Ian McCormack - an Atheist - Dead on Morgue Slab - Goes to Hell . . .

[Surtr]

You didn't answer the question?

I did. There's no factual basis for this claim. Buying this claim at face value is as ridiculous as believing that the Statue of Liberty is for sale. Hence, the idiom. You have to demonstrate how this phenomena has any credibility that goes beyond the medically accepted explanations. "You don't understand" and "nuh uh" are not valid arguments. I've had a psychotic episode that caused my own body to be alien to me, and I honestly believed that I could hear people's thoughts. It wasn't spiritual by any means. It was amphetamine induced psychosis from the pills Uncle Sam decided that I needed. Malfunctions of the brain can be extremely powerful, and if you aren't careful, you can confuse delusion for reality very easily.

 

[Juanita]

It was an extremely 'tactile' dream- smells, sights, feeling the warmth- one that repeated several times while I was stationed at Ft. Lewis. Actually I wasn't scared, I accepted I was going to die, just felt bad my parents- though ardent conservatives they were not happy I enlisted as a grunt- and I wanted them to not feel bad. I was rather agitated and aggressive after a dream, I once tried to use my room mate as a battering ram when he didn't turn off the light when i sat in the dark after a dream.

point is your brain can create a very vivid 'experience' with or without trauma. I don't believe we see heaven or helkil but what our brains conjure while under stress. This guy, being poisoned has his mind affected not unlike an intense mind altering drug, he wasn't bleeding out but under intense chemical attack. I was told in NBC training that Roosian nerve agent could have a psychedelic affect and we should ignore that and concentrate on our decontamination procedures, if we stopped to marvel at the affect we would die. (I never wanted to find out)

When stressed or in intense pain our body releases chemicals that alter our mental state. I don't see the tales as giving insight.

Truly, you cannot blame it all on your brain.....They are not tales.... I am a Spiritulist for a reason..... Spirit exists.....The Afterlife is real...Reincarnation is true.....There is a whole other world out there and just because "you" can't see it or feel it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist...You should do some reading on it...

 

[Juanita]

I did. There's no factual basis for this claim. Buying this claim at face value is as ridiculous as believing that the Statue of Liberty is for sale. Hence, the idiom. You have to demonstrate how this phenomena has any credibility that goes beyond the medically accepted explanations. "You don't understand" and "nuh uh" are not valid arguments. I've had a psychotic episode that caused my own body to be alien to me, and I honestly believed that I could hear people's thoughts. It wasn't spiritual by any means. It was amphetamine induced psychosis from the pills Uncle Sam decided that I needed. Malfunctions of the brain can be extremely powerful, and if you aren't careful, you can confuse delusion for reality very easily.

Do you think that this is just a story that I read somewhere? You never explained how she could repeat a conversation that she heard outside of the hospital room and down the hall......

 

[Surtr]

Do you think that this is just a story that I read somewhere? You never explained how she could repeat a conversation that she heard outside of the hospital room and down the hall......

Oh, I think it's a story alright. Especially since you keep adding new details.

 

[Juanita]

Oh, I think it's a story alright. Especially since you keep adding new details.

What details did I add? post #70 was the original post.... That's a heck of a way to get out of answering the question.....You have no answer or explanation and I don't appreciate being called a liar....

 

[douglas]

In case this wasn't posted yet; I believe the NDE story we're debating is that of Anita Moorjani. A newspaper clipping of the incident is here http://anitamoorjani.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Media07-read.jpg Not only did she claim that she heard a conversation from down the hall, she claims that her body miraculously cured itself of cancer. In fact, the only person who seems to uphold any of this story is her "alternative healer".

The Oncologist says they cured the cancer with medicine, Anita says she cured the cancer with spirituality, and The alternative healer claims to have made the medicine work through spirituality.

Anita had refused chemotherapy for 3.5 years, probably due to spiritual beliefs. I can only assume that this is the only reason she almost died in the first place.

 

[Juanita]

In case this wasn't posted yet; I believe the NDE story we're debating is that of Anita Moorjani. A newspaper clipping of the incident is here http://anitamoorjani.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Media07-read.jpg Not only did she claim that she heard a conversation from down the hall, she claims that her body miraculously cured itself of cancer. In fact, the only person who seems to uphold any of this story is her "alternative healer".

The Oncologist says they cured the cancer with medicine, Anita says she cured the cancer with spirituality, and The alternative healer claims to have made the medicine work through spirituality.

Anita had refused chemotherapy for 3.5 years, probably due to spiritual beliefs. I can only assume that this is the only reason she almost died in the first place.

I have heard of this case and it might be the case that they were originally talking about, although I thought it was the professional guy....It was not the case that I was talking about tho....

 

[tosca1]

There's a unicorn behind you. Yup, it's right behind you, but it's really quiet.
Oh, you turned around and it wasn't there?
Well it's an invisible unicorn.
And it's intangible.
In fact, no scientific test could ever verify it's existence.
But it's there, right behind you.

That's the false logic of believing in something just because it hasn't been disproved. If you claim something exists, the burden of proof is on you, the believer. If logic allowed for a burden of disproof, we'd have to believe in monsters, every religious deity, and magic, since I can't prove they don't exist. Should I just believe that everything exists? Nope, that's the fallacy of a burden of disproof. There is a reasonable burden of disproof, but it's to disprove the evidence for another's claims, not to disprove another's claims without evidence. There is no rational thought without a burden of proof behind every statement; you have to be able to back up what you say, or it's meaningless.

The problem with supernatural activity is not that scientists just don't examine the evidence of supernatural stuff, the problem is that they do. After almost 200 years of research, there is still no convincing evidence for any forces other than the 4 principle forces that we know of and the variations and/or interactions between them. This article, Telekinesis and Quantum Field Theory | Sean Carroll , shows a chart that proves that there is no room for a new, supernatural, force of nature. This is my proof for my statement. If you still believe that supernatural forces exist, you can disprove me.

If mankind were all blind and had no knowledge of what we all know now.....would you say the moon and the stars don't exist?

 

[tosca1]

Originally Posted by douglas View Post

There's a unicorn behind you. Yup, it's right behind you, but it's really quiet.
Oh, you turned around and it wasn't there?
Well it's an invisible unicorn.
And it's intangible.
In fact, no scientific test could ever verify it's existence.
But it's there, right behind you.

That's the false logic of believing in something just because it hasn't been disproved. If you claim something exists, the burden of proof is on you, the believer.

The false logic is saying that something doesn't exists just because it hasn't been proven to exist. Furthermore, what you're claiming to be non-existent is something that is not covered by natural or scientific laws.

The supernatural is not accepted by science simply because it cannot be scientifically proven. You've got to consider the fact too that only a small percentage is scientifically known about the human brain.

So I ask you:

If mankind were all blind and had no knowledge of what we all know now.....would you say the moon and the stars don't exist?

 

[RGacky3]

There's a unicorn behind you. Yup, it's right behind you, but it's really quiet.
Oh, you turned around and it wasn't there?
Well it's an invisible unicorn.
And it's intangible.
In fact, no scientific test could ever verify it's existence.
But it's there, right behind you.

That's the false logic of believing in something just because it hasn't been disproved. If you claim something exists, the burden of proof is on you, the believer. If logic allowed for a burden of disproof, we'd have to believe in monsters, every religious deity, and magic, since I can't prove they don't exist. Should I just believe that everything exists? Nope, that's the fallacy of a burden of disproof. There is a reasonable burden of disproof, but it's to disprove the evidence for another's claims, not to disprove another's claims without evidence. There is no rational thought without a burden of proof behind every statement; you have to be able to back up what you say, or it's meaningless.

The problem with supernatural activity is not that scientists just don't examine the evidence of supernatural stuff, the problem is that they do. After almost 200 years of research, there is still no convincing evidence for any forces other than the 4 principle forces that we know of and the variations and/or interactions between them. This article, Telekinesis and Quantum Field Theory | Sean Carroll , shows a chart that proves that there is no room for a new, supernatural, force of nature. This is my proof for my statement. If you still believe that supernatural forces exist, you can disprove me.

It its an invisible and intagible unicorn it's not a unicorn, because a unicorn is a horse (a flesh and blood creature with shape) and a horn (a physical visual object).

 

[afr0byte]

How about the folks who have had OBEs (out of body experiences) or can astral project at will? They are neither dead nor near death?

I'll try and find it, but I read an article about Swiss doctors that accidentally caused a woman to feel like she left her body, simply because they'd stimulated a specific part of her brain.

 

[Ikari]

Sorry, no disrespect, but I'm not a Pagan and don't believe in magic---altho it may exist somewhere.....

Gods are magic, mysticism is magic, spiritual stuff is just another word for magic.

 

[notquiteright]

Truly, you cannot blame it all on your brain.....They are not tales.... I am a Spiritulist for a reason..... Spirit exists.....The Afterlife is real...Reincarnation is true.....There is a whole other world out there and just because "you" can't see it or feel it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist...You should do some reading on it...

Already have done some exploring on this- do you REALLY think I could just sit there and have these dreams repeatedly and NOT try and understand? Not everyone who thinks there isn't an afterlife holds that opinion because they have not gone looking. I went, I didn't see, I shrugged, I moved on.

Just for the record I think the stories like Ian have are fabricated, not true 'near death', or 'back from the dead' lookie folks I seen Heaven/Hell stories.

Any afterlife doesn't need anyone's belief to exist, nor require a guide/spokesperson. It does seem a handy way to get folks to sacrifice life and tolerate injustice in this life because oh how the afterlife will reward you. "Aunt June is happy you are married and says she loves you!" messages from beyond don't impress me much.

 

[Surtr]

What details did I add? post #70 was the original post.... That's a heck of a way to get out of answering the question.....You have no answer or explanation and I don't appreciate being called a liar....

And nowhere in that post did you say that this person repeated the conversation. I didn't call you a liar, but if you want to avoid it, stop making things up. All you did was tell a story with no corroborating evidence to support it.

 

[Peter Grimm]

Well, I could be wrong. But what I consider dead is brain dead. No one's ever been brought back from that. I talked about a young man I knew who benefited greatly from affirmative action in another thread. He told me he was declared dead and woke up in the morgue when he was in the military. He also experienced 'an afterlife.' Very moved by it, he was. But he obviously wasn't dead. As in dead dead. *shrug*

Actually, Jesus resurrected the daughter of Jairus shortly after death, a young man in the midst of his own funeral procession, and of course Lazarus, who had been buried for four days.

Then he resurrected Himself after 3 days.

 

[Juanita]

I'll try and find it, but I read an article about Swiss doctors that accidentally caused a woman to feel like she left her body, simply because they'd stimulated a specific part of her brain.

That is interesting..I have read something similar. Perhaps that is a part of the brain that is responsible for the ability to astral travel...Do you remember if the article said anything about further studies?

 

[Juanita]

Gods are magic, mysticism is magic, spiritual stuff is just another word for magic.

It is interesting that what you call magic, others call supernatural.... It is neither, IMO....Spirit is as natural as the air we breathe, but you are welcome to use any terminology that you wish...

 

[Juanita]

Already have done some exploring on this- do you REALLY think I could just sit there and have these dreams repeatedly and NOT try and understand? Not everyone who thinks there isn't an afterlife holds that opinion because they have not gone looking. I went, I didn't see, I shrugged, I moved on.

Just for the record I think the stories like Ian have are fabricated, not true 'near death', or 'back from the dead' lookie folks I seen Heaven/Hell stories.

Any afterlife doesn't need anyone's belief to exist, nor require a guide/spokesperson. It does seem a handy way to get folks to sacrifice life and tolerate injustice in this life because oh how the afterlife will reward you. "Aunt June is happy you are married and says she loves you!" messages from beyond don't impress me much.

You, of course, can believe anything that you please, but literally thousands of NDE reports can not, IMO, be fabricated.. I, on the other hand, went looking, saw and accepted. The afterlife may not be exactly what you might perceive it to be.... A good Medium will validate beyond your wildest hope... Do not be so quick to dismiss, simply because you do not understand.

 

[Juanita]

How would you explain a woman who was in a bad accident, was comatose in the hospital, her soul/conscienceness leaves her body--she sees herself lying on the bed, surrounded by family, goes out to the hallway, watches and listens to her son and nephew talking, wanders about for a bit, comes back into her body--eventually wakes up to see her mother and stepfather standing by the bed, only the stepfather had transitioned a couple of years before this...Explain how you think that biology played any part of this.....

Above is what I said.."listens to her son and nephew talking"---I wasn't writing a book.. How would that be known and accepted if she hadn't been able to repeat what she had heard.....It is a T R U E story and nobody cares if you believe it or not....

 

[Guy Incognito]

You, of course, can believe anything that you please, but literally thousands of NDE reports can not, IMO, be fabricated.. I, on the other hand, went looking, saw and accepted. The afterlife may not be exactly what you might perceive it to be.... A good Medium will validate beyond your wildest hope... Do not be so quick to dismiss, simply because you do not understand.

That's absurd. Think about what you are saying. That a doctor can resurrect a person from death? Perform a miracle? That God can determine the Eternal Fate of a person, a person finds himself in the Afterlife, and then God's Will is somehow undone by man??

The hubris! So ridiculous.

God does not make mistakes! Man, on the other hand, makes plenty.

 

[notquiteright]

You, of course, can believe anything that you please, but literally thousands of NDE reports can not, IMO, be fabricated.. I, on the other hand, went looking, saw and accepted. The afterlife may not be exactly what you might perceive it to be.... A good Medium will validate beyond your wildest hope... Do not be so quick to dismiss, simply because you do not understand.

Sorry sweetie, i have seen too many tests done that show how unreliable the brain is, how easily it can be tricked, how many want to be deceived (their wildest hope vs all scientific doubt- I see what you did there ) , how cold reads work and how easy the three card monty is to pull off.

Watch Brain Games or Bang Goes the Theory and see how unreliable 'eye witnesses' are, much less those under stress, pain or drugs which poison is, watch how much our brain fills in that wasn't there. Dunno about thousands of reports, just the ones like the putz being paraded in front of the marks on the 700 Club.

I wasn't quick to dismiss, I went down that rabbit hole decades ago. it's more a case of you just met me and have no idea what I have experienced or done- if you hold my hand and we both gaze into a single object together will that help you 'see' where I have been?

 

[Juanita]

That's absurd. Think about what you are saying. That a doctor can resurrect a person from death? Perform a miracle? That God can determine the Eternal Fate of a person, a person finds himself in the Afterlife, and then God's Will is somehow undone by man??

The hubris! So ridiculous. t

God does not make mistakes! Man, on the other hand, makes plenty.

What? I don't even understand what you are saying...where in the world did you read that a doctor can bring someone back from the dead? Are you referring to NDEs (near death experiences)?

 

[Juanita]

Actually, Jesus resurrected the daughter of Jairus shortly after death, a young man in the midst of his own funeral procession, and of course Lazarus, who had been buried for four days.

Then he resurrected Himself after 3 days.

Did he?

 

[Josie]

Let me repeat--we are Spiritual Beings temporarily in a physical body....When the physical body dies, the soul/spirit/conscienceness leaves the body..you see with your spiritual eyes... You are met and assisted with your transition by loved ones in spirit and a spirit guide..

I do believe that we are a soul or spirit that has a physical body to use on Earth. When our body dies, our soul leaves. I do think I'll see loved ones that have passed on, but I'm confused by "spirit guide". What do you mean there?

 

[Juanita]

Sorry sweetie, i have seen too many tests done that show how unreliable the brain is, how easily it can be tricked, how many want to be deceived (their wildest hope vs all scientific doubt- I see what you did there ) , how cold reads work and how easy the three card monty is to pull off.

Watch Brain Games or Bang Goes the Theory and see how unreliable 'eye witnesses' are, much less those under stress, pain or drugs which poison is, watch how much our brain fills in that wasn't there. Dunno about thousands of reports, just the ones like the putz being paraded in front of the marks on the 700 Club.

I wasn't quick to dismiss, I went down that rabbit hole decades ago. it's more a case of you just met me and have no idea what I have experienced or done- if you hold my hand and we both gaze into a single object together will that help you 'see' where I have been?

Sweetie, perhaps you searched in all the wrong places.... The Brain is not the same as your conscienceness/soul/spirit..despite what scientists may think....You mean like a crystal ball? Seriously, I can understand the frustration of the search...It is a journey of discovery that many undertake, but is not always successful.