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Heaven - Are Non-Christians There?

Gandhi>Bush said:
I think it's fairly easy to wiegh whether someone was good or bad. I think it is even easier if you're God.
Oh really? Because I absolutely dissagree. I think the human life is one mistake followed by a good thing, then another mistake followed by a good thing. And then sometimes its a good thing followed by another mistake. And I gaurante you that you would be incredibly hard pressed to find anyone in this whole world who actually believed they were going to hell. And how horrible of God to weigh us on whether we've lived a good or a bad life and never even begin to tell us what is wrong or right? What you are just not understanding is that no one deserves to go to heaven. Heaven is God's eternal kingdom. It is a perfect place. No one deserves perfect. You cannot earn it, you cannot be worthy of it. God, no matter how loving He is, has absoluetly no reason to allow us into that kingdom. But He does allow us into the kingdom, so long as we have relationship with Jesus, so that He can speak on our behalf.
You have a very beautiful veiw of what heaven ought to be... but you must understand that this is an invention that you yourself are making, because there is no evidence anywhere that would suggest that a good life would equal heaven.
It just seems so wrong that there's only one way to get to heaven, the Christian way. If there is an omnipotent higher power then it stands to reason that we, as humans have no way to know what the rules of the game are. Relying on ancient texts/folklore/personal belief is human and therefore has no basis of proving what a higher power would consider worthy, or unworthy.
But that's only true if indeed God cannot work through man. Why do you not think that if someone wanted God's will to be done that He would not allow that to happen?
I do think it's outrageous for anyone or any group to claim their way or the highway (or is it low-way?).
Firstlly, I'm sure you and I have an incredibly different view of hell. You think of this fire and brimstone place where there is incredible suffering, I think is is possible that that it is just like life, only without God being there (thus the seperation). So for many, nothing will change, it will just be forever.
But either way, why do you believe that there is so many ways in to heaven? Under your theology, it is incredibly possible that everyone goes to heaven and that no one deserves hell (well accept for murderers, cause they've been very bad). What could be any easier than accepting a sacrifice that has already been made for you? What could be easier than loving the man that died for you? Why is this such a strugle for anyone?
I think it would be nice if those who are so hell bent (maybe there's a better term?) to convert everyone to their beliefs would stop making it sound like if you do not join the mob they'll be consequences to pay (sounds like the Godfather...he was Catholic too).
You know what the ironic thing is, in all my time at the church, I have never once heard anyone say anything to anyone like "if you don't join our side you're gonna burn." NEVER! You know why? Because none of us think that. None of us want anyone to burn. We all want to spread the Good News, the gospel, the wonderful message that you too can join God, your creator in heaven, and all you have to do is accept the sacrifice of His son, that's it. You don't have to keep a running tally on the bad things you've done, you don't have to fulfill all five pillars, you just have to accept the sacrifice of the Messiah. How can you say that is being exclusive?
 
sebastiansdreams said:
Oh really? Because I absolutely dissagree. I think the human life is one mistake followed by a good thing, then another mistake followed by a good thing. And then sometimes its a good thing followed by another mistake. And I gaurante you that you would be incredibly hard pressed to find anyone in this whole world who actually believed they were going to hell. And how horrible of God to weigh us on whether we've lived a good or a bad life and never even begin to tell us what is wrong or right? What you are just not understanding is that no one deserves to go to heaven. Heaven is God's eternal kingdom. It is a perfect place. No one deserves perfect. You cannot earn it, you cannot be worthy of it. God, no matter how loving He is, has absoluetly no reason to allow us into that kingdom. But He does allow us into the kingdom, so long as we have relationship with Jesus, so that He can speak on our behalf.
You have a very beautiful veiw of what heaven ought to be... but you must understand that this is an invention that you yourself are making, because there is no evidence anywhere that would suggest that a good life would equal heaven.

Yes, only a cruel God would ask you to be a good person! What are we going to do? :2bigcry:

sebastiansdreams said:
You know what the ironic thing is, in all my time at the church, I have never once heard anyone say anything to anyone like "if you don't join our side you're gonna burn." NEVER! You know why? Because none of us think that. None of us want anyone to burn. We all want to spread the Good News, the gospel, the wonderful message that you too can join God, your creator in heaven, and all you have to do is accept the sacrifice of His son, that's it. You don't have to keep a running tally on the bad things you've done, you don't have to fulfill all five pillars, you just have to accept the sacrifice of the Messiah. How can you say that is being exclusive?

Maybe not in those words, but I've heard people say that kind of thing alot. But then again I'm from Texas so maybe it's just the southern baptist part.

"Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started but could not finish, I -- Adolf Hitler -- will conclude."

That son of a bitch isn't going to Heaven. He followed your rules. All he did was accept jesus christ as his lord and savior and kill millions of people. If I am sent to down while he is ushered to the front of the line, I will go with a certian satisfaction and pride.
 
Gandhi>Bush said:
Yes, only a cruel God would ask you to be a good person! What are we going to do? :2bigcry:
No, I didn't say He was cruel by asking us to be good. I said He would have been cruel if He had asked us to be good, and then never told us how to be good or given us guidelines or told us anything at all really. That would be cruel. If you can't believe any scripture or anything at all, how can you even begin to believe that there is a heaven? You have absolutely no argument for their being an afterlife at all other than your own feelings.

That son of a bitch isn't going to Heaven. He followed your rules. All he did was accept jesus christ as his lord and savior and kill millions of people. If I am sent to down while he is ushered to the front of the line, I will go with a certian satisfaction and pride.
Okay, lets' go with this for a second. Say that Adolf Hitler did go to heaven because he accpeted Christ. Who are you to say he shouldn't? What does it matter to you who enters the gates of heaven or not? It is not your kingdom, you didn't build it. Why do you think that you ought to be able to judge who should and should not go into heaven. Do you not think that that is the Lord's place to decide who enters and who does not and under what grounds they may enter or may not? You're creating a system that God himself did not for how one might enter His kingdom? Is that fair of you?
Now, I personally do not think that he actually was a Christian, because if anyone truly loves Christ, he will act in the ways that Christ wanted him to. No man would do what he did and still be in love with Christ. BUT, if for some reason God let him into the kingdom, then that is God's choice to make, not yours and not mine.
 
sebastiansdreams said:
But He does allow us into the kingdom, so long as we have relationship with Jesus, so that He can speak on our behalf.
One the one hand you tell Gandhi that his view of heaven is an invention & that he has no way of knowing if his view is reality.

On the other hand you also write that if you're buddy buddy with Jesus you're allowed in the VIP room.

That is quite a weird argument. You know, but we don't? Only Christians know? With all due respect that sounds like a cult to me. What you just wrote is what someone whose brainwashed would say, and would do so from his heart. I'm sure you believe what you wrote, but that does not make it any less weird.

Can you understand how it appears to a neutral party? You know because Christ told you AND you discount any possibility of any other non-Christian method. :thumbdown
sebastiansdreams said:
Firstly, I'm sure you and I have an incredibly different view of hell. You think of this fire and brimstone place where there is incredible suffering, I think is is possible that that it is just like life, only without God being there (thus the seperation). So for many, nothing will change, it will just be forever.
Putting words in my mouth, again? How do you know what my view of hell is? For example, the Red Sox winning the World Series was as hellish as it gets for me! :lol:

Seriously, you do need to stop making up stuff that you think I think. As I wrote in my last post, no one, not even you knows what's on GTV after you pass. You write as if you know for sure, and that anyone who doesn't follow your belief gets to hang out at an airport lounge or bowling alley for all eternity (this is an analogy folks)!

On South Park it's claimed that only Mormons are allowed into heaven (they're the only ones who got it right). They have running gags about Mormons that are hilarious, but seriously, who's to say?

I know this will freak you out, but what happens if the Muslims are right? What will become of you?
 
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26 X World Champs said:
One the one hand you tell Gandhi that his view of heaven is an invention & that he has no way of knowing if his view is reality.
Well, dear, in a way, heaven is an invention. Someone somewhere made it up. I think it was God, but you're welcome to believe what you like. What I said to Gandhi was that his view of heaven is HIS OWN invention, and it does not correspond with anything we have record of or that is given to us. It is his belief that he has kind of created, not one that already existed before he came.

On the other hand you also write that if you're buddy buddy with Jesus you're allowed in the VIP room.
Well, it's Jesus kingdom, so why would it not make sense that He let those who seek Him and love Him into His kingdom and those that do not love Him or even believe in Him into His kindgom? Any other arguments seems incredibly odd to me.

That is quite a weird argument. You know, but we don't? Only Christians know? With all due respect that sounds like a cult to me.
What do you mean? I totally just told you how to get into heaven. It's not some big secret! Christians are going around telling everyone how to get into heaven and every body else is saying "No, I'll do it my own way." You make it sound so lucritive and unfair... but there is no one in the world who cannot choose to be a Christian. It takes one geniune prayer, and that's it! Why is it so difficult for you to understand that we are not against anyone, we want everyone to join us in heaven. It's the most natural and simple thing in the world, and everybody is bent on making it so difficult.

Seriously, you do need to stop making up stuff that you think I think. As I wrote in my last post, no one, not even you knows what's on GTV after you pass. You write as if you know for sure, and that anyone who doesn't follow your belief gets to hang out at an airport lounge or bowling alley for all eternity (this is an analogy folks)
I do not to an extent what heaven and hell are because I've been told from the man that created them himself through the Bible. AND IT IS NOT MY BELIEF! I don't have any say in any of this. I am just following something that was intalled long before I was even a sparkle in my fathers eye. I am just teling you that there is no reason that if you do not accept the sacrifice of Christ that anyone deserves to be allowed into heaven. You don't deserve it, I don't deserve it, no one deserves heaven. No one deserves heaven. No one deserves heaven (do I need to say it again?) The only thing that can allow you into heaven is God, and He has sent us His son as a sacrifice so that our sings can be washed clean (are you familiar with the custom of sacrifice?).
I know this will freak you out, but what happens if the Muslims are right? What will become of you?
Oh woah! You mean, Christianity might not be right? Wow, I never really thought about that before. Maybe I should go be Muslim.
Look, I've thought of the consequences of me being wrong. And if I'm wrong, then I will go to hell then knowing I was wrong. But I refuse to live my life not beliving in what feels so natural just because there is always that outlining possibility I'm wrong. I accept the consequences, but I continue to press forward and hold strong to my belife, because I have seen what it can do in a life, I have seen what it has done in my life, and that just cannot be matched. I believe in heaven because Jesus talked about it, and I believe Jesus because He and His teachings have changed my life. If I'm wrong, I will live and die wrong. But I know that He is right.
 
sebastiansdreams said:
It is his belief that he has kind of created, not one that already existed before he came.
Your smug reply is what I find disagreeable about you. No matter who posts, so long as they do not agree with your view, IMHO, you write "better than" replies. Sometimes you veil your agenda, but often it's transparent that you cannot even consider anything else but Christianity, IMHO.
sebastiansdreams said:
Well, it's Jesus kingdom, so why would it not make sense that He let those who seek Him and love Him into His kingdom and those that do not love Him or even believe in Him into His kindgom? Any other arguments seems incredibly odd to me.
Someone who is less arrogant, less smug would not write such condescending remarks. You don't know it's "Jesus' kingdom." You believe it is, but you do not know. IMHO it's a very narrow minded POV. I accept that you might be correct, but I also accept other concepts too. I do not respond to someone as a religious know-it-all because to me it's rude, unbecoming, and self-centered.

No matter how many times you espouse about "Jesus' Kingdom" you lose me and probably tons of others, but then you say you welcome everyone. Welcomng everyone seems to mean that, as I wrote before, my way or the low-way. That to me is very unattractive.

Personally, I feel that whatever makes someone serene is cool. I just don't want to tell anyone else how to attain serenity. I don't pretend to know the answers, because, no matter what you say, no one knows.

I find it very disrespectful for someone to write:
sebastiansdreams said:
Well, it's Jesus kingdom, so why would it not make sense that He let those who seek Him and love Him into His kingdom and those that do not love Him or even believe in Him into His kindgom?
That one statement is the essence of what I find distasteful about your beliefs, and why I think it sounds like a cult or brainwashing.

You know, people who are brainwashed don't know they are, and cannot accept that it's even a possibility. You know?
sebastiansdreams said:
What do you mean? I totally just told you how to get into heaven. It's not some big secret! Christians are going around telling everyone how to get into heaven and every body else is saying "No, I'll do it my own way." You make it sound so lucritive and unfair... but there is no one in the world who cannot choose to be a Christian.
Being in a cult is not like being in a secret society. It's more that you have total blind faith and will do whatever you're told to do unequivacably. Words like drone, robot, mesmerized & programmed come to mind when I read stuff like this. Remember, this is my personal opinion, my own conclusion. It doesn't mean that I'm right, but it also doesn't mean that I'm wrong either.
sebastiansdreams said:
I am just teling you that there is no reason that if you do not accept the sacrifice of Christ that anyone deserves to be allowed into heaven. You don't deserve it, I don't deserve it, no one deserves heaven. No one deserves heaven. No one deserves heaven (do I need to say it again?) The only thing that can allow you into heaven is God, and He has sent us His son as a sacrifice so that our sings can be washed clean (are you familiar with the custom of sacrifice?).
I think Jesus is folklore. I do not think he's God. I don't even know if he actually existed. There's been a lot written about him, but there's been a lot written about Roswell & the Loch Ness Monster too, and there are millions of people who believe that they exist as well. I'm not smart enough to know the answers here, though I am open minded. I do not act smug like I know and you don't because that is not what I consider to be polite. I find it rude.
sebastiansdreams said:
Oh woah! You mean, Christianity might not be right? Wow, I never really thought about that before. Maybe I should go be Muslim.
SMUG aren't you? Maybe you should read some more about HUMILITY? You know what the definition of humble is:
hum·ble Pronunciation Key (hmbl)
adj. hum·bler, hum·blest

1. Marked by meekness or modesty in behavior, attitude, or spirit; not arrogant or prideful.
2. Showing deferential or submissive respect: a humble apology.
IMHO (the H stands for HUMBLE) opining about my religious tenets is very different than telling someone what is and what is not correct.
 
sebastiansdreams said:
What I said to Gandhi was that his view of heaven is HIS OWN invention, and it does not correspond with anything we have record of or that is given to us. It is his belief that he has kind of created, not one that already existed before he came...

...Oh woah! You mean, Christianity might not be right? Wow, I never really thought about that before. Maybe I should go be Muslim.
Look, I've thought of the consequences of me being wrong. And if I'm wrong, then I will go to hell then knowing I was wrong. But I refuse to live my life not beliving in what feels so natural just because there is always that outlining possibility I'm wrong. I accept the consequences, but I continue to press forward and hold strong to my belife, because I have seen what it can do in a life, I have seen what it has done in my life, and that just cannot be matched. I believe in heaven because Jesus talked about it, and I believe Jesus because He and His teachings have changed my life. If I'm wrong, I will live and die wrong. But I know that He is right.

You see muslim ideology and you do not feel that they are right. I see Christianity with the same feeling. And my beliefs are not something I just pooped out one day. I don't think it's fair to say that the way I think of God has never been though of before. I think there have been many people throughout the years that believe that there is a God, but no one has got him pegged yet.

I don't think that that is new at all.

I believe in an after life because it makes sense. I believe in a final judgement because it makes sense. I do not, however, believe that there is ONE deciding decision that gets you in or out.

By your definition Hitler is in Heaven. Plain and simple. I know that's not an issue because by your definition, the Jews he's responsible for are in hell.
 
Gandhi>Bush said:
You see muslim ideology and you do not feel that they are right. I see Christianity with the same feeling. And my beliefs are not something I just pooped out one day. I don't think it's fair to say that the way I think of God has never been though of before. I think there have been many people throughout the years that believe that there is a God, but no one has got him pegged yet.
Yes, but the difference is that I'm prepared and accepting of the possibility that I will go to hell if I am wrong. It does not seem that you are willing to accept that you may be in hell for your belief.
I don't think that that is new at all.
Okay, let me back way up. Let's start very small and we'll go from there. How do you know what is right or wrong in God's eyes?

I believe in an after life because it makes sense. I believe in a final judgement because it makes sense. I do not, however, believe that there is ONE deciding decision that gets you in or out.
Really! Explain to me why is it logical that there is an afterlife? Explain to me that it is logical that the actions of this life would somehow be used as a deciding factor of afterlife? None of it is logical, unless you look at it from the words of the person that created it.

By your definition Hitler is in Heaven. Plain and simple. I know that's not an issue because by your definition, the Jews he's responsible for are in hell.
No, I do not think that Hitler is in heaven (didn't I spend two sentences saying that?) I do not believe that anyone who is in love with Christ would do that to anyone for any reason at all. But I'm also telling you that it doesn't matter what you or I think, it only matters what God thinks in the end. And yes, I am arguing that it is possible that all of the Jews he killed will join him in hell. I do not know that is the case, but if God fills out what He claims He will in the Bible, then without having accepted Christ's sacrifice then no once can enter the kingdom of heaven. Period.
 
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sebastiansdreams said:
And yes, I am arguing that it is possible that all of the Jews he killed will join him in hell. I do not know that is the case, but if God fills out what He claims He will in the Bible, then without having accepted Christ's sacrifice then no once can enter the kingdom of heaven. Period.
Wow! If that's true then I for one have no use for the Christian God. Please don't repeat again how we don't deserve, we're not good enough yada yada. What you just opined, if it were true, would mean that the so called loving God doesn't deserve to have his name capitalized.

I personally believe that to solely believe that you must accept Christ to move on up is, to be blunt, really really insane....Sorry! But I must admit that when I read some of the stuff that you write I do think you're crazy...sorry! It's nothing personal for I don't know you, I only know you from what you've written, and if I'm being honest with myself and with you then I must humbly admit that I think your view on this subject is insanity.
 
sebastiansdreams said:
Yes, but the difference is that I'm prepared and accepting of the possibility that I will go to hell if I am wrong. It does not seem that you are willing to accept that you may be in hell for your belief.

Gandhi>Bush said:
If I am sent to down while he is ushered to the front of the line, I will go with a certian satisfaction and pride.

Remember that? I don't have a problem being wrong.

sebastiansdreams said:
Okay, let me back way up. Let's start very small and we'll go from there. How do you know what is right or wrong in God's eyes?

I think we all have a basic idea of the difference between good and evil when we start off. We mold that as we become the men/women that we grow to be.

sebastiansdreams said:
Really! Explain to me why is it logical that there is an afterlife? Explain to me that it is logical that the actions of this life would somehow be used as a deciding factor of afterlife? None of it is logical, unless you look at it from the words of the person that created it.

I believe in God. It doesn't make sense that God would just let us live and leave us in the ground. The idea is strange, illogical.

sebastiansdreams said:
No, I do not think that Hitler is in heaven (didn't I spend two sentences saying that?) I do not believe that anyone who is in love with Christ would do that to anyone for any reason at all. But I'm also telling you that it doesn't matter what you or I think, it only matters what God thinks in the end. And yes, I am arguing that it is possible that all of the Jews he killed will join him in hell. I do not know that is the case, but if God fills out what He claims He will in the Bible, then without having accepted Christ's sacrifice then no once can enter the kingdom of heaven. Period.

I'm sorry. I simply can't believe that six million people that never did anything wrong will be sent to hell with the person that sent them there. That idea is grotesque. It's not just, loving, or anything positive. It's grotesque.
 
26 X World Champs said:
Your smug reply is what I find disagreeable about you. No matter who posts, so long as they do not agree with your view, IMHO, you write "better than" replies. Sometimes you veil your agenda, but often it's transparent that you cannot even consider anything else but Christianity, IMHO.
You constantly call me arrogant and smug. I am telling you that I know the truth because I have experienced it. If I did not believe all of this with all of my heart, without question, then why on earth would I live by its tenets? Why on earth would I devote my entire belief around something I wasn't sure about? You argue that I should allow the possibility that I am wrong. But if I do that, then I live my whole life second guessing every decision I make and everything I believe over and over and over again. I spent the first majority of my life searching for the truth. I have found it, and you want me to not be so sure about it. Well you know what, just because you're not sure about what I believe does not mean that I should have to be unsure about it!
Personally, I feel that whatever makes someone serene is cool. I just don't want to tell anyone else how to attain serenity. I don't pretend to know the answers, because, no matter what you say, no one knows.
You don't know therefore no one knows. In your opinion, no one knows the truth. I dissagree with you.
That one statement is the essence of what I find distasteful about your beliefs, and why I think it sounds like a cult or brainwashing.
If I'm brainwashed, then I've spent the first part of my life seeking this brainwashing. But here, let's be fair. You say that I am brainwashed right? I tell you what. If you can come up with a better, more logical, more fulfilling, more life altering, more joyful, more confident way for me to live my life, I'll take it and run with it. If you cannot do that, then do not tell me that Christianity is not it.

I think Jesus is folklore. I do not think he's God. I don't even know if he actually existed. There's been a lot written about him, but there's been a lot written about Roswell & the Loch Ness Monster too, and there are millions of people who believe that they exist as well. I'm not smart enough to know the answers here, though I am open minded. I do not act smug like I know and you don't because that is not what I consider to be polite. I find it rude.
What if I'm not smug and I know these things to be true? How do you know I do not? All of this that you find so horrible with me, is because you think I am trying to show you how right I am. Well it has nothing to do with me. If I had never been born this would still be the right way. If I were a Muslim, Christianity would still be what is true, whether I believed it or not. I am not smug, or arrogant or cocky, I am simply convinced of the truth.
 
Gandhi>Bush said:
I think we all have a basic idea of the difference between good and evil when we start off. We mold that as we become the men/women that we grow to be..
So you do not believe in good intentions having bad consequences? Like a mother convinced that Mary told her to drown her child? You think that that's okay? Or a man beating his slave because he knows that that slave is less of a human? That's okay? Or the countless German solders killing anyone in their opposition because they are convinced they are being good statesmen? These are all grey. It was you who said there was no black or white, but there is grey. I don't think that God would send us here without giving us some sort of code that he holds all of us accountable to.

I believe in God. It doesn't make sense that God would just let us live and leave us in the ground. The idea is strange, illogical.
So because God created us on earth, then there must be an afterlife? How is that a logical argument? Maybe like machines, we are created, we serve our purpose, and then we are tossed away. Why isn't that equally as logical?

I'm sorry. I simply can't believe that six million people that never did anything wrong will be sent to hell with the person that sent them there. That idea is grotesque. It's not just, loving, or anything positive. It's grotesque.
I'm sorry, are you arguing that these people never commited a sin in their lives? Are you suggesting that they were all perfect and that they deserved to stand beside a perfect God? Because I'm sorry, but even though they were undeserving victims to an atrocity, that still does not make them equal and deserving of God or heaven. The just part is that God gave them a life, and said that all they ever had to do was accept Christ as their savior and then any of them could go to heaven. Why didn't they just accept that sacrifice? That was all they ever had to do. You are still caught up in this idea of good = heaven and bad = hell. But no one is good enough for heaven. It just doesn't work that way. I am sorry that you dissagree, but again, it isn't your world, you didn't create it, so it isn't your rules.
 
Arch Enemy said:
4TheLamb

You see to be a good little bible thumper, could you please show me how your god is correct and how the others are wrong. As well as show me that the bible isn't just what a bunch of so called "prophets" wrote in order to show people their own false beliefs.


God also used tax collectors, fisherman, doctors, kings, tent makers and many others. God through the Bible tells the future no other religion does that.
 
Gandhi>Bush said:
Two sides God's and Satan's.

That's gross.

Black and White. No gray? None at all?

I don't think God. Even YOUR God would send good people to hell simply because they though that he was different. It doesn't make sense that he would send a good person who wasn't christian to the same fate that he sends hitler. That is not a loving, just, God.

Two sides God's and Satan's.

It's thoughts like that that lead to Jihads.


there is no one who does good not even one. God's standards are without Jesus you go to Hell. This is loving and just not only because he gives you a choice but also because He tells you what choice to make. Deuteronmy 30. If heaven was as gotten into by good works than it would be no different than earth. Whether you can accept it or not there are only two sides.
 
26 X World Champs said:
Well said! :applaud

It just seems so wrong that there's only one way to get to heaven, the Christian way. If there is an omnipotent higher power then it stands to reason that we, as humans have no way to know what the rules of the game are. Relying on ancient texts/folklore/personal belief is human and therefore has no basis of proving what a higher power would consider worthy, or unworthy.

All that people from all faiths can do is follow their beliefs and then see what happens. No amount of preaching is going to alter the fact that no one knows!

I do think it's outrageous for anyone or any group to claim their way or the highway (or is it low-way?).

I think it would be nice if those who are so hell bent (maybe there's a better term?) to convert everyone to their beliefs would stop making it sound like if you do not join the mob they'll be consequences to pay (sounds like the Godfather...he was Catholic too).

I like the saying LIVE AND LET LIVE. 4 simple words, yet almost impossible to achieve...


There is a way to know! Why wouldn't God give the rules? He did. The only way to get to Him is through Jesus. What mob? the majority of the world is not born again. Without Jesus you are dead already.

"Jesus said, 'I am the way, the truth and the life and no one comes unto the Father except to first go throught me'"-John 14:6
 
Gandhi>Bush said:
Yes, only a cruel God would ask you to be a good person! What are we going to do? :2bigcry:



Maybe not in those words, but I've heard people say that kind of thing alot. But then again I'm from Texas so maybe it's just the southern baptist part.

"Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started but could not finish, I -- Adolf Hitler -- will conclude."

That son of a bitch isn't going to Heaven. He followed your rules. All he did was accept jesus christ as his lord and savior and kill millions of people. If I am sent to down while he is ushered to the front of the line, I will go with a certian satisfaction and pride.


all the history I have read says that Hitler was an existenialist. That sounds more like he was trying to justify himself at that time not that he accepted Jesus as risen Lord and savior.
 
I just don't think that it there is one deciding factor in getting into heaven.

I believe god does care about character. He does care about our acts in life. Otherwise, what would be the point.

Accept Jesus. Kill yourself. YAY FOR HEAVEN.
 
26 X World Champs said:
One the one hand you tell Gandhi that his view of heaven is an invention & that he has no way of knowing if his view is reality.

On the other hand you also write that if you're buddy buddy with Jesus you're allowed in the VIP room.

That is quite a weird argument. You know, but we don't? Only Christians know? With all due respect that sounds like a cult to me. What you just wrote is what someone whose brainwashed would say, and would do so from his heart. I'm sure you believe what you wrote, but that does not make it any less weird.

Can you understand how it appears to a neutral party? You know because Christ told you AND you discount any possibility of any other non-Christian method. :thumbdown

Putting words in my mouth, again? How do you know what my view of hell is? For example, the Red Sox winning the World Series was as hellish as it gets for me! :lol:

Seriously, you do need to stop making up stuff that you think I think. As I wrote in my last post, no one, not even you knows what's on GTV after you pass. You write as if you know for sure, and that anyone who doesn't follow your belief gets to hang out at an airport lounge or bowling alley for all eternity (this is an analogy folks)!

On South Park it's claimed that only Mormons are allowed into heaven (they're the only ones who got it right). They have running gags about Mormons that are hilarious, but seriously, who's to say?

I know this will freak you out, but what happens if the Muslims are right? What will become of you?


Hell is hell. after the white throne judgement hell gets emptied out into the lake of fire. You should do some research into the ressurection of Jesus Christ. Simon Greenleaf, Josh McDowell, Ray Comfort are a few people I suggest to read there findings. Take there findings on your own and not what you hear about or read about what people say about them and critically analyze the findings. You can no that Muslims are wrong by the way by studingy their scripture. I don't know if you are aware of this or not but under Muslim belief most Muslims are going to Hell because they have not killed for Allah. Test beliefs before you believe them it helps.
 
4theLamb said:
There is a way to know! Why wouldn't God give the rules? He did. The only way to get to Him is through Jesus. What mob? the majority of the world is not born again. Without Jesus you are dead already.

"Jesus said, 'I am the way, the truth and the life and no one comes unto the Father except to first go throught me'"-John 14:6
Please don't take this personally, but what you wrote is what I would consider to be pure insanity, sorry.

For anyone to believe unequivocally as you do, with blind faith, is, as I wrote earlier today, IMHO, brainwashing. I'm sorry, that is truthfully how I feel.

The difference I guess is that I have respect for people on this planet, and put my faith in them rather than some mystical higher power that, no matter what I say or do, controls my destiny?

I've always been really turned off by religious fanaticism from all faiths, and the posts here have only reinforced my belief that any religion taken to the extreme is unhealthy.

What you wrote is as scary to me as suicide bombers. Who knows what you would do under certain circumstances in the name of your god? Sounds far fetched, right? But whenever fanaticism is in play, anything can happen.
 
4theLamb said:
Hell is hell. after the white throne judgement hell gets emptied out into the lake of fire. You should do some research into the ressurection of Jesus Christ. Simon Greenleaf, Josh McDowell, Ray Comfort are a few people I suggest to read there findings. Take there findings on your own and not what you hear about or read about what people say about them and critically analyze the findings. You can no that Muslims are wrong by the way by studingy their scripture. I don't know if you are aware of this or not but under Muslim belief most Muslims are going to Hell because they have not killed for Allah. Test beliefs before you believe them it helps.
So, all Jews are going to hell to? Please, don't be shy, lay it out for me?
 
What you wrote is as scary to me as suicide bombers. Who knows what you would do under certain circumstances in the name of your god? Sounds far fetched, right? But whenever fanaticism is in play, anything can happen.
I agree, I mean look what happened with Saul. I mean He went from murdering Christians to traveling around the world promoting Christ. His influence has saved millions of souls and to think, if only He had just believed as you do, and ignored God, then he could have gone on continuing to murder Christians so that you would not have to worry about us "imposing" our views on you here today.
 
26 X World Champs said:
So, all Jews are going to hell to? Please, don't be shy, lay it out for me?
No one can go to heaven without going through Christ. That is what the scripture says. Can you prove that is not the case?
 
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