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Heaven - Are Non-Christians There?

I disagree. People in general throughout history have a psychological need to feel the strength of numbers and to have a sense of belonging. It is everywhere. We have so many different religions around the globe. Can they all be "correct"? Obviously not since many are diametrically opposed.
It could also be said that believing in these unseen forces leads to the feelings of belonging so SOLE purpose may not be a good presentation. I conceed that much. I never said there was anything wrong with it. It just is.
Yes, they do. But they also, throughout history, have always ALWAYS been drawn to some sort of worship to something greater than themselves. Don't you think that is a little... coincidental? I mean, every single seperate culture in the world, with incredibly small exception, has some sort of faith in higher beings. Many of them very similar beliefs to each others. Do you not think that perhaps, just on a whim, that we are wired that way for a reason? I mean, what evolutionary value would that wiring have for us? If it is false, would it not just hold us back? But still, every culture seems to be drawn to a faith like a moth to flame... does that cause you to step back and say... "hmmm, well maybe..." Maybe we are geared with a need to feel as though we belong... but why? That would certainly not be a plausible effect from evolution. Maybe, just maybe, we are wired to believe that something is out there because someone is out there. What if that was God's plan?

It is exactly how it works but over thousands of years with infinitly greater opportunity to distort the original meanings.
Which is why it was written down, even in a time when anything to this nature rarely was written down. But also, if you experienced Christ in the way that is proposed, do you not think you could give an accurate account of it even fifty years later? Morever, if someone told you about this stuff, do you think you would forget it's more important details over time? This isn't you're average bedtime story... it's story big enough to devide history itself in two... at least to some of us.

Like what? Be good to others and try to get along? I do not have a problem with that.
No, more like "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, if any man wishes to seek the Father He must come through Me"
or
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
or
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosever belief in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."
Or the idea of absolute humbleness. A recognizing that you could do nothing without the grace of God. That you an enternal child, that there are things you will never know on earth, and some things you just have to accept as truth because Jesus said so. It's more about the calling to share the gospel to everyone. To be bold in your faith, and a steady warrior for what you believe in. You must be willing and able to overturn the tables in the church (in the preverbial, and even possibly lilteral sense). It is a life changing thing if you honestly believe it. The problem is that people are often to prideful (they believe they are the masters of their own universe, and refuse to accept the belief of a God) or they are blinded by their own logic ("well, I can't see God, and I can't hear Him, so He must not exist) or they simply do not have the willingness to educate themselves on seperate faiths, or attempt to experience God themselves... There are millions of reasons people write off the Bible as false and fiction... but none of those is because it's been proven wrong or is simply out of date. It is rarely ever that anyone seeks to disprove the Bible without having some sort of spite against the faiths of it. And even when that is done, it cannot be proven wrong anymore than any other very solid historical documents we have, escpecially dating to that time or before.
I find it funny you used the Ten Commandments... but okay, I'll work with that. I noticed on a few of them you said that you could follow them begrungingly, but it isn't as easy as it looks. You see, these commandments, when given, were instructions not only through action, but they were also sinful to be even considered in the mind (because face it, if sin is something seperating us from God, do you really thing God even thinks about stealing or sleeping with someone's wife?). Furthermore, you ever realize how hard it can be never to bear any false witness? Or how hard it is not to at some point or another covet what someone else has? Especially in the good old home of the brave, where we are constantly fed the "bigger and better" lines. Society around us, through television and radio and even the market promotes the obsession to "things" or idols (things that are worshipped other than God). So much more I could talk about these alone, but what about love your neighbor as yourself? You ever attempted to love EVERYONE. It is not anywhere in the vicinity of an easy task. Sacrifice is a big part of Christianity. It is giving up the thing of this world to seek the treasures given from heaven. Do not get me wrong, it is not impossible for anyone. And it is an incredibly rewarding, and in the end, better path for anyone who might choose it. But it is not cakewalk. And the faith aspect is a large reality of it too... and for some of us, that in and of itself is a challenge as well.

Actually they can do DNA tests now. I have no idea what they are comparing it to however.
Napolean who? Without the literature there is not Napolean for all we know.
What reality?
I went to catholic catechism for 12 years and passed with straight As(Yes it was graded). So what? I received much information but I am now suspicious as to the motivations of such teachings in general and their value to the global youth. Where it should serve as a unifying power these religions are divisive in nature and lead to global warring.
Very good. Then you know better than anyone that obtaining knowledge on something and being informed of something is a very different matter that actually experiencing something and believing it. It's the heart/mind gap. Knowing about Christianity... knowing where it came from, why it is, what it teaches, the bends and twists it has taken along the way, the countless tenets... none of that is any more that facts and knowledge right? I mean you can know every last detail of how a rollercoaster works, but until you ride hop on and ride, you'll never really get it you know? I think everyone ought to know as much about their faith as they can. Christians today are awful about not knowing the Bible, but even in the Bible it says to seek wisdom and knowledge of God specifically. BUT, to know facts and history doesn't change anything. Until you start believing all of this for yourself, and until you really truly experience God (concsiously and firmly), then you will never really understand the reality of Christianity.
Be good. Be tolerant. Be safe. Be Prosperous.
Treat your fellow man the same way you expect with be treated. How hard is that?
Firstly, there is no good man. The rest is hard enough of a task to do everyday. I have a great deal of loving myself many days, so it is hard for me sometimes to really know how to love others. Furthermore, all of this is only surface stuff. None of it cocerns your own spiritual self, which is at very leas half of Christianity. Where you are guided, where your faith lies, how you are presenting yourself to the world that watches your moves to point out any hypocracy... It's not as easy as you make it out to be... at least not for someone as horribly fallible as myself.
 
Urethra Franklin said:
Perhaps the religious among you can explain this.
When people die, religious folk are always spouting off banal platitiudes like "he's in a better place" etc. and when it's a partner of somebody already dead it's "oh they're together now". Personally I think that's all BS, when you're dead you're dead and there's no afterlife, but how do you religious folk explain this:

My dad's first wife died. Presulably, by your logic, as a good christian woman, she went to heaven. My dad then married my mum, which the church allows. Now he's dead, presumably he's gone to heaven too, so he's with his first wife. Now what'll happen when my mum troops up? Are they expected to share him? Do they go and slug it out on some divine Jerry Springer show? What?


Menage a Trois in heaven I guess. No spitting, or fighting allowed.
 
4theLamb said:
Read: John 14:6, John 6:29; Hebrews 11:6, Acts 10:43

Romans 10:9, 10

Islam and Christianity are very different. Allah is an impersonal god who can change his mind at anytime for any reason while Elohim is personal and does not change. You should probably study both of Islam, Buddhism and Christianity more in depth.

Buddism goes against the the Bible and Jesus. It is not great life philosophies. There is one God and He is the Living Creator God.


THANK YOU!
 
4theLamb said:
Read: John 14:6, John 6:29; Hebrews 11:6, Acts 10:43

Romans 10:9, 10

Islam and Christianity are very different. Allah is an impersonal god who can change his mind at anytime for any reason while Elohim is personal and does not change. You should probably study both of Islam, Buddhism and Christianity more in depth.

Buddism goes against the the Bible and Jesus. It is not great life philosophies. There is one God and He is the Living Creator God.
Well, why don't you consult your holy writing (especially the Old Testament)and get to know your "personal" deity.

You'll find a petty, mean-spirited, capricious character that more closely resembles Saddam than a great being who would be responsible for the creation of the universe.
 
And, look, if there is a god, then don't you think it has better things with which to concern itself than whether "his people" eat bacon cheeseburgers?
 
Deus Ex Machina said:
And, look, if there is a god, then don't you think it has better things with which to concern itself than whether "his people" eat bacon cheeseburgers?
Do any of you know what the Jewish view of Heaven is? They believe that one's eternity is in the memories of the people you leave behind when you die. Their memories of you are what keeps one eternal. Therefore living one's life while on Earth to the fullest, and with the biggest and kindest heart will live eternally in the hearts and minds of people on Earth....
 
26 X World Champs said:
Do any of you know what the Jewish view of Heaven is? They believe that one's eternity is in the memories of the people you leave behind when you die. Their memories of you are what keeps one eternal. Therefore living one's life while on Earth to the fullest, and with the biggest and kindest heart will live eternally in the hearts and minds of people on Earth....
The Judaism of the Torah held that view, with the belief in the afterlife among some Jews developing later.

I'll acknowledge that I do sometimes get caught up in the silliness of the dietary laws or the pervasive violence of the "Old Testament".

But there is a lot of good sense in Judaism too. Look at the view of Heaven as described by 26 X World Champs above. it's a "carrot and stick" approach for reasonable people. We all know that one's esteem (whether positive or negative) among his/her peers survives his/her death; there's plenty of hard evidence for that. No need here to invent some fantasy fireplace to scare people!

Even the naming of their deity ("I am") revealed a deep philosophical underpinning. They defined their deity simply by its existence, rather than by any attributes. Unfortunately, only a select few in the ancient world understood philosophy. So instead, the testament gets littered with miracles, violence and stupid rules, because that's what Middle Easterners of that era expected from their rulers.

Judaism, because of its tradition of study and debate, can much more readily assess itself and then adjust to humanity's growing understanding of the world. Christianity still hasn't figured out how to accomodate internal debate without fracturing into pieces.

So yes, even as a screaming atheist, I have much more respect for the Jewish intellectual tradition.
 
Deus Ex Machina said:
But there is a lot of good sense in Judaism too. Look at the view of Heaven as described by 26 X World Champs above. it's a "carrot and stick" approach for reasonable people. We all know that one's esteem (whether positive or negative) among his/her peers survives his/her death; there's plenty of hard evidence for that. No need here to invent some fantasy fireplace to scare people!

Judaism, because of its tradition of study and debate, can much more readily assess itself and then adjust to humanity's growing understanding of the world. Christianity still hasn't figured out how to accomodate internal debate without fracturing into pieces.

So yes, even as a screaming atheist, I have much more respect for the Jewish intellectual tradition.
Well done! I agree. I prefer to live in the reality of today rather than bank on the myth of tomorrow. You can even use Jesus in this argument. His memory has survived all of these years, strongly. That is what makes him eternal to people on Earth, the memory of Jesus and his teachings.

The fire and brimstone fairy tales are unquantifiable. The eternal memory of someone is as clearly defined as any other fact, period.

Do you think that if we forgot people who came before us that we would have evolved to where we are today? The flip side is we have zero proof, not one shred of evidence that an "afterlife" of any kind exists, yet billions of people seem willing to bank on that eternity as their goal rather than achieving historical eternity while on Earth. I'm not talking about being famous, I'm talking about being remembered...by your family, friends, etc.

How interesting is it to look back at one's personal ancestry? The memory of those people has preserved their eternity on Earth. They are still alive, or if you will, they are in an afterlife (literally, not mythically) when we remember them.

The Jews concept is quite intellectual, and quite intelligent. What a breath of fresh air compared to the "You'll Go to Hell" teaching of those who believe in Heaven or Hell as a physical destination.
 
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26 X World Champs said:
Well done! I agree. I prefer to live in the reality of today rather than bank on the myth of tomorrow. You can even use Jesus in this argument. His memory has survived all of these years, strongly. That is what makes him eternal to people on Earth, the memory of Jesus and his teachings.

The fire and brimstone fairy tales are unquantifiable. The eternal memory of someone is as clearly defined as any other fact, period.

Do you think that if we forgot people who came before us that we would have evolved to where we are today? The flip side is we have zero proof, not one shred of evidence that an "afterlife" of any kind exists, yet billions of people seem willing to bank on that eternity as their goal rather than achieving historical eternity while on Earth. I'm not talking about being famous, I'm talking about being remembered...by your family, friends, etc.

How interesting is it to look back at one's personal ancestry? The memory of those people has preserved their eternity on Earth. They are still alive, or if you will, they are in an afterlife (literally, not mythically) when we remember them.

The Jews concept is quite intellectual, and quite intelligent. What a breath of fresh air compared to the "You'll Go to Hell" teaching of those who believe in Heaven or Hell as a physical destination.
Precicely! That is why over and over again I have said that your actions on earth do not designate where you will end up in the after life, because they have their own consequences (good or bad) on earth. So now, can you perhaps begin to understand why God would use a different qualification of allowing someone into heaven or hell if there is one?
 
sebastiansdreams said:
Precicely! That is why over and over again I have said that your actions on earth do not designate where you will end up in the after life, because they have their own consequences (good or bad) on earth. So now, can you perhaps begin to understand why God would use a different qualification of allowing someone into heaven or hell if there is one?
Precisely? I do not understand? I think the "afterlife" is the memory of you on Earth held by the people you knew, that is it, no mythological "heaven or hell" that is totally a guess and there is not one single fact anyone can use to say either exist.

You know what's especially true about the Jewish view of heaven and hell? It doesn't require that you be a member of any religion, it does not segregate people. The ridiculous (IMHO) Christian view that you have to "Accept Jesus" to enter Heaven is totally surreal and totally based on myth and fear mongering (kind of like today's Republican party)! It's not a leap to see how the two employ the same fear tactics to keep people believing.

Heaven on Earth? This is so smart, and so easy to prove. Heaven after death? Impossible to prove, and if you're Christian, it's based on segregation and prejudice.

Wow, what a slam dunk....IMHO....
 
26 X World Champs said:
Precisely? I do not understand? I think the "afterlife" is the memory of you on Earth held by the people you knew, that is it, no mythological "heaven or hell" that is totally a guess and there is not one single fact anyone can use to say either exist.

You know what's especially true about the Jewish view of heaven and hell? It doesn't require that you be a member of any religion, it does not segregate people. The ridiculous (IMHO) Christian view that you have to "Accept Jesus" to enter Heaven is totally surreal and totally based on myth and fear mongering (kind of like today's Republican party)! It's not a leap to see how the two employ the same fear tactics to keep people believing.

Heaven on Earth? This is so smart, and so easy to prove. Heaven after death? Impossible to prove, and if you're Christian, it's based on segregation and prejudice.

Wow, what a slam dunk....IMHO....
Okay, look at it this way. Most people have a completely unBiblical view of Heaven and Hell. If you asked most any american what hell is they would give you the whole fire and brimstone answer right? Doesn't matter if they are Christian or Jewish or anything at all. If you ask them what they think hell is like, they will give you fire and brimstone. But, show me where it says that in the NT. But wait, isn't the NT where Christians are supposed to be getting their understandings of heaven and hell? Also, if you ask pretty much anyone, including many many Christians how you get into heaven what do you think their response would be? "Being a good person." The idea is that depending on what you do in life, that is your afterlife. And you and I can both agree that that is a scare tactic and that it is completely unprovable (not to mention logically flawed). I think the only place that you and I dissagree is that there is actually a physical destination afterwards. We both agree that your memory is an afterlife based on the actions of your life. That is an afterlife. I just do not think that that is the only afterlife.
I agree, that "heaven on earth" as you call it is very logical and not only that, but it is Biblical to a degree. In fact, there is absolutely no reason for me to believe that there is a heaven or hell based on any point of evidence. The only reason I do in fact believe that there is a heaven and a hell is because Christ said so. I think you are right to a degree, as well. I think that the widespread view of heaven (as a place you go if you are good) is an element of fear mungering and myth. But I have come to realize that a great deal of myth is based on reality. And the reality is the heaven that Jesus discussed. And that is not simply myth and it is certainly not fear mongering. Heaven, as Christ presented it, is not something earned, but it is something given as a gift. And it is not something only given to one "religion" or another, but something given to anyone that believes that Christ was the son of God and that He gave this sacrifice to us. You must understand, before Christ came, there was no religion of Christianity, so his message was given to everyone... not a specific relgion. It was later that people began to say you must be a Christian to be given this gift. But the irony of it all is that originally, Christianity was not meant to be a relgion, but rather it was meant to be those who accepted the gift.
Point in case, Christ died for everyone, and gave everyone the oppurtunity to accept the GIFT of heaven. It does not matter who you are or where you came from or what religion you upheld... the point was, you accept the gift of Christ and you enter the gates of heaven. Christianity as a religion has changed kind of altered the view on that. But the reality is not that you must adhere to the Christian religion, only that you accept with your mind and heart the sacrifice of Christ.
 
All people should go to heaven because i'm sure everybody is tired of sufferng in this life. The only people who should really go to hell are truly evil people like Hitler, Charles Manson, and maybe Osama (if he knocked down the towers, which i've heard some wild stories about 9/11)
 
Urethra Franklin said:
My dad's first wife died. Presulably, by your logic, as a good christian woman, she went to heaven. My dad then married my mum, which the church allows. Now he's dead, presumably he's gone to heaven too, so he's with his first wife. Now what'll happen when my mum troops up? Are they expected to share him? Do they go and slug it out on some divine Jerry Springer show? What?


:2rofll: Sorry, that post just made me laugh. My understanding is that they wouldn't have to fight over him because heaven is free of hate, anger, and pain.
 
Fu_chick said:
:2rofll: Sorry, that post just made me laugh. My understanding is that they wouldn't have to fight over him because heaven is free of hate, anger, and pain.



If so no one is married in heaven. :2razz:
 
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