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Heaven - Are Non-Christians There?

26 X World Champs

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I'm wondering what people's views are on this subject? Some theoretical questions:

For example, did Heaven only open after Christ was born?

What about those who knew God but died in Old Testament times?

How about those to whom the Gospel is never preached, or who, due to prior prejudice or misinformation, are unable to understand it when they hear it?

Or those who live a life of good works while practicing some other religion (or none)?

How about those who seek God’s mercy while practicing some other religion (or none)?
 

Arch Enemy

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I feel that if you know and accept god as almighty and believe Jesus as a prophet or savior then you'll be granted eternal life. There's big debates about the people of the old testament and those who haven't been able to learn about Christ. I personally feel that Islam and Christianity are basically the same religion seeing as they have both a god and a prophet, though their word for god is "Allah" does that make it any less than our word for "god" ?

I think you can practice other religions as long as you believe in Christianity to be the reigning one, there aren't really many monotheistic religions... because Buddhism is nothing more than great life Philosophies.
 

Urethra Franklin

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Perhaps the religious among you can explain this.
When people die, religious folk are always spouting off banal platitiudes like "he's in a better place" etc. and when it's a partner of somebody already dead it's "oh they're together now". Personally I think that's all BS, when you're dead you're dead and there's no afterlife, but how do you religious folk explain this:

My dad's first wife died. Presulably, by your logic, as a good christian woman, she went to heaven. My dad then married my mum, which the church allows. Now he's dead, presumably he's gone to heaven too, so he's with his first wife. Now what'll happen when my mum troops up? Are they expected to share him? Do they go and slug it out on some divine Jerry Springer show? What?
 
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sebastiansdreams

26 X World Champs said:
I'm wondering what people's views are on this subject? Some theoretical questions:

For example, did Heaven only open after Christ was born?

What about those who knew God but died in Old Testament times?

How about those to whom the Gospel is never preached, or who, due to prior prejudice or misinformation, are unable to understand it when they hear it?

Or those who live a life of good works while practicing some other religion (or none)?

How about those who seek God’s mercy while practicing some other religion (or none)?
You're asking some pretty deep theological questions that have been debated for two thousand years now, and are still debated... and there's a really good reason why: no one knows for sure.
Here are some of the theories that I have been introduced to and think are more likely than others I have heard, but again this is all theory theology...

Firstly, you have to remember that in the OT there was no mention of how one might get into a heavenly afterlife. In the OT, heaven was a current place in which Adonia and His angels reside. Only in the New Testament does Jesus say there is a place for us in heaven, and that to achieve that one must accept Him as savior. Now, that being said: I suppose it is arguable that the gates of heaven only opened up to human souls at the time in which He made His sacrifice, although you remember that Ezekial (?) was taken to heaven before he passed away.
But there are also verses in the NT that suggest that our souls do not descend until Christ returns to earth (this is all in Revelations), so there is a possibility that when Jesus turned to the man on the cross next to Him, and said "today you will join me in paradise", He was speaking of a place that was not heaven at all.
Regarding the OT folk, I have heard it argued that perhaps as long as they held to their covenant with God during their life, then Jesus will speak for them, although I'm not sure we have scriptual evidence of that.
As far as those who never hear the message of Christ's salvation, I do not know their fate, and I do not think that any of us do. The scriptures definitely say that without Christ, no man can enter the kingdom of heaven. And really, for the most part, if there are people in the world who have, by the end of their lives not heard the gospel, is that God's fault or our's as Christians for not going above and beyond to fulfill His commandment to tell the world of His good news? It is impossible to know the fate of those who do not hear the gospel, but to attempt to make a decision either way is speaking for God, and none of us are justified in doing that. It is His kingdom, and He has the absolute right to not let any of us in.
As far as good works: I do not believe it matters how "good" you were in your life. Jesus said that no man is "good" and certainly no one is good enough to deserve to spend eternity with God in His kingdom. So I honestly believe that your actions in life have nothing to do with whether or not you get into heaven, only whether or not you seek the gift of sacrifice that Christ made for you. Good actions make for a good life, not a good eternity.
As far as those seeking God's mercy, that is a tough call. Muslims for example: many of the our devout to their faith. They are well educated and incredibly devoted to it. They seek God to be in their lives. But, either they have heard the gospel or they have not. If they have not heard the gospel, then they fall under the first group, and that is at God's discretion. If they have heard the gospel, then they have heard it, and chosen not to follow it. Granted, they do have prior bias, so is that really a fair call? But many of us have had prior biases before we came to Christ. Many Christians began as aethists, Muslims, Buddhists, and all other types of faiths. So why should those people who did have the faith to make the sacrifice of accepting Christ be no more blessed than those who ignored it and went on with their life? Again, another tough call, and one that only God Himself has the authority and the right to make.
 
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sebastiansdreams

Arch Enemy said:
though their word for god is "Allah" does that make it any less than our word for "god" ?
But what if they are worshiping a completely different God altogether? One that does not actually exist?
 

Arch Enemy

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sebastiansdreams said:
But what if they are worshiping a completely different God altogether? One that does not actually exist?
Prove that our god exists and that their god doesn't? The Catholics have changed too much of our religious beliefs, do you agree that Mary Magdalen was a prostitute?
 

Arch Enemy

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Urethra Franklin said:
Perhaps the religious among you can explain this.
When people die, religious folk are always spouting off banal platitiudes like "he's in a better place" etc. and when it's a partner of somebody already dead it's "oh they're together now". Personally I think that's all BS, when you're dead you're dead and there's no afterlife, but how do you religious folk explain this:

My dad's first wife died. Presulably, by your logic, as a good christian woman, she went to heaven. My dad then married my mum, which the church allows. Now he's dead, presumably he's gone to heaven too, so he's with his first wife. Now what'll happen when my mum troops up? Are they expected to share him? Do they go and slug it out on some divine Jerry Springer show? What?
Franklin you need to have respect for religion even if you don't have faith in your life.

In my beliefs I've been taught that once you go into heaven all pains, needs, wants and material feelings are gone, therefore there will be no need for a relationship in heaven everyone will be content with each other for there is no reason no too.

The saying of they'll be together doesn't mean like it does in society. They want be sleeping in the same bed, instead they'll be together like you are with your friends.
Understand?
 
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sebastiansdreams

Arch Enemy said:
Prove that our god exists and that their god doesn't? The Catholics have changed too much of our religious beliefs, do you agree that Mary Magdalen was a prostitute?
I can't prove it, nor do I have to. I'm just telling you that their God and our God are not the same. I agree that the Catholics have changed a lot about faith, but that is why I am a Protestant and I believe in taking my faith from the Bible, not from the Church. And yes, it is very possible that Mary Magdalen was a prostitute... but what does it matter? The fact is Jesus loved everyone, every prostitute.
 

4theLamb

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26 X World Champs said:
I'm wondering what people's views are on this subject? Some theoretical questions:

For example, did Heaven only open after Christ was born?

What about those who knew God but died in Old Testament times?

How about those to whom the Gospel is never preached, or who, due to prior prejudice or misinformation, are unable to understand it when they hear it?

Or those who live a life of good works while practicing some other religion (or none)?

How about those who seek God’s mercy while practicing some other religion (or none)?
The Bible says in Romans 1 and 2 that all people are without excuse and in Deuteronomy 30 and other places as well. All people went to Sheol before Jesus into either Hell or Abraham's bossom. When Jesus rose He took the righteos of old with Him. The only way to Heaven is Jesus Christ. If you really seek God with all you heart you will find Him. ----John 14:6, Romans 10:9,10
 

4theLamb

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Arch Enemy said:
I feel that if you know and accept god as almighty and believe Jesus as a prophet or savior then you'll be granted eternal life. There's big debates about the people of the old testament and those who haven't been able to learn about Christ. I personally feel that Islam and Christianity are basically the same religion seeing as they have both a god and a prophet, though their word for god is "Allah" does that make it any less than our word for "god" ?

I think you can practice other religions as long as you believe in Christianity to be the reigning one, there aren't really many monotheistic religions... because Buddhism is nothing more than great life Philosophies.
Read: John 14:6, John 6:29; Hebrews 11:6, Acts 10:43

Romans 10:9, 10

Islam and Christianity are very different. Allah is an impersonal god who can change his mind at anytime for any reason while Elohim is personal and does not change. You should probably study both of Islam, Buddhism and Christianity more in depth.

Buddism goes against the the Bible and Jesus. It is not great life philosophies. There is one God and He is the Living Creator God.
 

4theLamb

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sebastiansdreams said:
But what if they are worshiping a completely different God altogether? One that does not actually exist?
Allah is a demon
 

26 X World Champs

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4theLamb said:
Allah is a demon
With all due respect, that is a very prejudicial comment. You have no way of verifying that, and to be blunt, it shows a great disrespect for non-Christians.

None of us know the answers to these questions. We all have our individual beliefs, but to lash out and say that someone else's belief is devil worship is truly and most assuredly wrong! Sorry!
 
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sebastiansdreams

26 X World Champs said:
With all due respect, that is a very prejudicial comment. You have no way of verifying that, and to be blunt, it shows a great disrespect for non-Christians.

None of us know the answers to these questions. We all have our individual beliefs, but to lash out and say that someone else's belief is devil worship is truly and most assuredly wrong! Sorry!
Don't be offended, you're not Muslim, it doesn't apply to you.
 

26 X World Champs

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sebastiansdreams said:
Don't be offended, you're not Muslim, it doesn't apply to you.
Your remark is equally offensive. You claim to be guided by religious principle yet you seem to not feel it is wrong to call Allah a demon? Is that proper? Is that what Christians truly believe? Do you think Allah is a demon?

I am offended by anyone who is prejudiced. I strongly believe that religion is a very personal thing, and that it is 100% wrong to belittle someone simply because of their stated religious belief. That poster, unsolicited, spewed hate towards all Muslims. You have accused me of being Anti-Christian on more than one occasion. Each time I responded by telling you that I am in no way against Christians (or any other religion). What I am against are Christians (or any other religions) where an individual is prejudiced against someone else because of their religious beliefs.

No matter what you could write, there is no defense for writing that Allah is a demon. It sickens me....
 
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sebastiansdreams

26 X World Champs said:
Your remark is equally offensive. You claim to be guided by religious principle yet you seem to not feel it is wrong to call Allah a demon? Is that proper? Is that what Christians truly believe? Do you think Allah is a demon?

I am offended by anyone who is prejudiced. I strongly believe that religion is a very personal thing, and that it is 100% wrong to belittle someone simply because of their stated religious belief. That poster, unsolicited, spewed hate towards all Muslims. You have accused me of being Anti-Christian on more than one occasion. Each time I responded by telling you that I am in no way against Christians (or any other religion). What I am against are Christians (or any other religions) where an individual is prejudiced against someone else because of their religious beliefs.

No matter what you could write, there is no defense for writing that Allah is a demon. It sickens me....
Cheif, I'm absolutely convinced that anyone that doesn't agree with your views 100% of the time is going to offend you. What I think he's getting at is that their is a school of theology that offers that Allah was not actually God speaking to Muhammad, but a demon. He is not alone in this belief...

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/chapter1.html

http://www.blessedquietness.com/alhaj/page19.htm

http://peace-of-mind.net/Islam.htm

The theory, as you can see, is that Muhammad was not actually speaking to God, but rather to a demon that pretended to be God, and there is argument to support it. Is there truth in this claim? How would anyone possibly know other than actually experencing the demon first hand? I personally have no reason to state that, because A) I wasn't there when Muhammad was approached by whoever he was approached by and B) it really doesn't matter what I believe about Allah because I don't worship him and I do not think he and Adonia are the same being therefore I am always going to attempt to lead someone to experience the love and sacrifice of Christ and His Father.
What he is claiming is that there is the possibility that the whole religion of Islam is based around the accidental worship of a demon who convinced Muhammad he was the creator. How can any of us know whether that is or is not the case?
I'm sorry that you feel that somehow that is the promotion of hatred. Perhaps though, you might step back and try to look at it through the eyes of sympathy (arguably, these souls have been tricked) as opposed to hatred, and then maybe you would see that he is not trying to attack anyone, but rather express his own concern.
But, if it is any concolation, Islam would teach that all Christians are going to hell because they do not believe in Allah and they believe in the Holy Trinity which, to them, is belief in more than one God. What you want is this idea of pluralism, where everyone is right in their own little world. But the reality is that at least one of these two faiths is wrong, if not both, and therefore, by the rules of that faith, at least one of these faiths is destined to be seperate from God in the end. There is no "everybody's right" here... it's one or the other or none, it can't be both.
 

26 X World Champs

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sebastiansdreams said:
Cheif, I'm absolutely convinced that anyone that doesn't agree with your views 100% of the time is going to offend you. What I think he's getting at is that their is a school of theology that offers that Allah was not actually God speaking to Muhammad, but a demon. He is not alone in this belief...

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/chapter1.html

http://www.blessedquietness.com/alhaj/page19.htm

http://peace-of-mind.net/Islam.htm
It's striking how hateful the sites you chose to select to make your point. All of them are prejudiced and laced with hate.

In effect you're preaching that two wrongs make a right. Why not also include racially biased websites? There's no difference from the sites you chose.

You can rationalize all you want, but to me you're exposing yourself. The fact that you feel it is OK to use hate sites speaks volumes for your character.

Please do me a favor? Stop trying to make believe that you're so open minded and tolerant? It just doesn't read that way to me, sorry. You'd be the first to explode if someone seriously wrote:

"Jesus was a fake, a phony. He's the devil, not the son of God. Jesus is pure evil."

That statement is filled with hate, inspired by ignorant prejudice, and insulting to anyone who has a modicum of respect for their fellow human beings. The fact that you're choosing to not condone the hate filled post only aligns you on the side of prejudice....how sad for you.
 
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sebastiansdreams

26 X World Champs said:
It's striking how hateful the sites you chose to select to make your point. All of them are prejudiced and laced with hate.

In effect you're preaching that two wrongs make a right. Why not also include racially biased websites? There's no difference from the sites you chose.

You can rationalize all you want, but to me you're exposing yourself. The fact that you feel it is OK to use hate sites speaks volumes for your character.

Please do me a favor? Stop trying to make believe that you're so open minded and tolerant? It just doesn't read that way to me, sorry. You'd be the first to explode if someone seriously wrote:

"Jesus was a fake, a phony. He's the devil, not the son of God. Jesus is pure evil."

That statement is filled with hate, inspired by ignorant prejudice, and insulting to anyone who has a modicum of respect for their fellow human beings. The fact that you're choosing to not condone the hate filled post only aligns you on the side of prejudice....how sad for you.
Oh will you stop it! Firstly, I DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT TO BEGIN WITH! There is absolutely no evidence that would lead me to believe that the statement is true OR false. It frankly doesn't matter one way or another. From what I read of them (regretably not much because I was only trying to show you quickly that this is a school of thought, NOT THAT IT IS FACTUAL), I do not know how "hate" filled they are. But, you have this horrible misconception that everyone should be right and no one should think that anyone else is wrong.
However, to argue that he is being hatefilled and prejudice is not correct. He faithfully believes in his own religion, and has an opinion about the origins of another that he has based from logical arguments.
And yes, there is a difference between racially biased sites and those I chose... each of these makes arguments and statements that at least require some sort of logical response to them... as opposed to black people are worse cause their skin is different.
I have no idea what you're talking about by stating that I think it is okay to use these sites? I'm assuming he already had come to this decision before he ever read a website on it, and I was only showing you that he is not alone in this belief, nothing more. To claim that I am showing something by giving you directions as to where to find more people that believe the same way that someone else does is ridiculous and showing that you are a "witch hunting" hateful old man who wishes to deminish the legitamacy of the claims of anyone who disagrees with you. Next you'll have me in a trial over my actions in the Communist Party. You belong to a group of people that I have encountered along the way that seek to be offended as much as they possibily can so that they can make everyone around them feel as though they must be completely justified for believing something or feeling something. You are a whiner. You do not seek to find agreement or understanding, rather you seek discourse and false empathy.
Furthermore, I would not explode over that comment. I know that there are millions upon millions of people who believe that about Jesus of Nazareth, and I would imagine that some of them frequent this site... But instead of pointing my finger and saying "you're prejudice/hateful/sickening/offensive" I would simply ask why they believe that and attempt to show them that that is not the case.
I'm not trying to prove anything to you about my own character. What you think of me is your own opinion and personally, as of this moment that doesn't mean a whole lot at all to me right now.
 

Arch Enemy

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4theLamb said:
Read: John 14:6, John 6:29; Hebrews 11:6, Acts 10:43

Romans 10:9, 10

Islam and Christianity are very different. Allah is an impersonal god who can change his mind at anytime for any reason while Elohim is personal and does not change. You should probably study both of Islam, Buddhism and Christianity more in depth.

Buddism goes against the the Bible and Jesus. It is not great life philosophies. There is one God and He is the Living Creator God.
You can't explain to someone religion when they don't believe in the Bible. The Christian religion have been filled with the Popes of past making their own versions of the bible.. Why was four of the original books randomly found out in the desert? I don't think you loose 4 of the MOST valuable text ever if not be intention.

Again I ask the question.. Was Mary Magdalen a prostitute?

Prove that the Bible is the direct word of god? Where do you get this idea from? Prophets? How do you know they haven't lied to you?
 
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sebastiansdreams

The Christian religion have been filled with the Popes of past making their own versions of the bible.
Okay, prove it. Show us historical fact that can prove that a Pope has changed the Bible to make it their own version.
 

Arch Enemy

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not through physically writing it, but through false interpretations of the bible.
 

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Pope Gregory II said that Mary Magdalen was a prostitute according to "She was a prostitute of the city".

But the bible NEVER says who "she" ... all we know is that it refers to a Woman.
 
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sebastiansdreams

Arch Enemy said:
Pope Gregory II said that Mary Magdalen was a prostitute according to "She was a prostitute of the city".

But the bible NEVER says who "she" ... all we know is that it refers to a Woman.
And so from the question of whether Mary Magdalen was a prostitute or not, you get that the entirety of the Bible is in question because of power hungry Pope's wishing to twist its innards so that the Bible means something completely different from its original message? I think that might be considered as jumping to a conclusion... but believe whatever you like.
 

Arch Enemy

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You're not following me.. I never said that I count the bible as false.. I was just making the statement that the Christian religion is not as it used to be, that it's been interpreted by our Ancestors and hid from us (Secret Archive of Vatican) that we cannot know the truth of our religion.
 
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sebastiansdreams

Arch Enemy said:
You're not following me.. I never said that I count the bible as false.. I was just making the statement that the Christian religion is not as it used to be, that it's been interpreted by our Ancestors and hid from us (Secret Archive of Vatican) that we cannot know the truth of our religion.
OOOHHHH, well in that case I have absolutely no idea what you're arguing here!
 
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