Heaven - Are Non-Christians There?

[sebastiansdreams]

I think it is perhaps more logical to think ALL of our actions and decisions effect the rest of our eternity rather than just one. You think none of our decisions grant merit when it comes to eternity accept only the one of if you accept christ or not.

This is something we can argue that I don't think either of us will ever concede. Shall we move on?

If got is both omiscent and omnipotent, wouldn't he know long before he created us that we were going to choose christ or not? Why go along with the ruse of humanity and life and sinners and christians?

Because He allowed man free will to love Him or not. Perhaps He did know all along that we would move away from Him at some time or another in history. But perhaps He did so to allow us that we make our own choice and follow Him. Now, are our lives predestined? That is a debate that has existed for as long as the Church has been around. I think no. I think there are many paths that God knows we could take, and allows us to take them at our own desgression. I believe He has an ultimate will for us, and reveals that to us as we go along, but it is also our choice to diverge from that, and He is also aware of those consequences as well. He wants us to follow His will for us, but allows us the choice of not doing so. Just as an earthly father may allow his child freedom to make their own choices, but will still wish that they obey and love him and in the end follow his will for their life.
I would would also disagree that either of our arguments is more logical. It is simply a question of which direction God actually went with it. Because, as I said, your actions on earth have consequences on earth, there is no reason for them to be echoed for all of eternity. But, my reason for believing this is based on scripture I honestly believe was inspired by God. How else would anyone begin to create such a system out of their own mind? I am not saying it is superior, just that if you choose to dissagree with it it is not I that you should discuss about it, because I certainly did not create the idea.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

However, is THAT what is meant when Jesus says that the road to Heaven come through Him. Catholics teach that there is a purgatory. Why can't someone who lived a good, sincere life, but never accepted Jesus, perhaps because he/she had never heard of Him, accept the truth of Jesus at that point. That would still be consistant with the notion that we get to Heaven through Jesus, just not in the way that Protestants understand it.

What the Bible does discuss is a period where those who were not given the chance to accept the sacrifice due to whatever circumstance will be given that chance again. However, where I dissagree with you, and the idea of Purgatory, is that it is still based on good deeds during life. The Bible speaks nothing of this period of grace being based on the merit of good actions. It only says that they will be given a chance to accept Christ as their savior. The Catholic Church added the part about good acts resuting in pergutory. As I understand it, the Bible says that those who did not have a chance to accept Christ in their life will be given that chance during this period... regardless of their deeds on earth.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

What have the Catholics changed about the faith? Protestants have changed the BIBLE! How can you have faith in a written document that men have altered? It was the Catholics who compiled the Bible at the Council of Carthage in A.D. 397, and Martin Luther changed it by taking out some books and chapters, and changing the wording of some crucial phrases in the Bible.

Not Protestants in the general sense. Rather it was Martin Luther that chose not to change the Bible, but rather to simply translate it into common tongue. The Church at the time had a monopoly on the teachings of Christ. The gospel had changed from a word of mouth account spreading like wildfire from common Christian to the next into a message that only the more educated men, only those chosen by the church, could translate and tell to the common man. Luther found this as a very negative thing. He believed that the word of God, the gospel, the scriptures, ought to be accessible to the common German. He wanted to allow men and women to be able to read for themselves the messages of God. He wanted for a man or woman not to only be able to go to church to find the word of God, but rather for them to be able to read it and know it for themselves. Catholics themselves currently use various language translations, and every Christian has a Bible in their house. This would not be the case if it were not for the acts of Martin Luther. If you are referring to the Apochrapha that has been left out of the Protestant Bible, I actually have a Douy Rheims Bible lying right here beside me... But realistically, it is obvious why these books were left out of the translated Bibles. While they are good historical accounts (minus some a few contraversial tales such as Daniel and the dragon), they add nothing to the Bible that is not already covered in the rest of its scriptures. If you dissagree, give me one message that the Apocrapha contains that the rest of the Bible does not already portray in some form or another. Or give one thing from the Apocrapha that would change the lives or faith of a Christian if it were added? And what words was it that Luther changed that were so crucial to the message of Christ that once they were altered, the Bible simply became void? The reality is that Luther was in love with God, and he wanted his passion for Christ to be shared by everyone. Regardless of their ability to read Latin or not. You ask how I can have faith in a book that was "altered" by humans? Because the book was written by humans. I do not doubt that God was very present in their hearts while they were composing the books. I do not doubt that God was influential in their completeness and accuracy. But why would He not be present when Martin Luther was translating the Bible? Why, if Luther's intention was to spread the message of God, would God not allow him to also give a correct and guided interpretation?

It is the Protestants who started this notion of sola scriptura, which was a MAJOR change in the faith, a much greater one than you could EVER pin on Catholics. In fact, there is good justification to claim that sola scriptura is heretical based on the fact that Jesus said that he would leave the Holy Spirit. However, the notion that ALL religious truth comes from the Bible (the cornerstone of sola scriptura) is directly at odds with the idea of the Holy Spirit remaining behind to guide the flock (which we belive is done through the Holy Catholic Church.)

Was it not first the Catholics who compiled the canon? Was it not they who translated all of it into latin and then made it only accessible for those ordained by the Church to preach from it? Those are pretty major changes in Christianity if you ask me. It went from an oral tradition spread to everyone to a monopolized teaching by a single heirarchy. I certainly do not believe that the Bible is the only way in which religious truth can come to us. I think that holding a personal relationship with God, and allowing the Holy Spirit (as an intity which physically inhabits you) to lead to you truth and revelation. So the idea of sola scriptura is not a commonly accepted doctorine among the Protestantnism I have been exposed to. But, on the other side of the coin, I do begin to question those who begin teaching seperate lessons that those of the Bible. I believe that on a personal level, the Holy Spirit leads us all to revelation and truth, but I simply have a hard to subscribing to teachings that are created by historically flawed and abused heiarchy that claims to be the authority on God's biddings. I believe that any man that is honestly willing to be led by God will be. But it is historical fact that the Church has not only abused its station, but it has been decietful and political.

Furthermore, Jesus said that Peter was to be the rock of His Church. Peter was the first Bishop of Rome.l

Yes, and Peter proved himself the cornerstone of all of Christianity. The Church (not the Catholic Church, but the unity of all Christians) is due to the efforts of Peter and his friends. However, Christ said nothing of their being an appointed lineage that was to follow Peter. And I certainly argue that it was never the will of Christ to allow the Church to administer the gospel only as it sees fit. If the Church was originally right in this matter, why is it that now every devout Catholic has their own version of the Bible sitting in their home so that they too may understand the teachings of Christ?

 

[Arch Enemy]

I've personally lost all faith in the Catholic church:

It's now more like an organized government than an actual Church.

Reasons For Hating The Catholic Church
1) They've admitted to hiding important texts and information about the Christian religion, why hide something of such value?

2) Pope Pius XII condemned the fact that England and France didn't ally their selves with Germany against Russia.

3) Pope Pius XII wouldn't excommunicate Hitler, he'd rather believe that his lord wouldn't save him if he was attacked by the real Enemy.

4) He had his subjects to give out death notes to any Priest who rose up and fought against the Nazi Regime.

5) Pope Pius XII ignored cries:

In the spring of 1940, the Chief Rabbi of Palestine, Isaac Herzog, asked the papal Secretary of State, Cardinal Luigi Maglione to intercede to keep Jews in Spain from being deported to Germany. He later made a similar request for Jews in Lithuania. The papacy did nothing.(5)

Within the Pope's own church, Cardinal Theodor Innitzer of Vienna told Pius XII about Jewish deportations in 1941. In 1942, the Slovakian charge d'affaires, a position under the supervision of the Pope, reported to Rome that Slovakian Jews were being systematically deported and sent to death camps.(6)

In October 1941, the Assistant Chief of the U.S. delegation to the Vatican, Harold Tittman, asked the Pope to condemn the atrocities. The response came that the Holy See wanted to remain "neutral," and that condemning the atrocities would have a negative influence on Catholics in German-held lands.(7)

In late August 1942, after more than 200,000 Ukrainian Jews had been killed, Ukrainian Metropolitan Andrej Septyckyj wrote a long letter to the Pope, referring to the German government as a regime of terror and corruption, more diabolical than that of the Bolsheviks. The Pope replied by quoting verses from Psalms and advising Septyckyj to "bear adversity with serene patience."(8)

On September 18, 1942, Monsignor Giovanni Battista Montini, the future Pope Paul VI, wrote, "The massacres of the Jews reach frightening proportions and forms."(9) Yet, that same month when Myron Taylor, U.S. representative to the Vatican, warned the Pope that his silence was endangering his moral prestige, the Secretary of State responded on the Pope's behalf that it was impossible to verify rumors about crimes committed against the Jews.(10)

Wladislaw Raczkiewicz, president of the Polish government-in-exile, appealed to the Pope in January 1943 to publicly denounce Nazi violence. Bishop Preysing of Berlin did the same, at least twice. Pius XII refused.(11)

6) Though he was aware of the situation the Jews were facing, as early as January 1941.

7) Pope Pius XII forced the baptizing of Jewish Children and never returning them to their parents!


I could go on and on and on and on, but this is enough evidence for me to not like the Catholic Church.

Source

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

I've personally lost all faith in the Catholic church:

It's now more like an organized government than an actual Church.

Reasons For Hating The Catholic Church
1) They've admitted to hiding important texts and information about the Christian religion, why hide something of such value?

2) Pope Pius XII condemned the fact that England and France didn't ally their selves with Germany against Russia.

3) Pope Pius XII wouldn't excommunicate Hitler, he'd rather believe that his lord wouldn't save him if he was attacked by the real Enemy.

4) He had his subjects to give out death notes to any Priest who rose up and fought against the Nazi Regime.

5) Pope Pius XII ignored cries:

6) Though he was aware of the situation the Jews were facing, as early as January 1941.

7) Pope Pius XII forced the baptizing of Jewish Children and never returning them to their parents!

I could go on and on and on and on, but this is enough evidence for me to not like the Catholic Church.

Well then, by the same standards, you'd have to stop believeing in the good ol' U.S. of A which did NOTHING to help the Jews being slaugtered in the holocaust, despite having the oportunity to do so (i.e. accepting refugees). And this is the strongest nation on earth, arguably even at that time.

The Roman Church had no political power. By record, the Vatican is the smallest nation on earth, with no military force except for a few guys wearing ugly pajamas guarding the Pope. What on earth were they supposed to do about a juggernaut like Nazi Germany?

Condemn Hitler? Excommunicate him? Like doing so woul have any bearing on that animal. Think people, when you're in a position of weakness, you don't try to play the bully -- it would be laughable, and would give you no results.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

I agree completely with Deus.

And it also seems odd that most of your "reasons for hating the catholic church" are stemmed directly from the actions of ONE man. That seems a little unfair to "hate" a whole religous faith for the decisions made by Pope Pious XII

 

[sebastiansdreams]

Again I emphasize that hatred is never productive. Love thy neighbor, remember? My point was to explain the reasons I have chosen to follow the Protestant faith, not give an open invitation for Catholic bashing.

 

[Mixed View]

to get to heaven you must believe and love Jesus, the son of God.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

to get to heaven you must believe and love Jesus, the son of God.

How do you know? Why must you love Him?

 

[Arch Enemy]

Well then, by the same standards, you'd have to stop believeing in the good ol' U.S. of A which did NOTHING to help the Jews being slaugtered in the holocaust, despite having the oportunity to do so (i.e. accepting refugees)

I believe that MANY countries and people didn't know about the genocide of the Jews in WWII until the information became public more towards the end.

And this is the strongest nation on earth, arguably even at that time.

No we weren't.
We had to begin mass production to enter into this war.. people left their real lives to enjoy the labor of building weapons of war.
I believe Japan and Nazi Germany were the two strongest, Germany only lost because of really bad luck and poor decision making on Hitler's part.

The Roman Church had no political power. By record, the Vatican is the smallest nation on earth, with no military force except for a few guys wearing ugly pajamas guarding the Pope. What on earth were they supposed to do about a juggernaut like Nazi Germany?

The reason why the Roman Church had no Political power was becaused Hitler and Pius signed an agreement that the Catholic Priests could still teach the Germany people about their religion, in return the Church didn't have political powers in Germany.

Condemn Hitler? Excommunicate him? Like doing so woul have any bearing on that animal. Think people, when you're in a position of weakness, you don't try to play the bully -- it would be laughable, and would give you no results.

They pretty much considered their own religion false. Like David vs. Goliath, you're supposed to have faith that the lord will deliver you from the horror and tragedy.
So you're telling me that the biggest religious figure in the world didn't have faith in his own god, how scary.

 

[echnaton]

According to Dante's "Divina Comedia" good people who haven't been baptised
live in a special space at the entrance of hell. Homer and the Greek philosophers live there.
In reality I don't believe for a second that being baptised helps.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

According to Dante's "Divina Comedia" good people who haven't been baptised
live in a special space at the entrance of hell. Homer and the Greek philosophers live there.
In reality I don't believe for a second that being baptised helps.

Yes, but he begins the Divina Comedia by stating that it is fiction.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

I believe that MANY countries and people didn't know about the genocide of the Jews in WWII until the information became public more towards the end.

We (the United States) knew. By refusing to admit entry to the small number of Jews who were able to get out of Europe, were we not complicit? How about the government's rejection of plans to bomb the rail lines leading to the concentration camps, even though most of the genocide occurred after we entered the war?

No we weren't.
We had to begin mass production to enter into this war.. people left their real lives to enjoy the labor of building weapons of war.
I believe Japan and Nazi Germany were the two strongest, Germany only lost because of really bad luck and poor decision making on Hitler's part.

We were able to fight a world war on two fronts, the Germans weren't.

The reason why the Roman Church had no Political power was becaused Hitler and Pius signed an agreement that the Catholic Priests could still teach the Germany people about their religion, in return the Church didn't have political powers in Germany.

No. The Church lost its land, army and political muscle in 1870 in the reunification of Italy when the Papal States, including Rome, were forceably taken. The Vatican city-state only was carved out pursuant to the Lateran treaty with Mussolini in 1929. Thus the Pope only had a tiny parcel of land, defended by guards in their technicolor pajamas. So do you really think that this postage-stamp state had any bargaining power with Nazi Germany?

They pretty much considered their own religion false. Like David vs. Goliath, you're supposed to have faith that the lord will deliver you from the horror and tragedy.
So you're telling me that the biggest religious figure in the world didn't have faith in his own god, how scary.

Who cares if the Pope didn't have enough faith in his deity? Lack thereof does not make the guy a war criminal.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Yes, but he begins the Divina Comedia by stating that it is fiction.

Maybe the "Truth in Advertising" laws should require the same disclaimer at the beginning of the Bible...

 

[sebastiansdreams]

Maybe the "Truth in Advertising" laws should require the same disclaimer at the beginning of the Bible...

Hey, we've been over this. Just because you don't have the faith to see it does not mean it does not exist.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Though faith does not necessarily mean existence.

Remember, the earth used to be flat. We KNEW it was flat. There was no question.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

Though faith does not necessarily mean existence.

Remember, the earth used to be flat. We KNEW it was flat. There was no question.

That's right, but then again the earth being flat did not have a life altering affect on me personally, but Christ has.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

What is the number these days... 2 billion?

I'll give you three billion just for the benefit of the doubt.

3 billion out of 6 billion people on this world have not have their life altered by christ.

Half the world has faith that you are correct.

A few hundred years ago the entire world had faith that if you go far enough, you will fall off of the world.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

What is the number these days... 2 billion?

I'll give you three billion just for the benefit of the doubt.

3 billion out of 6 billion people on this world have not have their life altered by christ.

Half the world has faith that you are correct.

A few hundred years ago the entire world had faith that if you go far enough, you will fall off of the world.

Precisely. And how did we find out it was not? Through experience. Someone attempted to sail around the world and found out, hey, it's not flat. How do I know that God exists? Experience. I was part of the three billion that did not believe. And then I experienced Christ, and now I am on the other side of it. You see, one dissadvantage of non-Christians is that many, if not most of them, have never experienced life with Christ in it, but all Christians have at some point experienced life without Christ, and they made the choice of a different path.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

That's quite an interesting point. I myself was born into a southern baptist family.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

But that does not make you a Christian. Accepting Christ must be a concious and geniune decision. You cannot be born a Christian, you can only later choose to accept Christ as your savior and Lord.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Ohh I quite agree. Religion is not something one is born with, and I truly, at one point, did believe in Jesus with all of my heart. Truly.

But when your thirteen, faith and curiosity can have some pretty brutal battles. I gave up on christianity because I was tired of being afraid of hell.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

Ohh I quite agree. Religion is not something one is born with, and I truly, at one point, did believe in Jesus with all of my heart. Truly.

But when your thirteen, faith and curiosity can have some pretty brutal battles. I gave up on christianity because I was tired of being afraid of hell.

You know what? That is exactly the reason I left the church? That is the reason I waited so long to accept Christ. Because I could not understand nor appreciate the idea of hell. And then finally, I just broke down and studied all of it. And I found out that hell isn't really portrayed in the Bible the way it is portrayed by everyone else (including some churches). That's when I started to understand more about Christ. And then finally, I realized that none of my knowledge was supportable. None of it could be proved, none of it was logical... but then I tried it... and it changed my life.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Congradulations. My personal belief is simply that what works for you may or may not work for me.

 

[carolyn-]

Because I could not understand nor appreciate the idea of hell.

*Uh, yea. More like we don't even know if it exist or not..

This is a very touchy subject. But there is really not much 'substance' to prove this topic on whether Heaven accepts non-Christian or whether ther are actually any there.

It is to your own belief, your own religion .. and you follow what you believe in.