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Ian McCormack - an Atheist - Dead on Morgue Slab - Goes to Hell . . .

afr0byte said:
The point is that you shouldn't claim it as fact unless you can prove it, or there's someway to prove it.
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You shouldn't claim that all these near-death experiences are hallucinations, either. Unless you can prove it!
That's the whole point of the argument right now.

Flat out rejection of near-death experiences are mostly motivated by rejection of the supernatural. You're automatically closing your mind to it just because of the hint of the supernatural.
 
tosca1 said:
If that's the case, then everyone should have similar experiences - everyone who died and got resuscitated ought to have had the same experience. Either everyone have had "hallucinations" of lights, or no one should have had that experience.
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No, certainly not. We don't all get the same illnesses, but we're mostly susceptible to most of the same illnesses, because our bodies are largely similar. It's not an all or nothing thing. People tripping on acid don't report the exact same experiences, but they're still all hallucinating.

Pure assumption on your part.
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Well, yeah, that's why I said probably. We're often affected by things we've heard about before.
 
afr0byte said:
People tripping on acid don't report the exact same experiences, but they're still all hallucinating.
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Of course not. They're just high. They're not dead!

We're talking about those who died and got resuscitated. I don't think there's anyone among those that were reported by the media to have been tripping on acid or any recreational drugs - otherwise that would've been indicated!
 
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tosca1 said:
You shouldn't claim that all these near-death experiences are hallucinations, either. Unless you can prove it!
That's the whole point of the argument right now.

Flat out rejection of near-death experiences are mostly motivated by rejection of the supernatural. You're automatically closing your mind to it just because of the hint of the supernatural.
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I'd be willing to accept these experiences if you came up with some kind of objective experiment to prove them. I believe it was in this thread that others mentioned that experiments have been performed, where people that claimed to have out of body experiences (floating above the bed) didn't know about objects that they'd have been able to see if they were floating above the bed.
 
tosca1 said:
Of course not. They're just high. They're not dead!

We're talking about those who died and got resuscitated.
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Yeah, but when you're dieing/close to death you could easily be getting deprived of oxygen, causing your brain to do weird things.
 
afr0byte said:
I'd be willing to accept these experiences if you came up with some kind of objective experiment to prove them. I believe it was in this thread that others mentioned that experiments have been performed, where people that claimed to have out of body experiences (floating above the bed) didn't know about objects that they'd have been able to see if they were floating above the bed.
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The media mentioned these experiences. On separate occasions, different time, and by different people.
Books have been written about some.

Like I said, this is not covered by natural or scientific laws. It cannot be proven. However, just because it cannot be proven does not necessarily mean it cannot be true. THAT's the objective truth.

BUT you're negating them, and you're claiming that they cannot all be true. So, it's you who should come up with the proof that supports your claim.

Unless you can prove your position, you don't expect us to accept your opinion as a fact. What you're doing is simply stating your own opinion. Nothing more. And we can't even call that an objective opinion....since you're basing your opinion on nothing but your own bias.
 
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tosca1 said:
The media mentioned these experiences. On separate occasions by different people.

You're negating them and you're claiming that they cannot all be true. So, it's you who should come up with the proof that supports your claim.

Unless you can prove your position, you don't expect us to accept your opinion as a fact. What you're doing is simply stating your own opinion.
Nothing more.
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The media is reporting that people claimed these things happened to them. I'm saying I don't believe it, unless they can come up with some kind of evidence, especially since we know that lack of oxygen can cause people to see weird things.
 
tosca1 said:
Like I said, this is not covered by natural or scientific laws. It cannot be proven. However, just because it cannot be proven does not necessarily means it cannot be true. THAT's the objective truth.
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Why bother trying to debate if you know you can't show it to be true?
 
afr0byte said:
Why bother trying to debate if you know you can't show it to be true?
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Why bother trying to debate if you know you can't show it to be un-true? :lol:
 
afr0byte said:
The media is reporting that people claimed these things happened to them. I'm saying I don't believe it, unless they can come up with some kind of evidence, especially since we know that lack of oxygen can cause people to see weird things.
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Similar weird things?
 
tosca1 said:
Why bother trying to debate if you know you can't show it to be un-true? :lol:
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Because it can/has been shown that biological malfunctions can cause people to see the light.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Until a person is "brain dead" they are not truly "dead." As long as the brain continues to function all sorts of effects are bound to occur. Resuscitate a person who has been "dead" for a couple of hours or more...then we'll know if there is an afterlife...maybe.
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yeah, if they can even contemplate the challenge of spelling "potato" at that point
 
There's a unicorn behind you. Yup, it's right behind you, but it's really quiet.
Oh, you turned around and it wasn't there?
Well it's an invisible unicorn.
And it's intangible.
In fact, no scientific test could ever verify it's existence.
But it's there, right behind you.

That's the false logic of believing in something just because it hasn't been disproved. If you claim something exists, the burden of proof is on you, the believer. If logic allowed for a burden of disproof, we'd have to believe in monsters, every religious deity, and magic, since I can't prove they don't exist. Should I just believe that everything exists? Nope, that's the fallacy of a burden of disproof. There is a reasonable burden of disproof, but it's to disprove the evidence for another's claims, not to disprove another's claims without evidence. There is no rational thought without a burden of proof behind every statement; you have to be able to back up what you say, or it's meaningless.

The problem with supernatural activity is not that scientists just don't examine the evidence of supernatural stuff, the problem is that they do. After almost 200 years of research, there is still no convincing evidence for any forces other than the 4 principle forces that we know of and the variations and/or interactions between them. This article, Telekinesis and Quantum Field Theory | Sean Carroll , shows a chart that proves that there is no room for a new, supernatural, force of nature. This is my proof for my statement. If you still believe that supernatural forces exist, you can disprove me.
 
Juanita said:
How would you explain a woman who was in a bad accident, was comatose in the hospital, her soul/conscienceness leaves her body--she sees herself lying on the bed, surrounded by family, goes out to the hallway, watches and listens to her son and nephew talking, wanders about for a bit, comes back into her body--eventually wakes up to see her mother and stepfather standing by the bed, only the stepfather had transitioned a couple of years before this...Explain how you think that biology played any part of this.....
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...magic?
 
Juanita said:
You will change your mind when/if it ever happens to you....... Your critical thinking skills will fly out of the window....
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So here is mine-
This wasn't during my actual wounding but rather over 2 years later when stationed at Ft. Lewis Washington, 3/60th, 2nd bde, 9th light.

Our patrol is in a damp, cold dark woods, I smell sweat, funk of my flax jacket and rotting wood- we creep ever so slowly forward, only a compass azimuth to guide us, NO landmarks, no GPS. Pointman kneels and gives the halt signal. After a security pause i creep forward to see. A small clearing, bright sun- WARM. I can smell fresh, flowers, life. For some dumbass reason i stand and walk out into the sun. It FEELS, i feel the warmth, the loosening of my muscles. my eyes close and I hear a faint tinkling. Goats come into view, I smile at the boy driving them. he wears a funny flat topped hat, fancy little vest. I smell the goats. Suddenly i feel intense pain and hear the shot. I fall. next thought is the chopper ride- not at all like the one I got with a bloody face- i feel nothing, just hear and see. next scene is a city like operating room i am above the table watching me being operated on. I see and hear my parents but they don't see me. i watch me die on the table. I want to tell my parents it is ok but I of course can't. i wake-up. i smoke a cigarette and smell of stale sweat and am shaking just a bit.

No trauma, no near death injury or drug overdose. But as vivid and intense as if it was a slightly weird real life, and I mean REAL FREAKIN' LIFE! our brains do weird crap at the damnest times. I don't think someone needs to almost die to have the brain play bizarre tricks on us and we can easily buy into them.

But it is just a trick of the mind, not a peek into the 'other side'.
 
afr0byte said:
The media is reporting that people claimed these things happened to them. I'm saying I don't believe it, unless they can come up with some kind of evidence, especially since we know that lack of oxygen can cause people to see weird things.
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How about the folks who have had OBEs (out of body experiences) or can astral project at will? They are neither dead nor near death?
 
douglas said:
There's a unicorn behind you. Yup, it's right behind you, but it's really quiet.
Oh, you turned around and it wasn't there?
Well it's an invisible unicorn.
And it's intangible.
In fact, no scientific test could ever verify it's existence.
But it's there, right behind you.

That's the false logic of believing in something just because it hasn't been disproved. If you claim something exists, the burden of proof is on you, the believer. If logic allowed for a burden of disproof, we'd have to believe in monsters, every religious deity, and magic, since I can't prove they don't exist. Should I just believe that everything exists? Nope, that's the fallacy of a burden of disproof. There is a reasonable burden of disproof, but it's to disprove the evidence for another's claims, not to disprove another's claims without evidence. There is no rational thought without a burden of proof behind every statement; you have to be able to back up what you say, or it's meaningless.

The problem with supernatural activity is not that scientists just don't examine the evidence of supernatural stuff, the problem is that they do. After almost 200 years of research, there is still no convincing evidence for any forces other than the 4 principle forces that we know of and the variations and/or interactions between them. This article, Telekinesis and Quantum Field Theory | Sean Carroll , shows a chart that proves that there is no room for a new, supernatural, force of nature. This is my proof for my statement. If you still believe that supernatural forces exist, you can disprove me.
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"Science never proves anything"--how true.....Can you see the micro waves from your microwave oven? Can you see the signal coming into your TV?
Cab you see the radio waves from your radio? Just because you cannot see something, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist...
 
notquiteright said:
So here is mine-
This wasn't during my actual wounding but rather over 2 years later when stationed at Ft. Lewis Washington, 3/60th, 2nd bde, 9th light.

Our patrol is in a damp, cold dark woods, I smell sweat, funk of my flax jacket and rotting wood- we creep ever so slowly forward, only a compass azimuth to guide us, NO landmarks, no GPS. Pointman kneels and gives the halt signal. After a security pause i creep forward to see. A small clearing, bright sun- WARM. I can smell fresh, flowers, life. For some dumbass reason i stand and walk out into the sun. It FEELS, i feel the warmth, the loosening of my muscles. my eyes close and I hear a faint tinkling. Goats come into view, I smile at the boy driving them. he wears a funny flat topped hat, fancy little vest. I smell the goats. Suddenly i feel intense pain and hear the shot. I fall. next thought is the chopper ride- not at all like the one I got with a bloody face- i feel nothing, just hear and see. next scene is a city like operating room i am above the table watching me being operated on. I see and hear my parents but they don't see me. i watch me die on the table. I want to tell my parents it is ok but I of course can't. i wake-up. i smoke a cigarette and smell of stale sweat and am shaking just a bit.

No trauma, no near death injury or drug overdose. But as vivid and intense as if it was a slightly weird real life, and I mean REAL FREAKIN' LIFE! our brains do weird crap at the damnest times. I don't think someone needs to almost die to have the brain play bizarre tricks on us and we can easily buy into them.

But it is just a trick of the mind, not a peek into the 'other side'.
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It sounds like a lucid dream to me...You were scared and needed to see your parents.....and you saw them... This is not unusual....a helluva experience tho.....
 
Juanita said:
It sounds like a lucid dream to me...You were scared and needed to see your parents.....and you saw them... This is not unusual....a helluva experience tho.....
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It was an extremely 'tactile' dream- smells, sights, feeling the warmth- one that repeated several times while I was stationed at Ft. Lewis. Actually I wasn't scared, I accepted I was going to die, just felt bad my parents- though ardent conservatives they were not happy I enlisted as a grunt- and I wanted them to not feel bad. I was rather agitated and aggressive after a dream, I once tried to use my room mate as a battering ram when he didn't turn off the light when i sat in the dark after a dream.

point is your brain can create a very vivid 'experience' with or without trauma. I don't believe we see heaven or hell but what our brains conjure while under stress. This guy, being poisoned has his mind affected not unlike an intense mind altering drug, he wasn't bleeding out but under intense chemical attack. I was told in NBC training that Roosian nerve agent could have a psychedelic affect and we should ignore that and concentrate on our decontamination procedures, if we stopped to marvel at the affect we would die. (I never wanted to find out)

When stressed or in intense pain our body releases chemicals that alter our mental state. I don't see the tales as giving insight.
 
Juanita said:
"Science never proves anything"--how true.....Can you see the micro waves from your microwave oven? Can you see the signal coming into your TV?
Cab you see the radio waves from your radio? Just because you cannot see something, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist...
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You don't have to see microwaves to know they're there; you see their effects. The same for TV, Radio, and even the wind. Science doesn't require that you see something to believe in it. Science is all about measuring changes due to events; all the measuring and math aside, it's just a way to describe change.

Using wind as an example; I've never seen wind once in my life. Ever. But, I know it's there due to the grass swaying and the leaves spinning; the changes that occur due to it.

I don't need a ghost in a jar. Show me something changing due to a ghost and I'd believe in them. I don't even need to see the ghost or the change it causes, just reasonable evidence that a change has taken place that is best described due to a ghost. (I use ghosts as an example, it could be any supernatural thing.)
 
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