• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

If We Are Born Sinners, Then Why Can't We Be Born Gay?

Geoist

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
18,123
Reaction score
9,357
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
Seriously, I don't think Evangelicals have thought through their anti-gay arguments. From their perspective, we are all born into sin. If they really believe that, and really believe homosexuality is a sin, then why is it so ridiculous to believe that someone can be born gay?
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
21,374
Reaction score
27,502
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
It comes down to them picking what sin is ok and what sin should be legislated against. They'll sit there with a life chock full of sin and cast condemnation on gays because they believe that sin is "ickier" than theirs. It has nothing to do with logic, just hate.
 

Rainman05

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Messages
10,032
Reaction score
4,964
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Seriously, I don't think Evangelicals have thought through their anti-gay arguments. From their perspective, we are all born into sin. If they really believe that, and really believe homosexuality is a sin, then why is it so ridiculous to believe that someone can be born gay?
The sin we are born into is the Original Sin... not the "gay sin".

You can't cross-correlate sins. Lying is a sin and you can't replace it with adultery or cursing.

But what do I know. I'm not an evangelical and I am highly critical of televangelists and what naught. It doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it. Hatin' random people for things they can't change is rather silly.
 

Geoist

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
18,123
Reaction score
9,357
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
The sin we are born into is the Original Sin... not the "gay sin".
Original Sin refers to man's natural tendency to sin. Why can't each man have a tendency towards particular sins?


But what do I know. I'm not an evangelical and I am highly critical of televangelists and what naught. It doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it. Hatin' random people for things they can't change is rather silly.
On that, I agree.
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
21,374
Reaction score
27,502
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The sin we are born into is the Original Sin... not the "gay sin".

You can't cross-correlate sins. Lying is a sin and you can't replace it with adultery or cursing.

But what do I know. I'm not an evangelical and I am highly critical of televangelists and what naught. It doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it. Hatin' random people for things they can't change is rather silly.
Sin is sin. You don't get to pick which sins are worse than others. So looking lustfully at a woman is just as much of a sin as homosexuality is.
 

FreedomFromAll

Post Political parties
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 16, 2011
Messages
16,041
Reaction score
4,426
Location
New Mexico USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Private
Seriously, I don't think Evangelicals have thought through their anti-gay arguments. From their perspective, we are all born into sin. If they really believe that, and really believe homosexuality is a sin, then why is it so ridiculous to believe that someone can be born gay?
Evangelicals are against homosexuality, so if homosexuals say they are born that way then Evangelicals are against it and must claim the opposite, that they are not born that way.

ALso since they believe homosexuality is a sin then it must have been mans free will that led to that sin. If a homosexual was born that way then it wasnt a sin it was a act of god. Then their heads explode.
 

tacomancer

Christian Capitalist Social Democrat
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
42,417
Reaction score
22,991
Location
Akron
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
It comes down to them picking what sin is ok and what sin should be legislated against. They'll sit there with a life chock full of sin and cast condemnation on gays because they believe that sin is "ickier" than theirs. It has nothing to do with logic, just hate.
This is precisely it! Who here hasn't told a lie or failed to love their neighbor?
 

WCH

Believer
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
30,944
Reaction score
9,014
Location
The Lone Star State.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
This is precisely it! Who here hasn't told a lie or failed to love their neighbor?
You would have to believe that sin is inherited (generally from the sins of Adam and Eve) which I consider a false doctrine.

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself." (Ezekiel 18:20)

"Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3)
 

tosca1

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
21,959
Reaction score
2,810
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Original Sin refers to man's natural tendency to sin. Why can't each man have a tendency towards particular sins?
If you're born to sin - you do have the tendency to sin. No matter what particular sin you'd tend to want to foster.

One can have the tendency to commit rape, thus we have serial rapists. One can have to the tendency to commit murder, thus we have serial murderers.
Some have the tendency to resolve matters or assert themselves through violence, thus we see assaults. Some have the tendency to want to have sex with anyone at every opportune time, thus we have fornicators and adulterers. Some have the tendency to have addictions. Some have the tendency to crave for material things.

Some have the tendency for sex with the same gender. Or to have sex with very young children. Or with animals. Or with a corpse. Or any other deviations one could think of.

It is a matter of self-discipline and control. To fight temptation. It is hard. Jesus Himself had said that - only few can walk the narrow road.

All of us - including Christians - will be battling temptation inside us for the rest of our lives. Having Jesus in our hearts, with the sincere desire to do what is righteous in the eyes of God, is what gives us the armor and the strength.
That's why you cling to Him, and never distance yourself from Him.....that's why having a personal relationship with Christ/God is so important. It is the key to our spiritual survival.
 
Last edited:

VanceMack

MSG Benavides TAB
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
73,887
Reaction score
31,092
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Always fun watching people try to manipulate religious belief to fit their arguments...but...Sure...

As the foundation of 'sin' is agency...the ability to CHOOSE right or wrong behaviors then yes...people are born with agency and the ability to commit sinful acts, and YES , they are born with agency and are free to engage in homosexual acts and otherwise act on deviant sexual tendencies which may be natural to them.
 

tosca1

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
21,959
Reaction score
2,810
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
rainman05
But what do I know. I'm not an evangelical and I am highly critical of televangelists and what naught. It doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it. Hatin' random people for things they can't change is rather silly.

geoist
On that, I agree.
That's like saying....

If I say that pedophilia is a sin - that means that I hate the person committing that sin!

So we shouldn't say if anything anyone is doing is wrong....or is a sin....or is a crime....otherwise, you'd be a hater of someone who cannot change. Does that make any sense at all?

Mis-use of the word "hate" is silly. And irresponsible.
And manipulative. It is a systematic technique being used this days to intimidate anyone from speaking and expressing themselves.....a way to quell the opposition. In this case, the anti-gay marriage views.

Geoist, and rainman05, I think you both haven't really thought through your arguments.
 
Last edited:

Smeagol

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
4,147
Reaction score
1,694
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Seriously, I don't think Evangelicals have thought through their anti-gay arguments. From their perspective, we are all born into sin. If they really believe that, and really believe homosexuality is a sin, then why is it so ridiculous to believe that someone can be born gay?
Evangelicals don't believe its THEIR anti-gay argument.

Some people are also born with a short tempter, tendency to drink, strong hetero libido that needs to be controlled especially before marriage, are greedy or in other ways self-centered. Everybody has something they struggle with and I'm the main one. The difference with homosexually is many redefine what the Bible says is sin as good and if anyone happens to actually believe the Bible is God's word and is true, that person hates them and then in some cases proceed to try in drive them into poverty by making sure they lose their ability to earn an income.
 
Last edited:

tosca1

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
21,959
Reaction score
2,810
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Seriously, I don't think Evangelicals have thought through their anti-gay arguments. From their perspective, we are all born into sin. If they really believe that, and really believe homosexuality is a sin, then why is it so ridiculous to believe that someone can be born gay?
If genetics prove that we all indeed have the genes that make us prone to do things......then that means we're born into it.
What should be the best remedy you propose?

Abort anyone with the genes that makes them gay....or killers.....or pedophiles.....

Or,

Do away with all laws. Make everything acceptable under the sun?
 

Smeagol

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
4,147
Reaction score
1,694
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
It comes down to them picking what sin is ok and what sin should be legislated against. They'll sit there with a life chock full of sin and cast condemnation on gays because they believe that sin is "ickier" than theirs. It has nothing to do with logic, just hate.
I suspect you might be accurate in some cases especially if you're talking about groups like Westboro Baptist. However, I suspect in the majority of cases you might be talking about things having to do with dispensation eras that were only applicable during specific times in history such as ordinances relating to the ancient Hebrew priesthood that currently does no exist, rules regarding kosher diet I think were placed that so that Jesus would be a completely I contaminated sin offering but once he was sacrificed it ended as indicated in acts 10:13, etc. etc. Unless you are trying to understand and learn the Bible, you won't understand any of that and simply see it as a collection of Confucious type stand alone one liners that are then vunerable to misinterpretation.
 

tacomancer

Christian Capitalist Social Democrat
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
42,417
Reaction score
22,991
Location
Akron
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
You would have to believe that sin is inherited (generally from the sins of Adam and Eve) which I consider a false doctrine.

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself." (Ezekiel 18:20)

"Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3)
Yet some people are born without the structures in their brain necessary for empathy or at least with a predisposition to it ...

That's reality, dude.

The simple fact is that the brain is a machine that generates consciousness. Like any machine, it can be tuned in different ways, have different parts that produce different tolerances and running conditions and like a machine it can totally break down and produce wild results. Of course, its a wild complex machine that expresses its drives in the real world in a feedback loop which creates any number of possible expressions (in other words, nature vs nurture). The point is, some people are born with schizophrenia, some people are born so well adapted to life's problems that they never have any significant stress. Some people prefer the color blue, some people prefer the color red. Some people prefer men, some prefer women, there's one chick in Germany that is in love with Berlin wall even. Its just how people are.
 
Last edited:

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
21,374
Reaction score
27,502
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I suspect you might be accurate in some cases especially if you're talking about groups like Westboro Baptist. However, I suspect in the majority of cases you might be talking about things having to do with dispensation eras that were only applicable during specific times in history such as ordinances relating to the ancient Hebrew priesthood that currently does no exist, rules regarding kosher diet I think were placed that so that Jesus would be a completely I contaminated sin offering but once he was sacrificed it ended as indicated in acts 10:13, etc. etc. Unless you are trying to understand and learn the Bible, you won't understand any of that and simply see it as a collection of Confucious type stand alone one liners that are then vunerable to misinterpretation.
No, I definitely understand the "Oh, we like to pick and choose what things we like out of the old testament" mentality, but I'm not even talking about that right now. In christianity, nearly everything is a sin, even thought crimes. We are all guilty of at least a few of these thought crimes every single day, no matter how pure of a life we lead.
 

lolabird

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
642
Reaction score
114
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
Evangelicals are against homosexuality, so if homosexuals say they are born that way then Evangelicals are against it and must claim the opposite, that they are not born that way.

ALso since they believe homosexuality is a sin then it must have been mans free will that led to that sin. If a homosexual was born that way then it wasnt a sin it was a act of god. Then their heads explode.
How would you explain Psalms 139?
 

paddymcdougall

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
3,032
Reaction score
1,687
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Are people still disputing that sexual orientation is innate, not learned? Huh.

Of course, some people are on a spectrum and can go either way. But it's still innate.
 

Dittohead not!

master political analyst
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
51,127
Reaction score
33,277
Location
The Golden State
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Are people still disputing that sexual orientation is innate, not learned? Huh.
Yes, and that global warming is real, and that evolution is the way life came to be as it is, and that our own government wasn't behind the WTC attack, and that Obama wasn't really born in Kenya, and all sorts of silly things.
 

Oftencold

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Messages
5,044
Reaction score
2,202
Location
A small village in Alaska
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Wow. That question required almost two seconds of thought.

Being born a sinner doesn't make one a thief or liar. Lying and stealing might be the sort of sinful nature one expresses, just as sexual debauchery can be.
 

paddymcdougall

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
3,032
Reaction score
1,687
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Wow. That question required almost two seconds of thought.

Being born a sinner doesn't make one a thief or liar. Lying and stealing might be the sort of sinful nature one expresses, just as sexual debauchery can be.
But being lesbian or gay isn't sexual debauchery.

both straights and gays can get into sexual debauchery

And is there anything wrong with sexual debauchery? what exactly constitutes that?
 

Medusa

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 9, 2011
Messages
39,862
Reaction score
7,845
Location
Turkey
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
no humans arent born in sin
 
Top Bottom