IDF senior officer killed in ambush by Lebanese Army sniper

[Mira]

Are you serious? Seriously?

This was not a "super high tension" anything, it was routine maintenance work. These officers were well behind the border (which is to be expected, why would a colonel be at the scene supervising a tree cutting) and whatever they were doing at the picnic bench is, frankly, totally irrelevant.

Did you ever think of this - they were sitting at the bench because THERE WERE NO SHOTS FIRED UNTIL SNIPERS TOOK THEM OUT. Your working theory of how things unfolded cannot remotely be supported by the behaviour of those on the ground. You only need to ask "WTF was an army commander doing sitting on a picnic bench right in the middle of super high border tension" because your idea of how things unfolded is so absurd that it seems completely disconnected to see where these officers were shot.

Cause it is impossible to sustain any assertion that this was to "defend the border" when you see this information, so it seems to have created this dissonance that makes you ask the question you did.

A better question would be "how must things have unfolded for two seasoned officers to be shot as sitting ducks well behind the front lines sitting at an exposed picnic bench".

I know the answer. So do many people here. You know the answer too, if you just admit it to yourself.

CJ 20, I don't know where you live, but have you actually been to the border between Lebanon and Israel ?

If you have, you would know how quickly things get super tense in that area. If the Israeli commander didn't know that things could escalate very quickly especially that they had asked for approval and the UNIFIL had told them to postpone, it was clear that things might get out of hand.

All along I didn't justify the shooting, all along I said that the Lebanese were wrong in opening fire a,d yet, you have ignored that.

The actual line of events is still being discussed, but you seem to have taken a decision as to when exactly the commander was shot.

 

[donsutherland1]

IMO, an all-out war would not have served Israel's interests. Clearly, the LAF was wrong in what it did. Its actions were unjustified and amounted to an act of aggression. However, I don't believe it rose to the level that would have justified a war. I do worry that down the road another military operation might be required to address the growing threat posed by Hezbollah. I also have some concern that the LAF and Hezbollah are becoming more integrated and, toward that end, strongly support the Members of Congress who put a hold on the $100 million in military assistance to the LAF.

 

[CJ 2.0]

This must be by far the most arrogant and inhuman statement that I have read on this thread .

you can protest as much as you want. But you should be grateful. The Israelis acted with a restrint that Lebanon was not entitled to and, given the nature of this act, should not have reasonably expected.

yes I should be grateful that Israel only killed 4 Lebanese including a civilian against one Israeli military.

Holy cow !!!!

Immensely grateful. Israel was justified in launching an all out offensive against the Lebanese military across the entire border, and decapitating it's command infrastructure.

Instead, there were are few localized dead, including a Hezbollah reporter that was embedded with the troops. And yes, it is sad that these people died. Everyone has a stroy and not everyone wanted to be there or supported this decision, but it is not Israel's job to think of their or your feelings. It is Israel's job to protect iself when it is attacked by an enemy state.

Lebanon needs to just back off. It is all Lebanon has had to do for a long time. The sooner you learn that lesson, the better.

Israel gave you a free pass on this one, where you should not have received one. As ungrateful as you wish to be, your country got very, very lucky, and shouild thank its lucky starts that Israel elected to demonstrate restraint that was not deserved.

But I guess you can keep pretendign Israel was in the wrong instead of recognizing what happened. Rightous anger really helps maintain that nationalist fervour that helps replace the "respect" and self-esteem that comes through actual national accomplishments.

 

[CJ 2.0]

IMO, an all-out war would not have served Israel's interests. Clearly, the LAF was wrong in what it did. Its actions were unjustified and amounted to an act of aggression. However, I don't believe it rose to the level that would have justified a war. I do worry that down the road another military operation might be required to address the growing threat posed by Hezbollah. I also have some concern that the LAF and Hezbollah are becoming more integrated and, toward that end, strongly support the Members of Congress who put a hold on the $100 million in military assistance to the LAF.

For the record, I agree with respect to what should have been done, though I don't agree that this would not have justified a war. It certainly would not have justified an all out war like in 2006, but a much more intense reprisal against Lebanese infrastructure, perhaps targeting weapons depots where all of those aid weapons were stored, would have been perfectly justified.

 

[Mira]

you can protest as much as you want. But you should be grateful. The Israelis acted with a restrint that Lebanon was not entitled to and, given the nature of this act, should not have reasonably expected.



Immensely grateful. Israel was justified in launching an all out offensive against the Lebanese military across the entire border, and decapitating it's command infrastructure.

Instead, there were are few localized dead, including a Hezbollah reporter that was embedded with the troops. And yes, it is sad that these people died. Everyone has a stroy and not everyone wanted to be there or supported this decision, but it is not Israel's job to think of their or your feelings. It is Israel's job to protect iself when it is attacked by an enemy state.

Lebanon needs to just back off. It is all Lebanon has had to do for a long time. The sooner you learn that lesson, the better.

Israel gave you a free pass on this one, where you should not have received one. As ungrateful as you wish to be, your country got very, very lucky, and shouild thank its lucky starts that Israel elected to demonstrate restraint that was not deserved.

But I guess you can keep pretendign Israel was in the wrong instead of recognizing what happened. Rightous anger really helps maintain that nationalist fervour that helps replace the "respect" and self-esteem that comes through actual national accomplishments.

I think if I replied, I'd be talking to a wall.
How sad that people think the way you do .

 

[alexa]

I think if I replied, I'd be talking to a wall.
How sad that people think the way you do .

Sadly Mira it does not bode well for peace in the ME ever. One mistake, or one terrorist attack and war will be ignited again and again and Israel's opponents put back to the Stone age. You heard it here first.

 

[CJ 2.0]

I think if I replied, I'd be talking to a wall.
How sad that people think the way you do .

trust me, I know the feeling. (see the hundreds of posts above with respect to this incident you continue to characterize, using whatever gymanstics you can, that this was not a provoked attack and that Israel never crossed a border)

But you need to understand that this was an unprovoked, unanticipated act of war by lebanon against Israel. that Israel did not react with full force was something within its sole discretion, which it exercised. That you don't appreciate this fact is problematic, because it indicates that Lebanese are not interested in affecting the change necessary to ensure that this or something similar does not happen again - because Israel would have been justified in handing Lebanon it's *** in a hat. If Lebanon keeps up this sort of conduct, a day will come, much like in 2006, when all of these unprovoked atatcks will come back to bite you.

 

[CJ 2.0]

Sadly Mira it does not bode well for peace in the ME ever. One mistake, or one terrorist attack and war will be ignited again and again and Israel's opponents put back to the Stone age. You heard it here first.

Prettyy easy solution to that, particularly as this event was not a mistake.

The solution: Don't fire on Israelis. Don't try to attack Israel. Don't pursue the destruction of Israel.

If that path is followed, everything will be fine.

Lebanon's call.

 

[TitusAndronicus]

I believe I've found the exact location of the incident on a satellite map.

Incident Map

Note how the locations compare with the photos from this site.

Picture 9: This location is identifiable from the tree lined drive at the top of the picture as well as the curve of the drive as it approaches the road.

Picture 11: If you use the Google Earth button on the top right, then zoom in on the Lebanese/UN position until you are at ground level, you can pan over and see the Israeli terrain appears to match this photo. Note the tree in question is in front of the second hill in the distance.

Picture 12: Note that the Lebanese fence has a slight concave curve facing the Israeli side, as can be seen in the satellite photo.

Pictures 11 and 16: You can see the Israeli road is at approximately a 30 degree angle with the Lebanese road, as seen in the satellite photo.

I am not positive about the Israeli commanders' location, but I made an educated guess based on the picnic table photo, the angles of the roads, and the steep terrain.

This is where the two commanders were shot at:

ynet

And if you look at the satellite map of the location of the Blue line, it does not appear to be exact relative to the Lebanese road (probably due to the use of different map projections and scales), but assuming the basic shape is correct, the Blue Line closely parallels the Lebanese fence, not the Israeli fence in this location. In many locations it follows the Israeli fence or both fences where they are close, but in this location, it follows the Lebanese fence alone.

Assuming my inferences are correct, I don't know how the Lebanese could have not known where the border was. It is their job to know, and in this location, it is very close to their own border. According to the sources I've read, in order to avoid confusion, the Israelis informed UNIFIL who informed the Lebanese hours ahead of their planned tree trimming. That the Lebanese objected to this probably indicates obstructionism, as I don't believe they have such a level of incompetence as to knowledge of the border (they've had 10 years to learn and had three hours to analyze the situation).

In my opinion, one of the following circumstances took place.

1. A Lebanese officer with sympathies with Hezbollah gave the order intentionally.

2. A Lebanese officer away from the scene made a judgment based on false information.

 

[ido_]

Sadly Mira it does not bode well for peace in the ME ever. One mistake, or one terrorist attack and war will be ignited again and again and Israel's opponents put back to the Stone age. You heard it here first.

Aiming to the highest ranking officer's head is hardly a mistake and yet Lebanon was not set back to the Stone Age.
Jordan wasn't set back to the Stone age when a Jordanian border guard murdered 7 schoolgirls in 1997.
Lebanon wasn't set back to the Stone age when Hezballa murdered 3 IDF soldiers and kidnapped their bodies in 2000.
Numerous suicide bomber attacks didn't make Israel engage into a military operation inside the PA's territory in 2000-2001.
Gaza wasn't set back to the Stone age after the first Kassam rocket fell on Sderot (and not after the 2nd, 3rd or 100th for that matter).
Egypt wasn't set back to the Stone age last week after rockets fell on Eilat.

Israel has always shown restraint, Arabs always inturpreted it as weekness.

Your attempt to make Israel look like warmonger country with a short fuse is baseless.

 

[Apocalypse]

Aiming to the highest ranking officer's head is hardly a mistake and yet Lebanon was not set back to the Stone Age.
Jordan wasn't set back to the Stone age when a Jordanian border guard murdered 7 schoolgirls in 1997.
Lebanon wasn't set back to the Stone age when Hezballa murdered 3 IDF soldiers and kidnapped their bodies in 2000.
Numerous suicide bomber attacks didn't make Israel engage into a military operation inside the PA's territory in 2000-2001.
Gaza wasn't set back to the Stone age after the first Kassam rocket fell on Sderot (and not after the 2nd, 3rd or 100th for that matter).
Egypt wasn't set back to the Stone age last week after rockets fell on Eilat.

Israel has always shown restraint, Arabs always inturpreted it as weekness.

Your attempt to make Israel look like warmonger country with a short fuse is baseless.

I agree with your conclusive point Ido, but I think that some of the analogies are not good.

The Jordanian border guard murdering the 7 school girls in March 97' was acting on his own as a lone terrorist, King Hussein didn't back his actions at the time and has even expressed outrage.
The Hezbollah attack in 2000 was also not backed by the Lebanese state as far as I can recall.
And the rockets on Eilat and Aqaba coming from Sinai were not approved by Egypt, and it still is on a hunt for the terrorists who have launched it.

In this case the aggressive action is actually defended by the Lebanese state, and the unprovoked ambush itself came at the order of a high ranking officer in the Lebanese army, hence the responsibility for the action and its consequences lies on Lebanon.

 

[RyrineaHaruno]

Ido_ I ask this simple question did they know that he was a high ranking officer? However I find this incident still a waste of lives no one should out live their children. I doubt he would use a salute thing, since I would say that would be a big bull eyes for the sniper to say shoot at me. I'd also agree that the Lebanese probably made made a judgment on misinformation, or someone whit sympathy to Hezbollah mad the call.

 

[ido_]

I agree with your conclusive point Ido, but I think that some of the analogies are not good.

The Jordanian border guard murdering the 7 school girls in March 97' was acting on his own as a lone terrorist, King Hussein didn't back his actions at the time and has even expressed outrage.
The Hezbollah attack in 2000 was also not backed by the Lebanese state as far as I can recall.
And the rockets on Eilat and Aqaba coming from Sinai were not approved by Egypt, and it still is on a hunt for the terrorists who have launched it.

In this case the aggressive action is actually defended by the Lebanese state, and the unprovoked ambush itself came at the order of a high ranking officer in the Lebanese army, hence the responsibility for the action and its consequences lies on Lebanon.

Yes, this action is much more serious as it is Lebanon as a country attacked Israel, not an organization that acts from Lebanon, nevertheless, alexa claims that "one mistake" or "one terrorist act" will lead Israel to war, this is clearly false. Israel goes to war only when certian borders are crossed on 2006 it was the second time in 6 years that Hezballah kiddnapped Israeli soldiers in a supprise attack, last year it was 2 weeks of ongoing rocket fire that lead Israel to its war in Gaza.

 

[ido_]

Ido_ I ask this simple question did they know that he was a high ranking officer? However I find this incident still a waste of lives no one should out live their children. I doubt he would use a salute thing, since I would say that would be a big bull eyes for the sniper to say shoot at me. I'd also agree that the Lebanese probably made made a judgment on misinformation, or someone whit sympathy to Hezbollah mad the call.

Officers wear their rank on thier uniform

If he sniped the officer in the head he could easily see his rank.

 

[Laila]

Sadly Mira it does not bode well for peace in the ME ever. One mistake, or one terrorist attack and war will be ignited again and again and Israel's opponents put back to the Stone age. You heard it here first.

Don't be stupid enough to shoot at a member of a Armed forces more powerful than you then. Seems simple to me.
If Lebanon doesn't want war, control its Army.

 

[justabubba]

Don't be stupid enough to shoot at a member of a Armed forces more powerful than you then. Seems simple to me.
If Lebanon doesn't want war, control its Army.

thank you for the excellently presented rationale explaining why it is wise government policy for iran to pursue development of nuclear weapons to achieve military parity with an aggressive neighbor

 

[donsutherland1]

UNIFIL concluded in its report that the IDF never crossed into Lebanon during an incident in which Lebanese forces opened fire on IDF officers. From today's edition of The Jerusalem Post:

UNIFIL released its findings Wednesday of its investigation into the shooting incident earlier this month between the IDF and Lebanese Armed Forces (LAF) along the northern border which ended in the death of IDF reserve battalion commander Lt.-Col. Dov Harari.

UNIFIL said Wednesday that the findings of the investigation confirmed the peace keeping forces' preliminary conclusion that the Israeli forces did not cross the Blue Line international border as the Lebanese had claimed to justify their decision to open fire at Harari and soldiers from his battalion.

UNIFIL releases findings of IDF-Lebanon border clash

 

[Apocalypse]

UNIFIL concluded in its report that the IDF never crossed into Lebanon during an incident in which Lebanese forces opened fire on IDF officers. From today's edition of The Jerusalem Post:



UNIFIL releases findings of IDF-Lebanon border clash

And what actions would be taken against Lebanon as a result of the recognition that they've killed a senior IDF officer unprovoked and injured another?
Or is it simply implying that there is no punishment for those kind of things?

 

[Mira]

And what actions would be taken against Lebanon as a result of the recognition that they've killed a senior IDF officer unprovoked and injured another?
Or is it simply implying that there is no punishment for those kind of things?

That confirms my argument.

How long did it take the UNIFIL to investigate and to determine that the tree was not on the Lebanese side ?

So this is a confirmation that the Lebanese mistakenly accused the Israelis of trespassing. They thought the tree was on their side, I could swear too that the tree was on our side.
The blue line is not clear at all, that's exactly why the UNIFIL needed to investigate. The Israelis should have waited.

The shooting of the commander was NOT justified in ANY case.

What actions ? 3 Lebanese soldiers and one civilian were killed, what else do you want ? more blood ?

 

[spud_meister]

And what actions would be taken against Lebanon as a result of the recognition that they've killed a senior IDF officer unprovoked and injured another?
Or is it simply implying that there is no punishment for those kind of things?

personally, i think some artists should boycott Lebanon.

 

[alexa]

That confirms my argument.

How long did it take the UNIFIL to investigate and to determine that the tree was not on the Lebanese side ?

So this is a confirmation that the Lebanese mistakenly accused the Israelis of trespassing. They thought the tree was on their side, I could swear too that the tree was on our side.
The blue line is not clear at all, that's exactly why the UNIFIL needed to investigate. The Israelis should have waited.

The shooting of the commander was NOT justified in ANY case.

What actions ? 3 Lebanese soldiers and one civilian were killed, what else do you want ? more blood ?

Uri Avnery talks about this as part of an article

During the last few days he has achieved the impossible: turning the Lebanese army, too, into an enemy.

To appreciate the magnitude of this achievement, one has to remember that only four years ago, Israel practically issued an ultimatum demanding that the Lebanese army be deployed on the border with Israel. It was one of Israel’s conditions for ending Lebanon War II. Only the Lebanese army, the master strategists in Jerusalem decreed, could ensure quiet on the border. They treated the UN force, UNIFIL, with thinly veiled contempt.

This week, the Lebanese army opened fire on Israeli troops, killing a battalion commander. How could this happen? In several places there are tiny enclaves between the Israeli border fence and the recognized international border. As far as sovereignty is concerned, these enclaves belong to Israel. The land itself, however, is worked by Lebanese villagers. The Israeli army decided to “trim” the trees in these areas in order to facilitate observation.

The Lebanese announced in advance that they were opposed. UNIFIL asked Israel to wait for the return of its commander from abroad, so as to enable him to mediate. The Israeli army refused to wait and sent a bulldozer. When the arm of the monster reached over the fence, and after warning shouts, the Lebanese soldiers opened fire.

Would a normal person have endangered his relations with the Lebanese army for some branches of a tree

Uri Avnery's weekly english article

Hopefully both sides can put this needless loss of life behind them and avoid similar in the future.

 

[ido_]

Hopefully both sides can put this needless loss of life behind them and avoid similar in the future.

Its really easy to avoid, Lebanise should not murder Israelies who are sitting on a bench in Israel.

 

[alexa]

Its really easy to avoid, Lebanise should not murder Israelies who are sitting on a bench in Israel.

Does it not take two to tango and two to make friends. If Israel had waited, there also would not have been loss of life.

 

[ido_]

Does it not take two to tango and two to make friends. If Israel had waited, there also would not have been loss of life.

In this case no. it takes only one person to open fire in order to tango. cutting down a tree one meter behind the fence is no reason to kill someone not on lebanise soil and most definitely not on Israeli soil.
I wonder alexa, what would your reaction be if an Israeli soldier shot dead a Lebanise shepherd who crossed the border just for crossing it. I bet all my money that "oh the border is disputable" and "it takes two to tango" would not be included.

 

[spud_meister]

Does it not take two to tango and two to make friends. If Israel had waited, there also would not have been loss of life.

if Lebanon had armed their soldiers with bananas, there also would not have been loss of life, fact is, Israel had every right to do what they did, when they did, and what ifs aren't gonna change that.