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Innate Knowledge of Right and Wrong

CriticalThought

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Now where the actions could arguably be said to be immoral, is that in each individual, there exist a sense of right and wrong. Each and every homosexual knows from the very beginning of their sexual awakening that their desires for sexual gratification from those of their same gender are wrong. They know from the moment that they conclude their first homosexual encounter, that their behavior is wrong.

I felt this deserves its own thread. I would like to know what supports this view. From my own work with children I have learned there is very little that they know is "right" or "wrong" until they are socialized to know the difference. Children are taught the difference between right and wrong based on how people react to their behavior and what rewards and punishments they face to subsequently reinforce or eliminate the behavior. They also learn through watching and imitating the actions of others who serve as their role models within their environment. As I understand it from my study of developmental psychology and my personal experiences, children learn morals and appropriate social behavior through socialization and acculturation not through some innate, inborn source. If there is some evidence to indicate otherwise, I would love to see it, particularly since the poster above bases his entire moral argument against homosexuality on its alleged existence.
 

ashurbanipal

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I do think there are innate ideas of right and wrong, but I doubt they are necessarily the same for all individuals. I seriously doubt that homosexuals "know" somehow that their actions are wrong. Some, perhaps most, may experience some shame due to socialization when they discover their sexual orientation, but I don't think there's any evidence to suggest they know it's wrong. People who think otherwise are likely to be heterosexuals who imagine how they would feel having sex with a person of the same gender.
 

Fisher

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I am not particularly impressed with most adults' sense of right and wrong. I sometimes think my kids have it closer to right than I do.
 

lizzie

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Children are taught the difference between right and wrong based on how people react to their behavior and what rewards and punishments they face to subsequently reinforce or eliminate the behavior. They also learn through watching and imitating the actions of others who serve as their role models within their environment.

I personally think it's our ability to imagine which accounts for whatever sense of right and wrong may be inherent. Iow, the ability to empathize with another human, which requires imagination, likely determines it. I doubt it has anything to do with sexuality and sexual orientation.
 

Captain America

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You gave this guy a thread?

As long as we have people like AmericanbyChoic in our society, I don't see HOW children, that are gay, could possibly NOT grow up thinking they are a freak of nature.

The best we can hope to do is educate those kind of people, still capable of education, and wish a better life for these poor children who have made to feel "less than," by these mental abusers. That, and be patient. Most folks that think like that will be dead soon enough. Time has a way of culling out dreg ideologies from our midsts.
 

Juiposa

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I felt this deserves its own thread. I would like to know what supports this view. From my own work with children I have learned there is very little that they know is "right" or "wrong" until they are socialized to know the difference. Children are taught the difference between right and wrong based on how people react to their behavior and what rewards and punishments they face to subsequently reinforce or eliminate the behavior. They also learn through watching and imitating the actions of others who serve as their role models within their environment. As I understand it from my study of developmental psychology and my personal experiences, children learn morals and appropriate social behavior through socialization and acculturation not through some innate, inborn source. If there is some evidence to indicate otherwise, I would love to see it, particularly since the poster above bases his entire moral argument against homosexuality on its alleged existence.

There is no innate knowledge. Everything we know is based on experience and thought. I agree with you that any sense of right or wrong is learned, and not an innate feature.
 

Captain Adverse

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I felt this deserves its own thread. I would like to know what supports this view. From my own work with children I have learned there is very little that they know is "right" or "wrong" until they are socialized to know the difference. Children are taught the difference between right and wrong based on how people react to their behavior and what rewards and punishments they face to subsequently reinforce or eliminate the behavior. They also learn through watching and imitating the actions of others who serve as their role models within their environment. As I understand it from my study of developmental psychology and my personal experiences, children learn morals and appropriate social behavior through socialization and acculturation not through some innate, inborn source. If there is some evidence to indicate otherwise, I would love to see it, particularly since the poster above bases his entire moral argument against homosexuality on its alleged existence.

First, it's good to see that in the original thread from the individual you quoted, I nailed his purpose on the head with my post #25. LOL :)

I don't think there are any "innate" morals when a child is born. I think all morality is learned from the parents and growth within the social environment. I think adults within each social grouping develop morals through social interactions and experiences with their actual physical environment. Ideas of Good and Evil exist relative to these factors.

I do think there are innate ideas of right and wrong, but I doubt they are necessarily the same for all individuals. I seriously doubt that homosexuals "know" somehow that their actions are wrong. Some, perhaps most, may experience some shame due to socialization when they discover their sexual orientation, but I don't think there's any evidence to suggest they know it's wrong. People who think otherwise are likely to be heterosexuals who imagine how they would feel having sex with a person of the same gender.

If morals were innate they would be born within each and every child. There would be the same moral starting position for all human beings. If this were so, then we would have to explain how and why they change from group to group.

Much of morality can be traced to evolutionary adaptation.

I think I would say social evolution rather than physical.
 

Canell

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If one believes in reincarnation, one must admit there is an innate knowledge of right and wrong. Of course, this knowledge would depend on the level of your soul evolution, so it would greatly vary. :)
 

MoSurveyor

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I felt this deserves its own thread. I would like to know what supports this view.
Nothing that I know of supports that view. Virtually everything in morality is sociocentric including the topic discussed in the quote.

Survival and replicating our genes are the only things innate in most animals. That some animals are programmed not to replicate their own genes directly doesn't mean they don't replicate them indirectly by helping siblings or cousins. No "natural laws" are violated with homosexuality any more than jumping on a grenade to save a half dozen friends violates the natural law of survival.
 

ashurbanipal

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CaptainAdverse said:
If morals were innate they would be born within each and every child.

Yes, this seems to be true by definition.

CaptainAdverse said:
There would be the same moral starting position for all human beings.

But if this is intended to be inferred from the above, it does not follow. As you note below, morals seem to change from group to group (and even individual to individual). There's no reason to suppose that human beings cannot each be born with an innate but distinct moral code. In fact, I think that's largely the case.

CaptainAdverse said:
If this were so, then we would have to explain how and why they change from group to group.

Feel free to point out the flaw in my argument, but I think the above idea accounts for this quite well.
 

fmw

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I felt this deserves its own thread. I would like to know what supports this view. From my own work with children I have learned there is very little that they know is "right" or "wrong" until they are socialized to know the difference.
I don't think you are giving children enough credit. My dog knows when he has done something wrong and shows it.
 

code1211

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I felt this deserves its own thread. I would like to know what supports this view. From my own work with children I have learned there is very little that they know is "right" or "wrong" until they are socialized to know the difference. Children are taught the difference between right and wrong based on how people react to their behavior and what rewards and punishments they face to subsequently reinforce or eliminate the behavior. They also learn through watching and imitating the actions of others who serve as their role models within their environment. As I understand it from my study of developmental psychology and my personal experiences, children learn morals and appropriate social behavior through socialization and acculturation not through some innate, inborn source. If there is some evidence to indicate otherwise, I would love to see it, particularly since the poster above bases his entire moral argument against homosexuality on its alleged existence.



I went to Catholic Grade School and was taught quite clearly that if it is pleasurable in any way, it is innately wrong.

By that standard, all homosexual sex, or straight sex for that matter, is wrong.

If it isn't at least a little bit wrong and you're a Catholic, it just ain't sexy.
 

code1211

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Nothing that I know of supports that view. Virtually everything in morality is sociocentric including the topic discussed in the quote.

Survival and replicating our genes are the only things innate in most animals. That some animals are programmed not to replicate their own genes directly doesn't mean they don't replicate them indirectly by helping siblings or cousins. No "natural laws" are violated with homosexuality any more than jumping on a grenade to save a half dozen friends violates the natural law of survival.



The point in red is a very interesting idea. This would obviously stop the possibility of spreading one's genes, but the story of this is so selfless and so well known that it does affect the evolution of the ideals in society.

Of course, the action of being a suicide bomber is the same and has the same personal and societal evolutionary impacts.

As humans, we exist on multiple planes as individuals and group members. We are more affected by the societal than by the specie evolution.
 

wolfie

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CriticalThought

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I don't think you are giving children enough credit. My dog knows when he has done something wrong and shows it.

Did your dog know it was wrong to piss on the carpet when he was a puppy or was it something you had to teach him?
 

sangha

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I don't think you are giving children enough credit. My dog knows when he has done something wrong and shows it.

Your behavior informs the dog that your unhappy with him and he behaves submissively in reaction. Dogs feel no guilt.
 

MoSurveyor

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The point in red is a very interesting idea. This would obviously stop the possibility of spreading one's genes, but the story of this is so selfless and so well known that it does affect the evolution of the ideals in society.

Of course, the action of being a suicide bomber is the same and has the same personal and societal evolutionary impacts.

As humans, we exist on multiple planes as individuals and group members. We are more affected by the societal than by the specie evolution.
Is your last statement saying you think memes (well-known ideas) have more of an effect on us than our genes?


PS
I hope you're NOT talking about "collective memory" ...?
 

code1211

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Is your last statement saying you think memes (well-known ideas) have more of an effect on us than our genes?


PS
I hope you're NOT talking about "collective memory" ...?




No.

I'm talking about how we become members of groups and how those groups affect us. These groups can be as loose as a groups that all watch a particular TV show to a group that shares a particular goal and works methodically and constantly to achieve that goal.

So people who all watch Two and Half Men may all start to use the same idioms and the simple act of changing the way an individual speaks often changes the way that individual thinks.

As our groups evolve, we evolve. The Boy Scouts seem to be evolving as a group right now. Of course this evolution is driven by and dependent on the evolution of the society in they exist. Some evolution is by design and some by natural growth, the same as biological evolution.

Our ability to accept and to interpret anything is often the result of the places and people that we value.

I'm not sure I understand what a "collective memory" is. Is this a shared understanding of history like "George Washington chopped down the Cherry tree" or is it some kind of a telepathic connection like a Vulcan mind meld?
 

Cardinal

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I felt this deserves its own thread. I would like to know what supports this view. From my own work with children I have learned there is very little that they know is "right" or "wrong" until they are socialized to know the difference. Children are taught the difference between right and wrong based on how people react to their behavior and what rewards and punishments they face to subsequently reinforce or eliminate the behavior. They also learn through watching and imitating the actions of others who serve as their role models within their environment. As I understand it from my study of developmental psychology and my personal experiences, children learn morals and appropriate social behavior through socialization and acculturation not through some innate, inborn source. If there is some evidence to indicate otherwise, I would love to see it, particularly since the poster above bases his entire moral argument against homosexuality on its alleged existence.

Americanbychoic's comment is obviously ignorant at best, and reminds me of the occasionally made claim that people are born Christian (seriously). Morality is the result of the social contract, nothing else.
 

afr0byte

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I am fascinated by the collective memory theory..

For instance..

Florida veteran passes out in motel and wakes up speaking Swedish | Metro News

How can this happen??

I am also interested in transplant recipients who take on the personal habits of the donors organ..

Now called “cellular memory''.

Hmm, the article seems to indicate that he knew Swedish before the accident. I'd guess something got damaged in his brain to make him think of Swedish as his native tongue.
 

MoSurveyor

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No.

I'm talking about how we become members of groups and how those groups affect us. These groups can be as loose as a groups that all watch a particular TV show to a group that shares a particular goal and works methodically and constantly to achieve that goal.

So people who all watch Two and Half Men may all start to use the same idioms and the simple act of changing the way an individual speaks often changes the way that individual thinks.

As our groups evolve, we evolve. The Boy Scouts seem to be evolving as a group right now. Of course this evolution is driven by and dependent on the evolution of the society in they exist. Some evolution is by design and some by natural growth, the same as biological evolution.

Our ability to accept and to interpret anything is often the result of the places and people that we value.
The bolded portion is what makes a meme. It's a term coined to represent the social equivalent of a gene, which does seem to be what you're talking about.


I agree that memes can have a big effect on human behavior. They adapt and change many times faster than genes but, unlike genes, we usually get to pick and choose which ones we adopt - though you're certainly correct that we may adopt some and not even know it.


I'm not sure I understand what a "collective memory" is. Is this a shared understanding of history like "George Washington chopped down the Cherry tree" or is it some kind of a telepathic connection like a Vulcan mind meld?
IMO, it's a very wacky idea of, yes, some kind of telepathic connection if you like combined with long-term memory. In other words, it's perpetuated down the years. I mentioned it because someone else seemed to interpret your post that way. If you don't know what it is then we're good. I've had enough fantasy nonsense for one week. ;)
 

wolfie

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Hmm, the article seems to indicate that he knew Swedish before the accident. I'd guess something got damaged in his brain to make him think of Swedish as his native tongue.

But he wasn't Swedish..had never been there..

How can your brain make you think you are Swedish..up to the point of speaking the language??
 

code1211

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The bolded portion is what makes a meme. It's a term coined to represent the social equivalent of a gene, which does seem to be what you're talking about.


I agree that memes can have a big effect on human behavior. They adapt and change many times faster than genes but, unlike genes, we usually get to pick and choose which ones we adopt - though you're certainly correct that we may adopt some and not even know it.


IMO, it's a very wacky idea of, yes, some kind of telepathic connection if you like combined with long-term memory. In other words, it's perpetuated down the years. I mentioned it because someone else seemed to interpret your post that way. If you don't know what it is then we're good. I've had enough fantasy nonsense for one week. ;)


The great thing about our minds is the ability to appreciate fantasy nonsense.

Without that within us, our politicians would have nothing to say.
 
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