• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

House Democrats to pass plan to reopen government Thursday

My question was, what are they offering in the way of a compromise? Sticking with trump’s demand is not compromise. Trump’s fans are, essentially, demanding that Dems capitulate and give him everything he demands without getting anything in return.

I suspect what will happen is that in the end, there will be a compromise where the Dem's will offer the Daca that was pass bipartisan last year, but Trump nixed over something else.
 
What could be passed or not is pretty obvious. Idiots are sticking to party lines just like the last 20 years.

McConnell will always slavishly stick with the far right, even alt. There really was never much hope he would cross any isles, even within his own party. Trump threw down the gauntlet on the budget. It was a stupid move and he handled it badly (big shock). Problem is that now the parties will align and vote as a group. This shutdown could have serious legs.

Personally, I don't support the wall, but at this point, I'd rather see the dems give in and gear up for a big 2 year battle than start playing games on day 1.

No. If the dems give in - then what?? Remember the book, "If you Give a Mouse a Cookie?"
 
That "safety net" bait is more available to their offspring due to instant birthright citizenship, although simply living where the roads are paved and toilets flush is a draw. The primary bait is employment which pays as much for one day of work as one week of work pays in their homelands.

Are you Native American??? If not, someone in your family was an immigrant.
 
No. If the dems give in - then what?? Remember the book, "If you Give a Mouse a Cookie?"

Pick a better ground than the budget to stand ground. First fight out of the gate is over less than a tenth of a percent of the budget after midterms changed cast and balance. Just not a good hill to die on.

I'm all for them fighting Trump tooth and nail. Just like I supported right doing to Obama. That's what they were promising when they got elected. I just wish anyone out there in DC were smart enough to choose battles instead of fighting every single one till something breaks.

And if you think beating Trump on this would stop him asking for more cookies, you haven't been watching him.
 
In essence, Trump is playing the age old protection racket. He is threatening catastrophe unless paid in full. it is the tactic of a gangster. In order to work, a protection racket depends upon fear, intimidation and the lack of enforcement of laws by the government. As long as responsible parties whose job it is to protect and serve go along with the protection racket, the shop keeper will have to pay or have his legs broken. Protection rackets exist in corrupt systems, they cannot survive in lawful systems at all. The parallel with a racket is easy to make here. The Senate and the House are intended to serve as the protectors of the law and the people themselves against a rogue executive. That is a key part of the separation of powers. When the House flipped, we regained some power but without the Senate, the executive is still unrestrained. How does this usually end?

In the worst case, the situation descends into chaos forcing the victims of this racket to organize and overthrow the authorities. This is how revolutions begin. When institutions fail, the people sooner or later prevail. The risk is that what emerges out of this chaos is unpredictable. Witness what happened in Venezuela, in Turkey, in Poland and elsewhere.

In the best case, the authorities realize the peril they have created by ignoring the threat and they act before it spins out of control.

The ultimatum presented by Trump to the House is a typical protection racket tactic. Do exactly what I say and I will not destroy everything you care about. As long as you agree, catastrophe can be averted for now. But then the ante gets bigger. Winners in these gambits are never satisfied especially when they succeed. The next demand will be for something even more costly. The same tactic will be presented and if the reaction is the same, it too will succeed until such time as we descend into the worst case scenario.

This is the game Trump and the Senate are playing with all of us. A minority government demanding an unpopular reward under conditions that potentially affect every single aspect of life will sooner or later create a crisis. The good people of Great Britain are facing this as we speak with Brexit. The same logic was sold to angry and uninformed Brits leading up to the referendum. Now they are facing a future that could involve the very disintegration of Great Britain along with economic ruin.
 
Are you Native American??? If not, someone in your family was an immigrant.

Immigrant and illegal immigrant are not synonymous. Ask some Native Americans if they think that border security (or lack thereof) was historically important.
 
Why is it DOA at the Senate when they already supported this just a few months ago?

Likely McConnell is loathe to try to put it through. He thought they had a deal and then........................nothin.
 
Because, as has been posted, and I know you know, McConnell has said that he doesn't plan to bring anything to the floor that doesn't have a chance at passing, or that the President won't sign...So, stunts like this, and a constant slew of BS investigation is all we can expect from these people in the house for two years....Certainly no business for the American people will be done.

Don't tell me, let me guess. It'll be the dems fault. Am I right?
 
So far, from the tweets I've seen and words I've heard him speak, Trump has said there can be no compromise, he demands money to build a small portion of his wall.

I asked a couple of weeks ago for reputable studies showing that building a wall is a cost effective strategy for limiting illegal immigration and drug smuggling. I never saw any links, did I miss them? Or are you for spending $5b on a monument to Trump because it makes The Donald happy?

5 billion is just a drop in the bucket - estimates are between 25 - 30 billion.
 
Hmmmm....From your own article....

"Congress enacted a law capping pay for top federal executives in 2013 and renewed it each year. The raises will occur because that cap will expire without legislative action by Saturday"

Sounds like this is on Pelosi....

She's been in office one day?? Really - suddenly it's her fault?? Amazing how that happens so fast.:spin::spin::spin:
 
That's simply not true....It has been gone over many times in here...If you want my honest feeling on that, I think that Trump should have hammered the deal for $25 billion for 1.8 million dreamers, and dealt with the democrats poison pill of "chain migration" and visa lottery immigration with this budget....But, none the less it takes two...And Democrats were just as dishonest in their negotiations as always.


That is absolutely true. They had a deal 25billion for the wall and to fix DACA. Again Trump said yes and Kevin McCarthy and Stephen Miller got in his ear. OOPS no deal. This from the master negotiator?? :roll:

No, that's what Democrats keep saying...Schumer says 'not one penny'. Pelosi says she'll give a dollar but that's it....yeah, that's what we need, jokes.



Democrats do everyday with their actions.



"The right thing?" What the hell does that mean?

Sad you don't know.
 
In a way you're right.

Senate Majority Leader McConnell is trying to have it both ways. He's trying to project himself as an efficient Senate Majority Leader while also conveying a unified stance to party. By refusing to put any House bill before the Senate that doesn't include funding for Pres. Trump's southern border wall, McConnell is trying to show that the Senate is efficient in (Senate) governance (i.e., why bring something to the Senate floor for a vote if the President will only veto it). But on the other hand, he's also trying to show that Senate Republicans are with their party's leader - the POTUS - on this particular issue. The problem is, they aren't with him at all and Spkr Pelosi illustrated as much by throwing their own Senate bill right back in their faces and daring them to reject it. In effect, that's exactly what Sen. McConnell is doing by not bringing the House bill that has the same Senate provisions in it up for a vote. This mere act plays right into Trump's hands and shows he can control the Senate.





I would like to address the two issues highlighted above.

First up, the part in bold. You had it right in your first post that this fight over funding for the border wall is really about power. The House and Senate would agree to any level of funding if this wasn't about feeding Trump's ego. Everyone knows the southern border is relatively safe. There is no threat of impending breach from an enemy known or unknown attempting to storm the country from the south. Unfortunately, the way the President has phrased the immigration issue along the southern border, people are wrongly believing the "national security" hoax when the issue isn't about "a national security under threat from a hostile force", but instead an issue of "cultural identity and economics". That's what Republicans have been saying for years even before Trump became President. Why did that change? Answer: Because Trump changed the narrative to his liking.

It's sad that Trump's supporters (and many others on the right) have begun to believe the hype. I'd agree with them if there was an exchange of gun fire between migrant forces armed with semi-auto rifles, armored vehicles, etc., and our security forces along the southern border (i.e., Border Patrol, National Guard, ICE, DEA, etc.), but that's not the case. A few irate migrants throwing stones does not constitute a breach in national security. It simply represents an irritating situation (that could escalate into a chaotic situation) along our southern border and nothing more.

Next, the underlined portions. A cost analysis on border security would be a good step, but what metrics would one use? Without incorporating immigration reform policy into the mix, how would one determine if any of the technical counter-measures would save money let alone prove effective? Your proposal is interesting, I just don't see how it gets done or proves anything. Trump has made it clear he doesn't care about any border security measures that don't include funding his border infrastructure project. So, anything the Democrat-controlled House puts forward would be rejected out of hand. The only way this ends is if people who are grossly impacted by this shutdown make their voices heard. The longer this goes on and the more the Dems are able to show they are trying to do what's right for those most effected by this closure (not to mention if the economy continues to show weakness), the worse it gets for Pres. Trump. And right now, he's not winning.

:rock:rock:rock
 
Pick a better ground than the budget to stand ground. First fight out of the gate is over less than a tenth of a percent of the budget after midterms changed cast and balance. Just not a good hill to die on.

I'm all for them fighting Trump tooth and nail. Just like I supported right doing to Obama. That's what they were promising when they got elected. I just wish anyone out there in DC were smart enough to choose battles instead of fighting every single one till something breaks.

And if you think beating Trump on this would stop him asking for more cookies, you haven't been watching him.

LOL you have a point on that one. He's too used to his temper tantrums working.
 
Immigrant and illegal immigrant are not synonymous. Ask some Native Americans if they think that border security (or lack thereof) was historically important.

Now we're putting them in interment camps - I supposed you're fine with that. They aren't being allowed to LEGALLY enter the country at all. But - yeah I know - pesky facts and all that.
 
She doesn't care enough?? Trump - the "Great Negotiator" couldn't make a deal but SHE doesn't care enough. They bs is amazing to me.

Trump is no "negotiator". What he thinks is negotiating is actually extortion. He was born with a silver spoon up his butt and all his "negotiations" were from a position of power over who he was negotiating with so basically, he's always held all the cards in his fake negotiations. So like now, it's just extortion. Today he said he'd keep the government closed for months or years if he isn't given what he wants.

He's a mental midget with only bully tactics. And the fuel behind tactic just ran out.
 
Now we're putting them in interment camps - I supposed you're fine with that. They aren't being allowed to LEGALLY enter the country at all. But - yeah I know - pesky facts and all that.

Yep, the world's population is not allowed to enter and permanently remain in the US simply because they wish to. To decide which of them may or may not do so we have border security and immigration laws. Pesky facts, and all that.
 
Yep, the world's population is not allowed to enter and permanently remain in the US simply because they wish to. To decide which of them may or may not do so we have border security and immigration laws. Pesky facts, and all that.

Who is arguing that we should have open borders with no immigration laws? No one. I suggest you stop watching Fox News or listening to your favorite right wing radio host and join the rational world.
 
Who is arguing that we should have open borders with no immigration laws? No one. I suggest you stop watching Fox News or listening to your favorite right wing radio host and join the rational world.

My reply was a response to a claim that the US was not allowing legal immigration ergo illegal immigration was the only option available to folks wishing to enter or remain in the US. That had nothing to do with open borders.
 
Back
Top Bottom