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I'm appalled. Policeman discriminated against.

Gina

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I'm calling out my own on this and it illustrates a point I was making in another thread on Rand Paul and his statements regarding The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the rights of private businesses not to serve patrons based on the owners' prejudices.

While the officer was not discriminated against for the color of his skin, but for the what his clothing represents, it's still discrimination.

In mid-May, Portland police Officer James Crooker went to Southeast Portland on a patrol call. With a few minutes to spare, he decided to get a coffee.

So, he popped into the Red & Black cafe on Southeast 12th Avenue near Oak Street, bought a coffee and was heading out when a customer approached him, saying she appreciates the hard job that police officers do every day in Portland.

One of the co-owners of the cafe, John Langley, has another point of view. While the officer and customer were chatting, he walked up and asked Crooker to leave, saying he felt uncomfortable having a uniformed officer in the vegan cafe.
Red & Black cafe shows Portland officer the door, won't sell him coffee again | OregonLive.com

There is a back story here. There have been several questionable police shootings in the last couple years in Portland and that's what the owner had in mind when this incident occurred. I call BS. There is little difference between discriminating over those incidents thereby coloring all police officers as dangerous, and discriminating because one's errant bigoted veiw of non-whites.

This exactly illustrates the point I was making in the other thread. If it's ok for a business owner to discriminate on the basis of race, then it's ok for the owner of the coffee shop to discriminate based on the officer's uniform. Yes, he could come back any other time, not in uniform, but why should be forced to do that in order to be served? (Yes, I realize he got the coffee before being asked to leave, but he is clearly not welcome to return in uniform.)

Being a policeman is not a race and it's not an apples to apples comparison, but it's offensive none-the-less. Discrimination always is.
 

Goshin

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I'm calling out my own on this and it illustrates a point I was making in another thread on Rand Paul and his statements regarding The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the rights of private businesses not to serve patrons based on the owners' prejudices.

While the officer was not discriminated against for the color of his skin, but for the what his clothing represents, it's still discrimination.



Red & Black cafe shows Portland officer the door, won't sell him coffee again | OregonLive.com

There is a back story here. There have been several questionable police shootings in the last couple years in Portland and that's what the owner had in mind when this incident occurred. I call BS. There is little difference between discriminating over those incidents thereby coloring all police officers as dangerous, and discriminating because one's errant bigoted veiw of non-whites.

This exactly illustrates the point I was making in the other thread. If it's ok for a business owner to discriminate on the basis of race, then it's ok for the owner of the coffee shop to discriminate based on the officer's uniform. Yes, he could come back any other time, not in uniform, but why should be forced to do that in order to be served? (Yes, I realize he got the coffee before being asked to leave, but he is clearly not welcome to return in uniform.)

Being a policeman is not a race and it's not an apples to apples comparison, but it's offensive none-the-less. Discrimination always is.

I believe a business owner can refuse service to whomever he pleases, for whatever reason he pleases, under freedom of association.

Having said that, the officer and his friends are free to picket the place and tell people why, and the community is free to boycott the business in disgust at the owner's attitude and practices.

Yes, I know SCOTUS doesn't agree with me. I think the free-association approach would work just as well in most cases, however. I can't prove it, because we haven't tried it in modern times. I think public opinion would keep the vast majority of businesses from engaging in discriminatory practices.

Having said THAT, I think the owner is an idiot, but being an idiot is his right as a free American.
 
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Based on my own personal experiences with police, you're either a victim, a witness or a suspect, and that generally police contacts are negative experiences. It's best to avoid someone that has the power to arrest you whenever they want. With that being said, this was probably a dumb thing to do, but not that big of a deal and I have absolutely no idea why this article was written about it or why we're talking about it on an international discussion forum.

While the officer was not discriminated against for the color of his skin, but for the what his clothing represents, it's still discrimination.
Discrimination isn't always bad, so I don't see this as an argument, either.
 

Ikari

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If it's ok for a business owner to discriminate on the basis of race, then it's ok for the owner of the coffee shop to discriminate based on the officer's uniform.
Indeed, if a business can discriminate along race, then they can also discriminate upon profession. That's that. And it's within the rights of the business owner to do so. I think it's high time people start learning that their isn't a right against being offended. You'll find a great many offensive things in this world. I find it offensive that many people can't do simple math or use their brains; but nothing I can do about it. And that's the attitude that needs to be adopted. So long as the rights of the individual are not infringed upon, we have to learn to deal with it. Even if its stuff we don't like or condone ourselves. That's one of the consequences of freedom.
 

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Based on my own personal experiences with police, you're either a victim, a witness or a suspect, and that generally police contacts are negative experiences. It's best to avoid someone that has the power to arrest you whenever they want. With that being said, this was probably a dumb thing to do, but not that big of a deal and I have absolutely no idea why this article was written about it or why we're talking about it on an international discussion forum.



Discrimination isn't always bad, so I don't see this as an argument, either.


Seriously? :shock:
 

Gina

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I believe a business owner can refuse service to whomever he pleases, for whatever reason he pleases, under freedom of association.

Having said that, the officer and his friends are free to picket the place and tell people why, and the community is free to boycott the business in disgust at the owner's attitude and practices.

Yes, I know SCOTUS doesn't agree with me. I think the free-association approach would work just as well in most cases, however. I can't prove it, because we haven't tried it in modern times. I think public opinion would keep the vast majority of businesses from engaging in discriminatory practices.

Having said THAT, I think the owner is an idiot, but being an idiot is his right as a free American.
It's a public space, open to the public. If they want to run a private coffee shop and only serve, dreadlocked, Birkenstock wearing hippies, fine and dandy but that isn't the case.

Further, this country, I thought stood for something greater.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Our nation was founded on that proposition. It doesn't say that property owners are more equal and have rights above the rest of us.

Yes, the SCOTUS does disagree with you, thank goodness. I don't believe the free market should be the arbiter of civil rights.


Based on my own personal experiences with police, you're either a victim, a witness or a suspect, and that generally police contacts are negative experiences. It's best to avoid someone that has the power to arrest you whenever they want. With that being said, this was probably a dumb thing to do, but not that big of a deal and I have absolutely no idea why this article was written about it or why we're talking about it on an international discussion forum.



Discrimination isn't always bad, so I don't see this as an argument, either.
Wow, just...wow. And I'm unaware that there is a requirement that all discussions must have only an international interest. The fact there are individual forums for U.S. Elections, Constitution and Party Platforms would seem to refute that.

Indeed, if a business can discriminate along race, then they can also discriminate upon profession. That's that. And it's within the rights of the business owner to do so. I think it's high time people start learning that their isn't a right against being offended. You'll find a great many offensive things in this world. I find it offensive that many people can't do simple math or use their brains; but nothing I can do about it. And that's the attitude that needs to be adopted. So long as the rights of the individual are not infringed upon, we have to learn to deal with it. Even if its stuff we don't like or condone ourselves. That's one of the consequences of freedom.
The offensive behavior of the business owner is not what I'm addressing. That is my reaction, sure, but the act of discriminating is the problem, not my reaction.

Seriously? :shock:
I know, huh? I'm really baffled at what is going on this country. It seems more, now than ever, that business, property, wealth and the service of them, are subverting our principles.
 
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"Seriously?" isn't a response. What I said is absolutely true. Minors are discriminated against in that they can't drink alcohol, for example. I don't really have much of a problem with discriminating against police, but comparing it to racism is absolutely stupid.
 

new coup for you

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This is a self solving problem...how quickly do you think the police will respond to any emergency calls from that place?

You can now officially rob that cafe all day, every day, without any chance that the cops will intervene.
 

Cold Highway

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This is a self solving problem...how quickly do you think the police will respond to any emergency calls from that place?

You can now officially rob that cafe all day, every day, without any chance that the cops will intervene.
A shotgun solves that problem really quick
 

pragmatic

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"Seriously?" isn't a response. What I said is absolutely true. Minors are discriminated against in that they can't drink alcohol, for example. I don't really have much of a problem with discriminating against police, but comparing it to racism is absolutely stupid.
Interesting. Are 12 year olds victims of discrimination because they are not allowed to drive cars...??


.
 

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An impotent lefty rabble rouser simply hoisting his flag. To use a common lefty tactic....boycott Red and Black cafe.
 

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Interesting. Are 12 year olds victims of discrimination because they are not allowed to drive cars...??


.
"Discrimination"...the buzz word that elicits a Pavlovian response from the tortured, guilt riddled psyches of lefties everywhere.....everyone is oppressed. Everyone is a victim.
 
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Cole said:
Interesting. Are 12 year olds victims of discrimination because they are not allowed to drive cars...??
Yes, of course they are. Discrimination means treating a group differently based on some aspect of that group. So yes, 12 year olds certainly are discriminated against regarding driving restrictions. That is called age discrimination.

webrockk said:
"Discrimination"...the buzz word that elicits a Pavlovian response from the tortured, guilt riddled psyches of lefties everywhere.....everyone is oppressed. Everyone is a victim.
You need to learn to read; my entire point was that discrimination isn't always a bad thing.
 
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webrockk

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Yes, of course they are. Discrimination means treating a group differently based on some aspect of that group. So yes, 12 year olds certainly are discriminated against regarding driving restrictions. That is called age discrimination.



You need to learn to read; my entire point was that discrimination isn't always a bad thing.
You need to choose your words more carefully. "Discrimination" is not a very accurate or truthful depiction of a minors prohibition from alcohol....
 
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Cold Highway

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An impotent lefty rabble rouser simply hoisting his flag. To use a common lefty tactic....boycott Red and Black cafe.
I see nothing wrong with refusing service to the street gangs of the government. The pigs can go find another place to waste tax payer dollars on.
 

Psychoclown

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I gotta agree with Goshin. It was a stupid and offensive thing to say, but as the owner of the store, he had ever right do so. And I suspect this place is getting a huge amount of negative publicity locally and business will be affected accordingly, unless the owner does a 180 and apologizes. The power of an informed consumer in the free market can do wonders. Businesses with open discrimination policies (whether it be against cops or blacks) aren't economically viable in this day and age.
 

webrockk

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I see nothing wrong with refusing service to the street gangs of the government. The pigs can go find another place to waste tax payer dollars on.
"Anarchy now!!" libertarians make me throw up in my mouth a little bit.

Please further explain the feasibility of your lawless society.
 
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webrockk said:
You need to choose your words more carefully. "Discrimination" is not a very accurate or truthful depiction of a minors prohibition from alcohol....
Actually it is both accurate and truthful.
 

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It's a public space, open to the public. If they want to run a private coffee shop and only serve, dreadlocked, Birkenstock wearing hippies, fine and dandy but that isn't the case. .
You're confusing public property, ie everyone owns the highways/government buildings/etc... equally, with a privately owned and operated business. A business owner is not obligated to serve everyone and can refuse service for anything that the owner or the workers do not want in their shops. Let me guess it's discrimination for telling children and adults that they can't wear masks on Halloween or on really cold days into stores due to it hiding their identity.

Further, this country, I thought stood for something greater.
The principles are freedom to pursue life, liberty (freedom from government restraint), and the pursuit of happiness. Part of that is freedom of contracts and association. You cannot make someone accept another person just because you say so without infringing upon the owner's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

Our nation was founded on that proposition. It doesn't say that property owners are more equal and have rights above the rest of us.
All rights are founded upon property ownership, starting with you owning your body at birth. Since you think that you have equal rights to someone else's property what would you say if a group of people came over to your house or business and trashed it? I bet you'd be saying well they can't do it because it's my property. Does this mean you have more rights then the people that trashed your home or business?
 

Cold Highway

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"Anarchy now!!"
Try reading up on Libertarian thought before sqwauking anarchy the two are very different.

libertarians make me throw up in my mouth a little bit.
Good I hope you choke and die on your own vomit one day. The feeling is mutual for consevatives like you who think cops are these golden boys who can do no wrong.

Please further explain the feasibility of your lawless society.
Never advocated a lawless society, keep trying.
 

Goshin

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I see nothing wrong with refusing service to the street gangs of the government. The pigs can go find another place to waste tax payer dollars on.
Geeze, Chevy... bit over the top, dontcha think?

I've decided to withdraw my previous endorsement of this business owner's actions. I think he was wrong.

A place of business that is normally open to the public should be open to ALL the public. He should not be allowed to discriminate based on race, religion, occupation, political affiliation, or other specifics. If he's open to the public, he should serve any law-abiding customer.

For instance, a business owner should not be allowed to discriminate against people with concealed carry permits, by posting his business against concealed carry. :mrgreen:



:popcorn2:
 

AGENT J

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I'm calling out my own on this and it illustrates a point I was making in another thread on Rand Paul and his statements regarding The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the rights of private businesses not to serve patrons based on the owners' prejudices.

While the officer was not discriminated against for the color of his skin, but for the what his clothing represents, it's still discrimination.



Red & Black cafe shows Portland officer the door, won't sell him coffee again | OregonLive.com

There is a back story here. There have been several questionable police shootings in the last couple years in Portland and that's what the owner had in mind when this incident occurred. I call BS. There is little difference between discriminating over those incidents thereby coloring all police officers as dangerous, and discriminating because one's errant bigoted veiw of non-whites.

This exactly illustrates the point I was making in the other thread. If it's ok for a business owner to discriminate on the basis of race, then it's ok for the owner of the coffee shop to discriminate based on the officer's uniform. Yes, he could come back any other time, not in uniform, but why should be forced to do that in order to be served? (Yes, I realize he got the coffee before being asked to leave, but he is clearly not welcome to return in uniform.)

Being a policeman is not a race and it's not an apples to apples comparison, but it's offensive none-the-less. Discrimination always is.
John Langley is totally gross, ignorant and appauling. That is all :D
 

FinnMacCool

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It makes complete sense that they wouldn't serve him. For a few reasons:

First of all, these are ANARCHISTS. Anarchists and police tend to not get along :)

Second of all, as a business, they have a right not to serve whoever they want.

I completely support the decision of the Red and Black Cafe to not serve the police officer.
 

Regicollis

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I can't see why it was necessary to ask the police officer to leave. He was just a guy grabbing a cup of coffee, whether you're anarchist or not you have to distinguish between the police and they individual police officer. No matter what your political affiliation is you have to learn to get along with those who think different than you do. Of course the café can make a dress code that prohibits uniforms, just as well as you can make a dress code that prohibits bare shoulders, but it would be just as stupid, pretentious and snobby as every other dress code.

Another reason it was stupid is that it can only be good for the anarchists if police officers come and see that anarchist are people like everyone else and that they do other things than throwing bricks.

Although I think it was stupid and rather intolerant to ask the police officer to leave the situation cannot be compared with apartheid in the south states in the 60's. It is baseless discrimination but not as harmful as discriminating against race. Being a police officer is a choice, race is not. Police officers can take their uniform off if they want to go to a "no uniforms" café; black people can't change their skin colour if they want to go to a "whites only" café.
 
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