If We Are Born Sinners, Then Why Can't We Be Born Gay?

[Tucker Case]

I'll do some reading on that for you and get back to you, can you send that to me in a PM?

No problem.

 

[Captain America]

I find humor with people who have problems with "sins," of other people's that differ from their own "sins."

When Jesus said, "He who is without sin cast the first stone," he might as well have said, "Mattress sale at McCurdy's this Labor Day weekend." :roll:

 

[Tucker Case]

I find humor with people who have problems with "sins," of other people's that differ from their own "sins."

When Jesus said, "He who is without sin cast the first stone," he might as well have said, "Mattress sale at McCurdy's this Labor Day weekend." :roll:

"STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT RIGHT NOW! STOP IT! All right, no one is to stone _anyone_ until I blow this whistle. Even... and I want to make this absolutely clear... even if they do say, "Jehovah.""

 

[davidtaylorjr]

"STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT RIGHT NOW! STOP IT! All right, no one is to stone _anyone_ until I blow this whistle. Even... and I want to make this absolutely clear... even if they do say, "Jehovah.""

Can we use an air horn instead? And can we also get fog machines and strobe lights? :alert

 

[Tucker Case]

Can we use an air horn instead? And can we also get fog machines and strobe lights? :alert

:lol: Have you ever seen Monty Python's The Life of Brian? It'd be interesting to get a devout Christian's take on that movie.

 

[davidtaylorjr]

:lol: Have you ever seen Monty Python's The Life of Brian? It'd be interesting to get a devout Christian's take on that movie.

No I haven't. Only seen the Holy Grail.

 

[Tucker Case]

No I haven't. Only seen the Holy Grail.

Well, I honestly won't recommend The Life of Brian because it's possible you could either find it absolutely hilarious or incredibly offensive. Could go either way. I love the movie, though.

 

[nota bene]

:lol: Have you ever seen Monty Python's The Life of Brian? It'd be interesting to get a devout Christian's take on that movie.

Although I was a huge Monty Python fan with crushes on Graham Chapman (rest in peace) and John Cleese, I never did see that movie. I knew from the reviews not to.

 

[Smeagol]

You did not answer my question: Why do Evangelicals make the claim that one cannot be born gay?

I've heard different positions and their reasons. One was if its genetic it therefore must be inherited and since homosexuals don't reproduce, at least presumably not in large numbers, genetically passed on tendencies of homosexuality therefore if true would eventually no longer exist since it could not be passed down. Another was we're all born with the capacity for sin and even a leaning for sin, some sins can take on an additive nature that is hard to break and sexually based addictions of any type are particularly difficult struggles. Others believe environmental factors during formative years as sexual awareness is occurs; for example if a child is molested repeatedly by a member of the same sex or has an abusive parent where the child begins to associate a highly resented parent with what a man or woman represents in some cases they believe that environmental trauma could alter the person's sexual orientation. Still others believe its a result of a powerful spiritual attack, the likes of which I won't confuse anyone. There are a host of evangelical opinions on the causes for homosexuality. The only thing where there tends to be a consensus among evangelicals is that the Bible, which evangelicals consider to be the word of God, defines homosexual acts as sin, displeases God and needs forgiveness and grace as any other sin be it stealing, lying or heterosexual relations among people who have no plan to be in a committed lifelong relationship or are already in one with someone else.

 

[Tucker Case]

Although I was a huge Monty Python fan with crushes on Graham Chapman (rest in peace) and John Cleese, I never did see that movie. I knew from the reviews not to.

It's my favorite one of the Monty Python flicks. But I can certainly see why some people wouldn't like it.

 

[CLAX1911]

I find humor with people who have problems with "sins," of other people's that differ from their own "sins."

When Jesus said, "He who is without sin cast the first stone," he might as well have said, "Mattress sale at McCurdy's this Labor Day weekend." :roll:

Some people simply take a black marker to parts of the Bible. Especially when it comes to things like sexuality.

 

[CLAX1911]

Serous Question: Can anyone cite any Red Text section of the bible that says anything bad about homosexuals?

It seems to me that many Christians are really Paulians in the way they practice their faith, but Paul never even met the living Christ.

Paul never said that homosexuality was sinful, neither did Christ, no such word either direct word or language equivalent existed at the time the Bible was created.

The word that is being interpreted as homosexual is arsenokoitai, which translates thusly Arseno meaning male, koitai meaning bed. We can assume this means male "bedder" or sometime who takes males to bed. but if you look at the context you see the word malakos, which means soft, weak, tender, depending on the context. The word malakos is used to describe clothing in other parts of the Bible. This could mean white, or soft to the touch, it all depends on context. You also see the term pornos as an adjective. Pornos means prostitute, sex slave, temple sex partner, a person designated for sex. Depends again on context. You also see the word catamites which means male child or male that has no beard. These words appear in leviticus as well as in Romans.

Early in leviticus it states that it is an abomination to shave your beard, so Jewish men didn't cut the hair on their chin. Temple prostitutes did if they were old enough to have a need to cut it. Also Paul also says in Corinthians 11 all sorts of rules about hair cuts, while leviticus says if you cut your hair you are an abomination. Hair styles are mentioned 16 times in various books of the Bible.

Why this is important is because during the time the Bible was written there weren't many Jews there were very many pagans, and it is a pagan practice to have orgies, gender didn't matter just that you participate in this form of worship, it was mandatory. If there wasn't enough women they used slaves which were often children. Since ancient Jewish culture viewed women as lesser people female children were simply not cared about.

So we put this all together, it seems that what the original text of Corinthians was forbidding the act of having sex with boy sex slaves.

Homosexuality isn't an act it is a state of being.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Well, I honestly won't recommend The Life of Brian because it's possible you could either find it absolutely hilarious or incredibly offensive. Could go either way. I love the movie, though.

If you have seen the bio of john cleese and Eric idle, they wanted it to be offensive, but its just too damned funny. Especially Pilate and his lisp.

 

[Grand Mal]

No, disobedience to God would be the original sin.

I'm gonna get lengthy here- this is a topic I'm interested in. Please break my reply into fragments if need be to show me where I'm wrong.
God created mankind to take the place, fill the vacancies, in heaven left when Lucifer and his followers fell from grace. He created Eden to nurture his new progeny but for some reason he put two forbidden trees there, the tree who's fruit gives knowledge and the tree who's fruit gives everlasting life.
I see this as a nice allegory, a creation myth. Every culture has one. To me, when mankind 'ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge', they became agriculturalists. Cain was a planter, Able a herdsman. With agriculture came the capability of producing a surplus and all of the evils that have befallen mankind since have been a result of trying to answer the question, "who will control the surplus?" That was the result of our fall from grace, our abandonment of our natural role in the garden.
See what I mean? I believe the Bible has important lessons for us but we need to read it more carefully than we do a user's manual for a mitre saw or a guide for fishing a certain area.

 

[winston53660]

If you have seen the bio of john cleese and Eric idle, they wanted it to be offensive, but its just too damned funny. Especially Pilate and his lisp.

Okay where is the bio?

 

[CLAX1911]

.
See what I mean? I believe the Bible has important lessons for us but we need to read it more carefully than we do a user's manual for a mitre saw or a guide for fishing a certain area.

You are 100% correct here. We need to make better efforts to understand the Bible.

 

[Dittohead not!]

In the Bible, yes it is a sin. Whether natural inclination or not - it is clearly stated.

Yes, but it is also clearly stated that sowing two kinds of crops in the same field is a sin. Much of what is interpreted in the Bible as homosexuality is actually about idolatry, and a lot of it, particularly my reference to Leviticus, is the result of questionable translations.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Wow! That's a lot of anger, rightly so.
We do have free will which is to say I don't believe he's orchestrating your every step in life.
I'm sorry you are experiencing so much pain in your life.

You have mistaken simple deduction for anger. So dont be concerned about me personally just explain to me why a god would plan on creating so many genetic diseases? WHy would a god deform a human being, is god deformed?

And really why does god kill fetuses all the time?

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Why is there suffering?

We cannot fully fathom God. We are mere mortals.
God Himself said: "My thoughts are not your thoughts, My ways are not your ways."



We can only humbly accept His will, whatever they may be. To trust in Him. And the more to cling to faith in times of turmoil.
Easier said than done, but perhaps that is the test - us, being molded and tempered - that we may come out stronger and more to what He wants us to be.

The movie Courageous briefly touched bereavement. A couple lost their little girl to an accident.
The father didn't dwell much on what he'd lost - but what he'd been given. He thanked God for the time he'd had with his little girl.

The Christian farmer who'd lost all his nine children and his pregnant wife in a fire had spoken through his relative that the tragedy did not make him lose faith - but rather, he clings all the more to God for comfort. That was a big news when that tragedy happened. This man had lost everyone he loves. Just to imagine how noisy that household must've been with all those children - and suddenly he had none. The quiet. I was putting myself in his shoes - the sudden silence.
It was a time when my husband and I were going through rough financial times - we were about to lose our shirt, and we were just starting to come back to faith (but not born again yet). We were both crying when we read the news about this man because we were so humbled.

When you humbly surrender all to God, it becomes bearable.

Those are lame excuses for a god that is cruel and petty. You can be humbled but I on the other hand didnt fall for such stories made up to cover for a god that creates children in the womb that will be stillborn or die because of a hear defect.

 

[chromium]

Yes, but it is also clearly stated that sowing two kinds of crops in the same field is a sin. Much of what is interpreted in the Bible as homosexuality is actually about idolatry, and a lot of it, particularly my reference to Leviticus, is the result of questionable translations.

Yeah i saw a field the other day that had corn and beans growing side by side and wondered how come the westboro and DP nuts aren't out there with "god hates farmers" signs and why isn't there a ballot petition circulating to ban farmers from marriage.

 

[tosca1]

I'm not going to dig through that thread. Please give me a quote in which Jesus addresses homosexuality.

Making homosexuals feel bad about being gay is inconsistent with the central message of Christianity. I was taught that being helpful and kind was the important part. I've fallen short sometimes, but I do try not to throw stones.

The Apostles were especially chosen by God/Jesus to witness.
All the teachings of the Apostles came from God/Jesus, (they were given the same authority to continue His work on earth after the Resurrection),
hence all the teachings from the Apostles should be seen as Jesus/God quotes.

The Authority of the Teaching of the Apostles, Especially Paul

A. The Source of Jesus' Teaching

Jesus received His teachings from God.

Hebrews 1:1,2 - Before Jesus came to earth, God spoke through Old Testament prophets, but now God speaks through His Son.

John 12:49,50 - Jesus spoke exactly what the Father commanded to be spoken.

[John 7:16; 8:28; Acts 3:20-23; 10:38; Luke 4:1,14,17-21]

B. The Source of the Apostles' Teaching

Their teachings were also from God, given them through the Holy Spirit.

John 14:26; 16:13 - Jesus promised the apostles that the Holy Spirit would come and teach them all things, guide them into all truth, and remind them of Jesus' teachings.

Matthew 10:19,20 - When they taught, they were not teaching from themselves, but the Spirit of the Father spoke through them.

[2 Timothy 3:16,17; Acts 1:5,8; 2:1-4,33; Matthew 28:18-20; 2 Peter 3:2; Revelation 1:1]

So the apostles' teachings came from the same source as did Jesus' teaching. All of them spoke the will of God as revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. The apostles' teaching was as accurate and as authoritative as was Jesus' teaching. All spoke with the infallible authority of God.

If this is not so, then in fact we do not even really know what Jesus Himself taught, since He never wrote any of the Bible. All we have are records which apostles and prophets wrote of what He said and did. If we accept what they record of Jesus' teachings, why not accept the other teaching that the Spirit guided them to write?
MORE....

Authority of Apostle's Teaching, Especially Paul

 

[tosca1]

I will post a quote since you seem incapable.

1 Corinthians 6:9 have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,

The quote hasn't changed since the first time you were wrong. nothing about homosexuality

Sodomy is defined as any sexual act that is considered unnatural. Sex between same gender is described as unnatural in the Bible.

The word is derived from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in chapters 18 and 19 of the Book of Genesis in the Bible.

The Book of Genesis (chapters 18-20) tells how God wished to destroy the sinful cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Two angels (literally "messengers") are invited by Lot to take refuge with his family for the night. The men of Sodom surrounded Lot's house and demanded that he bring the messengers out, so that they can "know" them. Lot protests that the "messengers" are his guests, and offers them his virgin daughters instead, but the Sodomites threaten to "do worse" with Lot than with his guests; whereupon the angels strike the Sodomites blind, "so that they wearied themselves to find the door." (Genesis 19:4-11, KJV)
.

Sodomy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nothing in Romans one says anything about homosexuality. Post the language the exact phrase you extrapolate this from

Homosexual act is listed among the sins against God in the New Testament. Since the Apostles were given the authority to witness and continue the works of Christ, their word is considered as if Jesus Himself had spoken.

 

[tosca1]

I think you hit the nail on the head with these two points.

1) It's nobody's else's business what someone's sexual orientation is.

It may not be our business to tell you personally what you shouldn't do....but that is not the same as stating publicly that homosexuality is a sin.

2) There is no list of sin rankings, meaning no, homosexuality is not worse of a sin than your sins.

:roll:

That is your view. But then again, are you a Christian? You haven't even read the whole Book , otherwise you wouldn't be asking about this.

I guess that settles it. Christians should just mind their own business.

More like, if one is going to critique the Bible, non-believers should stick to what they know, AND UNDERSTAND.

Should black people apologize for being black? Homosexuality is a natural occurrence. We can see this regularly in the animal kingdom.

Why do you ask that? Is there something wrong about being black? Homosexual act is a moral issue.
Is being black a moral issue? Do you consider being black to be offensive?

You may compare and see yourself equal to the rest of the animal kingdom - Christians don't.

 

[tosca1]

I find humor with people who have problems with "sins," of other people's that differ from their own "sins."

When Jesus said, "He who is without sin cast the first stone," he might as well have said, "Mattress sale at McCurdy's this Labor Day weekend." :roll:

WRONG.

"Casting the stone" during Jesus' time is a form of penalty or punishment, after someone has been found guilty of a crime or breaking the law. In His case, it was the stoning of an adulteress.
ie, STONING, which is still practiced today in some Islamic countries.

Repeating what is clearly stated in the Bible - that an act is a sin - is not judging an individual, after all that's what Christians are commissioned to do - to SPREAD THE WORD.

We do not give verdicts as to whom is guilty, and we certainly do not mete out punishments.

It is God alone who will judge an individual, and perhaps He may consider other things (good deeds, motives, intent, etc..,) when He gives his judgement. Only God knows what's in our hearts.

 

[gendolookin]

There is not much of a point in arguing this topic. The believers will stick to their guns, and the others will try to convince them otherwise, to no avail.

The problem I have with debating these things is the believers quote the bible as proof that the bible is truth. This is the most basic mistake in regards to prividing proof of somethings truthfulness.

If we use the bible to prove that Paul was speaking the truth, we have instantly made the argument untrustworthy.

I also have a hard time trusting the many bibles, because they can't even agree on what Jesus' name was. If we can't even figure out the true name of the central figure in the story, how on earth can we trust any other sentence?

I find the bible interesting. I see a lot of value in christianity. It has motivated many people to do lots of good things, and this I can appreciate. But using it to judge others is problematic. As I understand it, Constantine was the one that put the council together that created waht we know of as The Bible. I'm not sure he is the most credible source. Seeing as he was pretty alright with murder and destruction as long as it served his ends.

There is truth to be found in the bible. But it ain't about Gays. The truth is in the words about the spirit, and learning to know oneself in order to become closer to the spiritual world. Not in judging gays, and other ways of life. It is a shame really.