapped on non muslims in Mecca?

The punishment is harsh for a Non Muslim entering. Deportation, imprisonment or fine.

And I have absolutely no problem with Jews or Christians forbidding entry to their holy cities.
I would never visit the Vatican or go near the wailing wall for the same reason. I wouldn't want anyone entering my holy city so why should I enter theirs?
It is not my fault they have opened up their holy spots as a tourist center.
 

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Barring entry to one particular building is somewhat different from barring entry to a city of 1.7 million people.

It's the equivalent of the Mormons banning all non-Mormons from Salt Lake City.
Why is it different?

Mecca is for Muslims only, if Christians believed it was their holy spot I could understand making exceptions. But why do Non Muslims need to visit?
What do they gain from seeing or visiting:


Saudi Arabia is not a holiday country at all.
No drinking, sex, porn, beaches, bikini, sun, gambling .... The cities only purpose are religious
They are there for pilgrimage and prayer, sacred places used to fulfill one of the 5 pillars.
 
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RightinNYC

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Why is it different?
Because one is a building and one is a city of 1.7 million people?


Mecca is for Muslims only, if Christians believed it was their holy spot I could understand making exceptions. But why do Non Muslims need to visit?
What do they gain from seeing:
Are you really arguing that no non-muslim could ever benefit from visiting Mecca? Maybe they want to see that crowd. Maybe they like the atmosphere. Maybe there's a great restaurant they want to check out. Who cares?

The point is that it's a bit absurd for a state to ban non-believers from setting foot in a massive city.
 

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Because one is a building and one is a city of 1.7 million people?

Are you really arguing that no non-muslim could ever benefit from visiting Mecca? Maybe they want to see that crowd. Maybe they like the atmosphere. Maybe there's a great restaurant they want to check out. Who cares?

The point is that it's a bit absurd for a state to ban non-believers from setting foot in a massive city.
Because Mecca and Media for a Non Muslim it is just a 'great spot' or 'great view' - where they 'may' enjoy the crowd (which they wouldn't because it is religious)
For a Muslim, it is the birthplace of Prophet. The place where revelations occured, the kabba housing the great mosque and one of the building stones of Abraham, the holy well and where every Muslim must go at least once in their lifetime

They gain nothing from going to Mecca and no one is giving me reasons why to allow them in.
Only Muslims understand the sanctity of such places, Non Muslims could never understand and fully appreciate it.

Honestly, I'm split on this issue.
I think part of the mystery of Mecca is just because it is forbidden to Non Muslims.
 
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RightinNYC

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Because Mecca and Media for a Non Muslim it is just a 'great spot' or 'great view' - where they 'may' enjoy the crowd (which they wouldn't because it is religious)
For a Muslim, it is the birthplace of Prophet. The place where revelations occured, the kabba housing the great mosque, the holy well and where every Muslim must go at least once in their lifetime

They gain nothing from going to Mecca and no one is giving me reasons why to allow them in.
Only Muslims understand the sanctity of such places, Non Muslims could never understand and fully appreciate it.
So your default rule is that unless someone convinces you that they're deserving of entering the city, they should be banned? Where else in society is that type of approach acceptable?
 

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So your default rule is that unless someone convinces you that they're deserving of entering the city, they should be banned? Where else in society is that type of approach acceptable?
Doesn't every country in the world have the ability to reject people on whether they are deserving to settle in their country. It is what we call visas and citizenship.
In UK, one who isn't born here must earn their british passport by fulfilling a set criteria and exam.

The criteria for Mecca and Media is just ... different.
I don't see why Saudi Arabia should allow them in just for the sake of pleasing Non Muslims who 'may' enjoy it

I have no problem with being banned from entering Christian holy areas for the same reason, I understand its significance and if they wish to keep it holy then so be it
 
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RightinNYC

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Doesn't every country in the world have the ability to reject people on whether they are deserving to settle in their country. It is what we call visas and citizenship.
In UK, one who isn't born here must earn their british passport by fulfilling a set criteria and exam.
There's a difference between settling/becoming a citizen and simply setting foot in a country. Moreover, none of those countries bases the acceptance/rejection of a traveler simply based on religion.

The criteria for Mecca and Media is just ... different.
Exactly my point.

I don't see why Saudi Arabia should allow them in just for the sake of pleasing Non Muslims who 'may' enjoy it
And I don't see why they should keep them out of a massive city simply because they don't share the same religious beliefs.
 

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There's a difference between settling/becoming a citizen and simply setting foot in a country. Moreover, none of those countries bases the acceptance/rejection of a traveler simply based on religion

Exactly my point.
And I don't see why they should keep them out of a massive city simply because they don't share the same religious beliefs.
Non Muslims can enter Saudi Arabia
They just can't enter my holy cities.

Because it means nothing to them! What is the problem?
Non Muslims will never worship at Mecca, there is no great demand to be allowed in.
Besides, Saudi Arabia has the right to prevent anyone it wishes entering its country

I really do not understand the issue with this.
 

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Because it means nothing to them! What is the problem?
Non Muslims will never worship at Mecca, there is no great demand to be allowed in.
You don't think that there is any non-Muslim on this planet that would love to visit Mecca? For that matter, you don't think that there is any non-Muslim on this planet who has already been into Mecca?

Besides, Saudi Arabia has the right to prevent anyone it wishes entering its country
Which has nothing to do with who it bans from Mecca.

I really do not understand the issue with this.
And I don't understand how you don't see the problem with this.
 

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One or two Non Muslims must have sneaked in, I mean. The holy cities have been there for over a thousand years. The odds are kinda for that view.

No I don't think there is Non Muslims who would like to visit Mecca during Hajj especially.

Because I see it as a holy place for the faithful and religious and not a tourist attraction to entertain the masses?
Maybe you can enlighten me on what the problem is.
 

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One or two Non Muslims must have sneaked in, I mean. The holy cities have been there for over a thousand years. The odds are kinda for that view.

No I don't think there is Non Muslims who would like to visit Mecca during Hajj especially.

Because I see it as a holy place for the faithful and religious and not a tourist attraction to entertain the masses?
Maybe you can enlighten me on what the problem is.
Talladega is an important place among white people. I doubt many black people would want to visit there, especially during nascar season. Because it's so important to white people, it's perfectly reasonable to ban all black people from ever setting foot in Talladega.

Sound reasonable?
 

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Their country, their laws. Maybe if you want Saudi Arabia to support human rights you should stop buying their oil.

The laws barring entry of non-Muslims have existed before the declaration of human rights, so that argument is not really valid to me. Kind of reminds me of "Christian scientists" who claim that the Bible contains scientific evidence, even though scripture pre-dates the rise of science.

Non-muslims traditionally can't enter mosques either or attend services. It does depend on the person in charge but the vast, vast majority of mosques do not cater to non-Muslims. Mecca is just a larger version of that.

I'm okay with any religion having rules for its sacred ground.
 

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Talladega is an important place among white people. I doubt many black people would want to visit there, especially during nascar season. Because it's so important to white people, it's perfectly reasonable to ban all black people from ever setting foot in Talladega.

Sound reasonable?
I don't even know what that is so I do not care if it is banned.
 

Laila

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Their country, their laws. Maybe if you want Saudi Arabia to support human rights you should stop buying their oil.

The laws barring entry of non-Muslims have existed before the declaration of human rights, so that argument is not really valid to me. Kind of reminds me of "Christian scientists" who claim that the Bible contains scientific evidence, even though scripture pre-dates the rise of science.

Non-muslims traditionally can't enter mosques either or attend services. It does depend on the person in charge but the vast, vast majority of mosques do not cater to non-Muslims. Mecca is just a larger version of that.

I'm okay with any religion having rules for its sacred ground.
Thank you for understand this Orion.

Viewing Mecca as a holy and spiritual journey for Muslims only does not mean we are discriminatory in every aspect.

Many Mosques now open to Non Muslims for questions and to expand knowledge, after all. If someone wishes to convert or is curious, the doors are always open for them to learn and understand.
 

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Honestly, I don't see the problem with it, either. As long as they're not trying to prevent foreigners from leaving, it's their business who is allowed to go where within their own country.
 
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