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How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting List"

TheDemSocialist

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I have a question... How many people die per year under a socialized healthcare system for being on a "waiting list"? I know under our privatized system around 35,000-45,000 die per year for not being covered under insurance. Now how many people die per year under socialized medicine system for being on a "waiting list"? Does anyone have a figure?
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

45,000 people deaths are associated with lack of insurance, not because of lack of insurance.

the deaths are caused by various medical conditions that are left untreated.... they are untreated because of direct choices made by those folks.
I understand why some of the choices to forgo treatment are made ( not wanting to incur debt, inability to pay for medications, etc) but attributing these deaths to lack of insurance is not accurate..... attributing an association is, though.

in most of these cases, direct medical treatment is not necessary to prevent these deaths...simple lifestyle changes will do the trick marvelously.
if you blood pressure is through the roof, you're a disgusting fatbody, and you can't take a breathe without lighting up... you don't need to incur debt to right these wrongs... you simply must cease the destructive behavior and exercise.
instead of spending money to be told to do the right thing, just do the right thing and save yourself a ton of money.
if you quit smoking, you find that you are, seemingly by magic, able to afford 10 check-ups per year, complete with bloodwork.


as for how many people die under a socialist healthcare system... I believe the number is zero... people under a socialized healthcare system are the models of perfect human health and don't make bad personal health decisions....
I highly doubt that is true, but it's what Socialized medicine proponents want to hear.
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

My guess is that a lot of people die under both systems since humans have a limited life span ...
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

My guess is that a lot of people die under both systems since humans have a limited life span ...

Die from being on the "waiting list"?
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

Die from being on the "waiting list"?

Oh sorry, some days I can't read it seems.
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

Does anyone have a number cuz i thought it was hell under socialized medicine
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

I have a question... How many people die per year under a socialized healthcare system for being on a "waiting list"? I know under our privatized system around 35,000-45,000 die per year for not being covered under insurance. Now how many people die per year under socialized medicine system for being on a "waiting list"? Does anyone have a figure?

Straight up, I walked into the county hospital. I was told very quickly a heart transplant was in my future. I have gotten excellent care. And at the ripe old old age of 44 I get medicare.

A year and 8 months later I'm pretty much still told the same thing. And with out medicare I don't know how a wealthy person could make it through this.
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

Straight up, I walked into the county hospital. I was told very quickly a heart transplant was in my future. I have gotten excellent care. And at the ripe old old age of 44 I get medicare.

A year and 8 months later I'm pretty much still told the same thing. And with out medicare I don't know how a wealthy person could make it through this.

You might find this paper to be of personal interest, then:


Death on the waiting list for cardiac surgery

Two studies into mortality while awaiting cardiac surgery are published in this issue 1 2: one from New Zealand and one from the Netherlands. These countries have long waits for routine surgery, as does the UK—the median out of hospital waiting time of 146 days for surgery in New Zealand compares with a current median wait of 175 days for routine surgery at Wythenshawe Hospital in Manchester, UK. The mortality while waiting for coronary artery bypass surgery (CABG) in New Zealand was 2.6%. In the Netherlands, where waits were somewhat shorter, mortality was 0.6% for CABG and 1.4% for combined CABG and valve surgery. This mortality was despite the usual attempts to categorise patients according to the perceived risk of waiting for surgery. A previous study from the UK 3 reported a cardiac surgery waiting list mortality of a similar magnitude to the New Zealand publication.​
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

You might find this paper to be of personal interest, then:

Death on the waiting list for cardiac surgery

Two studies into mortality while awaiting cardiac surgery are published in this issue 1 2: one from New Zealand and one from the Netherlands. These countries have long waits for routine surgery, as does the UK—the median out of hospital waiting time of 146 days for surgery in New Zealand compares with a current median wait of 175 days for routine surgery at Wythenshawe Hospital in Manchester, UK. The mortality while waiting for coronary artery bypass surgery (CABG) in New Zealand was 2.6%. In the Netherlands, where waits were somewhat shorter, mortality was 0.6% for CABG and 1.4% for combined CABG and valve surgery. This mortality was despite the usual attempts to categorise patients according to the perceived risk of waiting for surgery. A previous study from the UK 3 reported a cardiac surgery waiting list mortality of a similar magnitude to the New Zealand publication.

Wow people with heart problems die!!! You gotta be ****ing kidding me!

The mortality while waiting for coronary artery bypass surgery (CABG) in New Zealand was 2.6%.


And in the mean time 97.4% do what?
 
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Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

I have a question... How many people die per year under a socialized healthcare system for being on a "waiting list"? I know under our privatized system around 35,000-45,000 die per year for not being covered under insurance. Now how many people die per year under socialized medicine system for being on a "waiting list"? Does anyone have a figure?

Queensland health figures

http://www.health.qld.gov.au/performance/docs/access_surgery.pdf
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

Wow people with heart problems die!!! You gotta be ****ing kidding me!

The mortality while waiting for coronary artery bypass surgery (CABG) in New Zealand was 2.6%.


And in the mean time 97.4% do what?

Yes surprisingly people DO die from heart complaints - most often because we have told them to go home, quit !@#!@# smoking and THEN we will consider CABG - and the REASON why we do that? Well, you see we actually have to split open the chest when we do this sort of surgery and the smokers have a horrible habit of becoming infected and the chest wound "re-opening". One of my least favourite memories is of washing out an open chest wound by sloshing warm saline on a still beating heart
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

You might find this paper to be of personal interest, then:


Death on the waiting list for cardiac surgery

Two studies into mortality while awaiting cardiac surgery are published in this issue 1 2: one from New Zealand and one from the Netherlands. These countries have long waits for routine surgery, as does the UK—the median out of hospital waiting time of 146 days for surgery in New Zealand compares with a current median wait of 175 days for routine surgery at Wythenshawe Hospital in Manchester, UK. The mortality while waiting for coronary artery bypass surgery (CABG) in New Zealand was 2.6%. In the Netherlands, where waits were somewhat shorter, mortality was 0.6% for CABG and 1.4% for combined CABG and valve surgery. This mortality was despite the usual attempts to categorise patients according to the perceived risk of waiting for surgery. A previous study from the UK 3 reported a cardiac surgery waiting list mortality of a similar magnitude to the New Zealand publication.​

Things have probably moved on in the twelve years since that op. ed. was written.

For example, the average UK wait for CABG from 2005-2009 fell to 57 days.
 
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Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

Far less than people without insurance in the US. People may have to wait, but at least they have a very good chance of treatment, which you dont have if you dont have insurance or money in the US.... and with medicaid/care going out the window when the GOP wins, then those numbers will skyrocket.
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

Military Medical is a lot like a socialized system - we all know the issues, there. On top of an outright lack of care when it's needed there's a larger lack of proper diagnosis.
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

Don't know, and don't care. Feelings don't write a blank check.
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

Wow people with heart problems die!!! You gotta be ****ing kidding me!

Did you have to wait 175 days for your surgery? This isn't people dying from complications, it's people dying while sitting on a surgical waiting list waiting for the surgery that's been approved after going through many consultations. How long did you have to wait for your surgery after your surgeons decided that you needed surgery? You mentioned a heart transplant, which I imagine complicate scheduling because of the need for a donor heart, but still, how long was your wait?

Do you imagine that 2.6% of patients in the US die while waiting for surgery?
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

Those numbers are twelve years out of date. Living in the past does nothing to give a point to the claims.

The US death rate for children on the heart transplant waiting list was 17%. Shocking isn't it?
 
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Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

Those numbers are twelve years out of date. Living in the past does nothing to give a point to the claims.

The issue isn't what the waiting lists are at this very moment. Waiting lists are a function of resources that are applied to the problem. Deployment of resources fluctuate. You'd have to be daft to presume that never again will wait lists ever be that long, especially as UK society is aging at a more rapid pace than American society and with an aging population comes greater levels of utilization of health infrastructure and a greater tax load on a smaller base of working taxpayers.

US healthcare is expensive because there is no cost control in the system and we don't have a central rationer.

If the US moved to replicate Canadian levels of MRI machines in our hospitals, of our 10,000 machines across the nation we'd have to scrap over 8,400 of them to bring us down to Canadian levels. With fewer machines comes greater utilization rates per machine and wait lists in order to get screenings. That saves a lot of money but the trade-off is more waiting.

You pointing to wait times today doesn't make your cases better, for that to happen you need to show that centralized rationing has been eliminated. It's always easy to gimmick the numbers on wait-times for time-critical procedures, like heart surgery - throw more resources at cardiac care and deprive other health sectors of resources in order to keep the overall budget in an acceptable range. The problem is that while heart patients get more timely surgeries, waiting on 90 days instead of 175 days to be wheeled into for a bypass, other people are suffering for longer periods with infirmities which are not life-threatening but do seriously hamper their ability to function - waiting 400 days for a hip replacement, say.
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

The question is framed in the present tense. Cherrypicking some figure from history and presenting it as current is committing a terminological inexactitude of a gross nature.
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

So, I was looking around:

Major Findings:
• One-year mortality rates following myocardial infarction were virtually identical for both countries
(34.3% U.S. vs. 34.4% Canada).
• U.S. patients were far more likely to undergo expensive and invasive treatments such as coronary
angiography (34.9% U.S. vs. 6.7% Canada); percutaneous transluminal coronary angioplasty
(11.7% U.S. vs. 1.5% Canada); and coronary-artery bypass surgery (10.6% U.S. vs. 1.4% Canada).

(snip)

Canadians had lower rates of unadjusted in-hospital mortality (1.4% Canada vs. 2.2% U.S.). There
was no difference between the countries after controlling for demographic and clinical differences.
• The average length of a hospital stay in Canada was 16.8% longer
• Adjusted costs of CABG in the U.S. were 82% higher than in Canada
• Average in-hospital treatment costs were nearly twice as much in the U.S. ($20,673 U.S. vs. $10,373
Canada / Median: $16,036 U.S. vs. $7,880 Canada).
• Administrative costs consumed more of the total cost of treatment in the U.S. (38.2% of total
costs in the U.S. vs. 31.7% in Canada).

http://www.pnhp.org/single_payer_resources/CAN_Comparison_Sheet.pdf

Also in that article:

Major Findings:
• After adjustment for the case mix and treatment variables, the mortality rate for end-stage renal
disease was 47% higher in the U.S. than in Canada.
• Canadian patients are twice as likely to receive kidney transplants as are Americans. (Note: this
likely reflects the profitability of continuing dialysis rather than performing a transplant.)
• Adjusted monthly costs of treatment were $503 higher in the U.S. (Largely due to the far higher
rates of dialysis).
• Fifty-seven percent (57%) of U.S. patients had reprocessed dialyzers used on them, compared
with 0.0% of Canadian patients.
• The hospital admission rate among U.S. renal disease patients was 41% lower (Note: this is mainly
because of the far lower transplant rate among U.S. patients).
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

It is hard to answer this question with numbers. I can tell you that socialized medicine, as it was in the former Soviet Union, was not all too bad. THey had a good diagnostic methods and elementary aid was free and available to all. Of course, doctors were poorly equipped technologically and expensive, usually rarely occurring treatments, were available only to high ranking in the society people, but those factors did not contribute much in the mortality rate of population at large. I took my wife to a general health check up in our hospital. She spent there about an hour and result was good: "You are OK". The total bill was over $2000. Our coverage was not enough, I had to cover much of the bill. I firmly convinced that the government must become involved to control the corruption and end money driven medicine. Where is Hypocrates oath? It is thrown out.
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

I don't know if this guy was on a waiting list, but he did have access to health care, as some here have pointed out, via the ER. Unfortunately, afterward he had to make a medical decision based on finances.
When his face started swelling and his head began to ache, Willis went to the emergency room, where he received prescriptions for antibiotics and pain medications. Willis couldn't afford both, so he chose the pain medications.

The tooth infection spread, causing his brain to swell. He died Tuesday.


Without Insurance, 24-year-old Dies of Toothache - ABC News
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

I don't know if this guy was on a waiting list, but he did have access to health care, as some here have pointed out, via the ER. Unfortunately, afterward he had to make a medical decision based on finances.

And so that's the fault of him not having insurance?

He couldn't afford both - so he chose the option that would have maybe alleviated his discomfort but it didn't address the infection which is what ultimately killed him. Taking care of the infection would have also taken care of the discomfort.

He had a choice - and could have made the right one and survived.
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

And so that's the fault of him not having insurance?

He couldn't afford both - so he chose the option that would have maybe alleviated his discomfort but it didn't address the infection which is what ultimately killed him. Taking care of the infection would have also taken care of the discomfort.

He had a choice - and could have made the right one and survived.

Thank God we live in a nation where a bad decision about a 12 year olds' tooth infection leads to death

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Dental/story?id=2925584&page=1
 
Re: How Many People Die Per Year Under Socialized Healthcare For Being "On Waiting Li

I don't understand what the point is. The guy didn't have $80 for a tooth extraction and he died. Seems like he could have taken something to the pawn shop and got $80. Or cut a couple of lawns for that $80. Or asked his family or friends for the money. He made a poor decision and paid the price.

The story could have equally been that he didn't bother to buckle his seat belt and died in a car accident. It just wouldn't have made the news.

Or it could have been that he didn't have the money to replace that bad tire on his car which caused a car wreck, or that he didn't have money to pay his electric bill and he froze to death. Or that he starved to death because he didnt have grocery money. Or that he didn't have money for ammo and he died after an intruder broke into his home. Or that he lost his house due to foreclosure and died from exposure.

Terrible things happen to people who don't have any money. It sucks. But is the tax payer supposed to give everyone everything that they desire?

heck, the guy could have pulled his own tooth. He could have asked for charity. he could have got a buddy to pull the tooth. he didn't, its a tragic story, but so what.
 
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