How to win at collegiate debate: pull the race card.

[justabubba]

Wow, unbelievable. You are obviously not afraid of being called a racist or a homophobe. Why don't you take your hatred and contempt to your own space instead of forcing it on the rest of us.

he is entitled to his opinions
just as much as you and i are ours
debate his points
argue effectively against him
but do not complain that he gets to expose his opinions for all to see
you are NOT being forced to read it

 

[RiverDad]

Wow, unbelievable. You are obviously not afraid of being called a racist or a homophobe. Why don't you take your hatred and contempt to your own space instead of forcing it on the rest of us.

You should defend what is described in the article. I've clearly staked out my position - pulling the race-card is not debate and it shouldn't be rewarded and that fact that it is being rewarded is likely due to judges fearing being called racists.

Explain why my position is wrong.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

I notice that you're still relying on the tactic of not engaging in the details of the Atlantic's article and are doubling down on your strategy of distraction. Boring, but I get it, when you can't defend the "benefits" of diversity, then you really do have to resort to lighting your hair on fire and running around screaming in order to create a distraction.

As per your usual practice, you made some rather broad statements that you have completely failed to back up with anything other than statements out of context, sources nobody else can read, and completely made-up bull****. I called you on it, and the best you can do is whine. Par for the course.

 

[RiverDad]

As per your usual practice, you made some rather broad statements that you have completely failed to back up with anything other than statements out of context, sources nobody else can read, and completely made-up bull****. I called you on it, and the best you can do is whine. Par for the course.

I made two specific claims which are twisting your panties into a knot. I poked fun at liberal propaganda which claims that diversity is a benefit, that it is enriching. That claim is supported by the article I provided, as noted in the abstract:

When student, faculty, and administrators; evaluations of the educational and racial atmosphere were correlated with the percentage of minority students enrolled at a college or university, the predicted positive associations of educational benefits and inter‐racial understanding failed to appear. Thus, the findings failed to support the argument that enrollment diversity improves the education and racial milieu at American colleges and universities.​

No benefit was found. It's just propaganda.

Then I made a more specific claim, that the experience of college diminished in relation to the proportion of students who were black or Hispanic. That finding is noted in the article itself. Go buy the article and read it.

Now, even with your panties in a knot, why don't you stop with the distraction efforts and engage on the point of this thread. Defend this new form of debate that these African-American students are championing. Explain to all assembled in this thread why "discussion of concepts like “nigga authenticity” and performed hip-hop and spoken-word poetry in the traditional timed format" are debate tactics that should be rewarded?

 

[ecofarm]

No, I told you that black admissions are almost always disjoint from the admissions of whites. The overlap is minimal. This means that, effectively, most admissions are due to Affirmative Action.

Racist BS.

 

[RiverDad]

Racist BS.

I see that you're relying on the advanced methods taught you in your graduate sociology seminars. Bravo.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

I made two specific claims which are twisting your panties into a knot. I poked fun at liberal propaganda which claims that diversity is a benefit, that it is enriching. That claim is supported by the article I provided, as noted in the abstract:

When student, faculty, and administrators; evaluations of the educational and racial atmosphere were correlated with the percentage of minority students enrolled at a college or university, the predicted positive associations of educational benefits and inter‐racial understanding failed to appear. Thus, the findings failed to support the argument that enrollment diversity improves the education and racial milieu at American colleges and universities.​

No benefit was found. It's just propaganda.

Then I made a more specific claim, that the experience of college diminished in relation to the proportion of students who were black or Hispanic. That finding is noted in the article itself. Go buy the article and read it.

Now, even with your panties in a knot, why don't you stop with the distraction efforts and engage on the point of this thread. Defend this new form of debate that these African-American students are championing. Explain to all assembled in this thread why "discussion of concepts like “nigga authenticity” and performed hip-hop and spoken-word poetry in the traditional timed format" are debate tactics that should be rewarded?

There you go, lying again. What actually happened was that you claimed that the experience of college diminished in relation to the proportion of students who were black or Hispanic, and your sole source of evidence was an article whose abstract merely said there was no increase in the predicted positive associations.

Do you ever get tired of twisting facts and quoting out of context and lying?

 

[ecofarm]

Bravo.

I call 'em like I see 'em.

It has long been a tradition of racists to take bits of articles out of context and draw conclusions not drawn in the article. That you do it pretty much all the time is not a reflection on me.

 

[RiverDad]

There you go, lying again. What actually happened was that you claimed that the experience of college diminished in relation to the proportion of students who were black or Hispanic, and your sole source of evidence was an article whose abstract merely said there was no increase in the predicted positive associations.

Do you ever get tired of twisting facts and quoting out of context and lying?

I made direct quotes to the article. I understand that you haven't gone to university nor read research articles but most of us know that an abstract is not the entire article, it's just a summary of the article. That's what's tripping you up, the expectation that an abstract will cover every single damn point discussed within the article.

 

[ecofarm]

I made direct quotes to the article. I understand that you haven't gone to university nor read research articles but most of us know that an abstract is not the entire article, it's just a summary of the article. That's what's tripping you up, the expectation that an abstract will cover every single damn point discussed within the article.

Irony, from the guy who grabs a paragraph or two and misrepresents the article and its conclusions.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

I made direct quotes to the article. I understand that you haven't gone to university nor read research articles but most of us know that an abstract is not the entire article, it's just a summary of the article. That's what's tripping you up, the expectation that an abstract will cover every single damn point discussed within the article.

I understand that, as you are unable to produce reputable sources which are accessible to the public in order to back up your lies and distortions, you are now resorting to baseless observations of me personally. I, on the other hand, will continue to make observations of you which are founded in your posts on this forum, mainly that you lie and distort the truth.

 

[RiverDad]

Can't you liberals actually defend what you believe in? Defend these new debate strategies and values. Stop with the distractions. Defend these new "diverse" debate methods.

Explain to us why the white students who wanted to cut themselves away from the clowns are wrong to do so.

 

[RiverDad]

Irony, from the guy who grabs a paragraph or two and misrepresents the article and its conclusions.

All you have to do is SHOW how I've misrepresented the article. Be my guest, SHOW US.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Can't you liberals actually defend what you believe in? Defend these new debate strategies and values. Stop with the distractions. Defend these new "diverse" debate methods.

Explain to us why the white students who wanted to cut themselves away from the clowns are wrong to do so.

Cant you liars and distorters of fact defend explicit statements you make with sources accessible to the public?

 

[RiverDad]

Cant you liars and distorters of fact defend explicit statements you make with sources accessible to the public?

Distorter of facts you say. Your logic is so addled that it's surprising that you can even write the semi-coherent sentences that you vomit out on this board. For you to claim that I'm distorting facts you have to first be aware of the facts. In this thread you've admitted that you're not aware of the facts, therefore you have no grounds to claim that I'm distorting anything. All you have is that you don't like the facts I've presented. You objecting to reality doesn't make me a distorter of reality.

Now to show you that I'm not the kind of guy who kicks addled people in the nuts, I'm going to link to the New York Times (don't be too bothered by this über-conservative newspaper)

Whatever it decides, the court should be skeptical of one of the most popular justifications for preferential treatment of minority applicants: that a diverse student body necessarily improves the quality of education for everyone.

One of the most comprehensive studies ever undertaken of diversity in higher education indicates that this contention is at least questionable. The study's findings show that college diversity programs fail to raise standards, and that a majority of faculty members and administrators recognize this when speaking anonymously.

To find out, in 1999 we surveyed a random sample of more than 1,600 students and 2,400 faculty members and administrators at 140 American colleges and universities, asking them to evaluate the quality of education at their institution, the academic preparation and work habits of the student body, the state of race relations on campus and their own experiences of discrimination. Then we correlated their responses with the proportion of black students attending each institution, based on government statistics.

If diversity works as advertised, we surmised, then those at institutions with higher proportions of black enrollment should rate their educational and racial milieus more favorably than their peers at institutions with lower proportions.

The results contradict almost every benefit claimed for campus diversity. Students, faculty members and administrators all responded to increasing racial diversity by registering increased dissatisfaction with the quality of education and the work ethic of their peers. Students also increasingly complained about discrimination.

Moreover, diversity fails to deliver even when all else is equal. When we controlled for other demographic and institutional factors like the respondent's race, gender, economic background and religion, or an institution's public or private status, selectivity and whether it offers an ethnic or racial studies program, the results were surprising. A higher level of diversity is associated with somewhat less educational satisfaction and worse race relations among students.​

And note the presence of this glorious easter egg - I often make reference to how people express PUBLIC LIES while holding onto PRIVATE TRUTHS and what do you know:

Among the most striking findings is the silent opposition of so many who administer these programs — yet must publicly support them. Although a small majority of administrators support admissions preferences, 47.7 percent oppose them. In addition, when asked to estimate the impact of preferential admissions on university academic standards, about two-thirds say there is none. Most dismaying, of those who think that preferences have some impact on academic standards, those believing it negative exceed those believing it positive by 15 to 1.

One cannot help but wonder why the public and private views of higher education's leadership differ so greatly. It would be useful to have some good studies of that question.​

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Distorter of facts you say. Your logic is so addled that it's surprising that you can even write the semi-coherent sentences that you vomit out on this board. For you to claim that I'm distorting facts you have to first be aware of the facts. In this thread you've admitted that you're not aware of the facts, therefore you have no grounds to claim that I'm distorting anything. All you have is that you don't like the facts I've presented. You objecting to reality doesn't make me a distorter of reality.

Now to show you that I'm not the kind of guy who kicks addled people in the nuts, I'm going to link to the New York Times (don't be too bothered by this über-conservative newspaper)

Finally, a source your audience can review. First, let's go back and review your original claim: "Is it any wonder that faculty and white students find that the quality of the educational experience diminishes as the proportion of black and Hispanic students increases?"

From the NYT op-ed piece you just linked to:

Hispanic enrollment has little effect on any group's ratings of the educational or racial climate.

Additionally, this article makes contradictory claims. For example, it claims that increased diversity results in overall dissatisfaction, yet increases in Hispanic enrollment have little effect, and increases in Asian enrollment resulted in the perception of a positive effect. The article claims that increases in diversity have a negative effect while also claiming other things entirely. So either the writer is confused or the issue is far more complex than either you or the op-ed's author would like us to believe.

Finally, you're giving me a 12 year-old op-ed piece about a 15 year-old study and acting like it's still current.

So yeah, you distort the facts and you lie. Got a real source?

 

[ludin]

It's interesting watching the boilerplate liberal reactions so far in this thread. They've all taken care to avoid engaging in the issue and have instead focused their efforts at disqualification.

Why don't you liberals defend the new clown standards for debate?

well they can easily defend it because that is the only way they can debate when they can't support their position.
they do some mixture of these 3 things.

1. Deny that you addressed what they said (common)
2. throw out an ad hominim
3. throw out a strawman argument.
4. or play the race/bigot card.

 

[ecofarm]

All you have to do is SHOW how I've misrepresented the article. Be my guest, SHOW US.

Critical Thought already did. I showed how you misrepresented the 52 percentile in the other thread.

No one cares about your out of context paragraphs, nor your BS conclusions that are not drawn in the paper. So, you misrepresent articles... big deal, we've seen it before.

 

[RiverDad]

For example, it claims that increased diversity results in overall dissatisfaction, yet increases in Hispanic enrollment have little effect, and increases in Asian enrollment resulted in the perception of a positive effect.

Liberals don't see Asian students as part of the diversity formula - they're treated as honorary whites. This is why when Mayor De Blasio is bemoaning the lack of diversity in NYC's elite high schools, he's not considering that they're 72% Asian.

The article claims that increases in diversity have a negative effect while also claiming other things entirely. So either the writer is confused or the issue is far more complex than either you or the op-ed's author would like us to believe.

The researchers are not confused, you're confused in that you believe you can dissect such research from an op-ed you've read in the NYT. Go buy the freaking article and do a proper refutation by first reading the damn thing.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Liberals don't see Asian students as part of the diversity formula - they're treated as honorary whites. This is why when Mayor De Blasio is bemoaning the lack of diversity in NYC's elite high schools, he's not considering that they're 72% Asian.

So diversity is bad ... except when diversity is good. Got it.

The researchers are not confused, you're confused in that you believe you can dissect such research from an op-ed you've read in the NYT.

I dissected a source you provided.

Go buy the freaking article and do a proper refutation by first reading the damn thing.

I simply can't justify the expense of paying for the privilege of pointing out where you're full of crap. As I've told you several times now, serve up a source that is available to your audience.

 

[RiverDad]

So diversity is bad ... except when diversity is good. Got it.

Read the damn study. The experience is enhanced because the Asian students are intelligent students who add to the classroom environment. It's their intellect, not their racial identity, which is the independent variable. Race is the proxy variable. Asian students don't qualify for Affirmative Action, they're admitted because they deserve to be admitted.

As I've told you several times now, serve up a source that is available to your audience.

I'm not inclined to be dragged further into your psychosis - knowledge exists which isn't readily available on the web. I've learned to deal with this and you apparently haven't. Take it up with your shrink.

Now that my point has been supported, you can turn your attention to the topic of this thread instead of purposefully derailing the thread.

Defend the clowns.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Read the damn study. The experience is enhanced because the Asian students are intelligent students who add to the classroom environment. It's their intellect, not their racial identity, which is the independent variable. Race is the proxy variable. Asian students don't qualify for Affirmative Action, they're admitted because they deserve to be admitted.

No, the source you provided wasn't about actual intelligence, it was about the perception of intelligence. From the article: "As the proportion of Asian students increased, however, faculty members and administrators perceived an improvement in the academic quality of their students."

I'm not inclined to be dragged further into your psychosis

You don't have sources which are available to your audience? Okie doke, feel free to continue distorting the facts and lying, you certainly don't need sources for that.

 

[RiverDad]

Resolved: The United States Federal Government should substantially increase statutory and/or judicial restrictions on the war powers authority of the President of the United States in one or more of the following areas: targeted killing, indefinite detention, offensive cyber operations, or introducing United States Armed Forces into hostilities.

 

[sangha]

Resolved: The United States Federal Government should substantially increase statutory and/or judicial restrictions on the war powers authority of the President of the United States in one or more of the following areas: targeted killing, indefinite detention, offensive cyber operations, or introducing United States Armed Forces into hostilities.

Thank you for posting that. It shows that the black students are not only better speakers, but that they also have better arguments

 

[RiverDad]

Thank you for posting that. It shows that the black students are not only better speakers, but that they also have better arguments

You're welcome. It's definitely a weird sub-culture but the blacks students not even addressing the issue means that they don't have the better argument. If those Harvard blabbermouths are speaking to the issue then they win by default.