Heaven - Are Non-Christians There?

[Gandhi>Bush]

Saul didn't kill christians because he was ignoring God.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Can you prove it is without using a document written by HUMAN BEINGS.?

 

[sebastiansdreams]

I just don't think that it there is one deciding factor in getting into heaven.

I believe god does care about character. He does care about our acts in life. Otherwise, what would be the point.

Accept Jesus. Kill yourself. YAY FOR HEAVEN.

I certainly agree. God does care about your character. But that doesn't mean that He is forced to make that the deciding factor of whether or not you go to heaven. The point is live a good life so that you have a good life.
Because this life is also a gift for us. It is his will that we live on this earth, and it is His will that we continue to tell everyone else in the world about Christ. Yes, if the only thing one is conserned about in his own life is his own salvation, then killing yourself after accepting Christ makes sense. But the reality it that our influence changes other's minds. We are here to lead others to the same place we are headed. And that is the only reason we are still on this earth.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

Can you prove it is without using a document written by HUMAN BEINGS.?

Human beings led by God, and recording the actions and words of Jesus who was God on earth.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Yes, if the only thing one is conserned about in his own life is his own salvation, then killing yourself after accepting Christ makes sense.

I just want you to see what you've written. I think that's grotesque.

Jihad anyone?

 

[sebastiansdreams]

I just want you to see what you've written. I think that's grotesque.

Jihad anyone?

Of course it's grotesque. Which is why no one should be simply concerned with their own salvation, but with the salvation of the rest of the world as well. And what are you talking about with a Jihad? I would not kill someone else because they did not agree with me.

 

[26 X World Champs]

No one can go to heaven without going through Christ. That is what the scripture says. Can you prove that is not the case?

:rofl The onus is on YOU. You're the one making all the claims, laying down all the rules. Prove to us that what you say is FACT. Show me one person you've known who is now in heaven, then show me one non-Christian whose in hell?

I really do think your brainwashed, sorry. You'll never be able to see that inside of yourself because you are brainwashed.

If Jesus came to you tonight and spoke to you, and he told you to hijack an airplane and fly it into something, would you do it?

If he told you to kill yourself, would you do it?

Ever see the Manchurian candidate?

:screwy

 

[sebastiansdreams]

:rofl The onus is on YOU. You're the one making all the claims, laying down all the rules. Prove to us that what you say is FACT. Show me one person you've known who is now in heaven, then show me one non-Christian whose in hell?

I really do think your brainwashed, sorry. You'll never be able to see that inside of yourself because you are brainwashed.

If Jesus came to you tonight and spoke to you, and he told you to hijack an airplane and fly it into something, would you do it?

If he told you to kill yourself, would you do it?

Ever see the Manchurian candidate?

:screwy

I can't show you either of those and you know that. But what I can show you is the scripture that has Jesus as quoting there is a heaven. Furthermore, I can personally testify, as can a thousands of others that Jesus's teachings are accurate and have changed our lives. If someone came along and said a hundred incredibly profound things, each one that changed your life, and inhabited you with the Holy Spirit, you too might begin to believe "hey, maybe if this guy says something, I oughta believe it unless something can logically prove that it isn't true." I have that much proof, if you can prove to me there is no afterlife, then I will belive you. If not, then I will continue believing it, if that's alright with you?

I know you think I'm brainwashed, but I said earlier, if you can come up with a more convincing, more logical, more fulfilling, and better path for me that Christianity, I'm open to it. Unless you can do that, do you really think that I am stupid because I am opting to choose the best lifestyle this life has to offer?

That is a ridiculous question, because Jesus is the Son of God and He loves everyone, and there is no reason I can see for Him to ask me to do that. But if that happened, I would first seek council from someone I trusted, to assure me that I was not absolutely crazy, and if indeed for some reason or another a few seperate very logical minds still agreed that they thought this was God's message to me, then yes, I will do as God asked me, because at least then I would know it was not just my mind playing tricks on me, but it was honestly God's will for me.

I have often thought that God wanted me to kill myself. I've come much closer than the vast majority of people ever even want to think about. And then, after I wrecked my car very badly over a year ago, it occured to me, if God was ready to take me out, then He would have allowed it to happen at that time. But He didn't, so right now, I'm pretty convinced He wants me in the world.

Yes, I've seen the Manchurian Candidate. The obvious difference, I have a choice not to believe any of this. I could have walked away from all of this and never turned around. But I chose this because it makes more sense than anything else. So do not be so arrogant that you can say I am insane, when you don't know the first thing about "blindly believing" also known as faith.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

no one, not even you knows what's on GTV after you pass

This was your statement 26, the burden of proof lies on your head.

 

[ludahai]

I can't show you either of those and you know that. But what I can show you is the scripture that has Jesus as quoting there is a heaven. Furthermore, I can personally testify, as can a thousands of others that Jesus's teachings are accurate and have changed our lives. If someone came along and said a hundred incredibly profound things, each one that changed your life, and inhabited you with the Holy Spirit, you too might begin to believe "hey, maybe if this guy says something, I oughta believe it unless something can logically prove that it isn't true." I have that much proof, if you can prove to me there is no afterlife, then I will belive you. If not, then I will continue believing it, if that's alright with you?

This is an area where there is a difference between Catholic and Protestant teaching. The Bible does say that Jesus is the way to Heaven, but it doesn't say WHEN or HOW it works. We both agree that it is through the sacrifice of Jesus that we are all sanctified. There is no disagreement there.

However, is THAT what is meant when Jesus says that the road to Heaven come through Him. Catholics teach that there is a purgatory. Why can't someone who lived a good, sincere life, but never accepted Jesus, perhaps because he/she had never heard of Him, accept the truth of Jesus at that point. That would still be consistant with the notion that we get to Heaven through Jesus, just not in the way that Protestants understand it.

Even more out there perhaps is the notion that one doesn't have to ACCEPT it at all, just so long as they are sincere in their lives, they can go to Heaven because Jesus paid that price for them. It is still through that sacrifice that they make it to Heaven.

I am inclined to believe the ability to accept Jesus in purgatory explanation.

 

[ludahai]

I can't prove it, nor do I have to. I'm just telling you that their God and our God are not the same. I agree that the Catholics have changed a lot about faith, but that is why I am a Protestant and I believe in taking my faith from the Bible, not from the Church. And yes, it is very possible that Mary Magdalen was a prostitute... but what does it matter? The fact is Jesus loved everyone, every prostitute.

What have the Catholics changed about the faith? Protestants have changed the BIBLE! How can you have faith in a written document that men have altered? It was the Catholics who compiled the Bible at the Council of Carthage in A.D. 397, and Martin Luther changed it by taking out some books and chapters, and changing the wording of some crucial phrases in the Bible.

It is the Protestants who started this notion of sola scriptura, which was a MAJOR change in the faith, a much greater one than you could EVER pin on Catholics. In fact, there is good justification to claim that sola scriptura is heretical based on the fact that Jesus said that he would leave the Holy Spirit. However, the notion that ALL religious truth comes from the Bible (the cornerstone of sola scriptura) is directly at odds with the idea of the Holy Spirit remaining behind to guide the flock (which we belive is done through the Holy Catholic Church.)

Furthermore, Jesus said that Peter was to be the rock of His Church. Peter was the first Bishop of Rome.l

 

[Mixed View]

I'm wondering what people's views are on this subject? Some theoretical questions:

For example, did Heaven only open after Christ was born?

What about those who knew God but died in Old Testament times?

How about those to whom the Gospel is never preached, or who, due to prior prejudice or misinformation, are unable to understand it when they hear it?

Or those who live a life of good works while practicing some other religion (or none)?

How about those who seek God’s mercy while practicing some other religion (or none)?

This is what I believe.
"Did heaven only open after Christ was born?" I believe God has been building heaven since he built the world.
"What about those who knew God but died in Old Testament times?" In the old testament for God to forgive you of your sins you had to sacrifice an animal. Your best livestock. Then your sins would be forgiven.
"How about those to whom the Gospel is never preached, or who, due to prior prejudice or misinformation, are unable to understand it when they hear it?"
I believe that God will show them mercy and love. That's kind of unlikly that they wouldn't know who Jesus was though.
"Or those who do good works but follow another religion?" "I am the way the truth and the life, no one can come to my father except through me"John 14:6. To have your name in the Lamb's Book of Life you have to believe that Jesus was the son of God and you have to love god. If you follow another religion you are not only showing no love to God, but you are also disobeying the first commandment. Same thing with the last one.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

I just don't see anything called a "just god" framing the way to heaven like that.

Jeffrey Dahmer found Jesus in prison. He was a homosexual cannibalistic serial-killing necrophiliac. I believe that if he truly repented, he gained admittance to Heaven.

Mohandas K. Gandhi liberated India all the while preaching nonviolence over brutality and love over hatred. He preached for "turning the other cheek."

I refuse to believe that any "just God" would send him to hell for being a great human being and a terrible christian and send Dahmer to heaven for being a great christian and a terrible human being.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

I just don't see anything called a "just god" framing the way to heaven like that.

Jeffrey Dahmer found Jesus in prison. He was a homosexual cannibalistic serial-killing necrophiliac. I believe that if he truly repented, he gained admittance to Heaven.

Mohandas K. Gandhi liberated India all the while preaching nonviolence over brutality and love over hatred. He preached for "turning the other cheek."

I refuse to believe that any "just God" would send him to hell for being a great human being and a terrible christian and send Dahmer to heaven for being a great christian and a terrible human being.

Why do you feel that it is necessary to punish someone for their wrongdoings on earth for an eternity? That is certainly not the idea of heaven and hell that I get from the Bible. Hell certainly is not the more desirable of places, but all that we do know about it is that it was created by God, it is the place where Satan currently presides. There is a lake of fire somewhere in it. It is a place that is void of God. Everything else that you have seen or read regarding hell is, for all intensive purposes, myth and exageration. And counter to what 4thelamb has said, if I remember reading correctly it is not the sinners that are cast into a lake of fire but rather Satan himself and his army. The fate of the sinners is simply eternal seperation from a God they are not worthy to be with. Now, all of that being said, it is not, in my understanding, the punishment that it is made out to be. Rather the place we spend eternity is only based around whether we have been washed clean of the sins of our life by Christ's blood or not... and those who have not are not allowed into the gates of heaven. Furhtermore, you say that you feel it is unfair then that people are not judged for their actions on earth. But I argue that we all pay for the actions of our lives in our lives and in the history that follows. You talk about the good works of Gandhi... well all things considered, he was rewarded here on earth. He had a wonderful and inspired life. He brought freedom to India, he was joyful, and most of all, he was remembered as Gandhi. Throughout history people will always refer to him in a positive and respected light. Is that not a just reward for earthly actions? Then you speak of Dhamer, who murdered and commited unthinkable crimes. But he spent the last half of his life in prison, made to live in guilt and eventually die for the sins he commited on earth. He was despised and hated. And even now, he carries the stigma of being a horrible and merciless human being. Do you not think that he has been adequatly handed what he deserves for his earthly actions? As for Hitler, this was posted only hours ago by gazaUK:

I mean I'm not a big Michael Moore fan, but that Hitler thing seems a bit out of control don't you think. I've not seen Celsius but whateve credible it has as gone out the window if it compares a Right-Wing Fascist (probably the most evil man ever) to liberals.

Not only did this man live in the guilt of his own horrible deeds, but he ended up shooting himself in the head. Furthermore, he is left with the stigma of being "the most evil man ever." His wrong doings will forever be remembered... that is his punishment.
The actions of this life are judged in this life. But the actions of this life also seperate us from God, simply because they are less than perfect. So the only way to be able to enter heaven is by being able to use Christ's sacrifice to make you perfect in the eyes of God. This is granted to anyone that might take it. That is far more just that being held accountable for your crimes of the earth on earth and then again in heaven, don't you think?

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Is it not our actions here that God concerns himself with? That god involves himself with? He is with us always, but he cares not what we do? God is always with sheltering us and watching over us only for one simple decision? That just doesn't seem logical at all. God in his infinite wisdom made up a system like that?

Ehh?

 

[26 X World Champs]

This was your statement 26, the burden of proof lies on your head.

I have to prove to you that there ISN'T a heaven? How about I then prove that Bush is a genius? Both are beyond the limits of science. Not even Jesus could perform a miracle large enough to make Bush not stupid.

BTW - I also think it's really stupid to ask someone to prove something doesn't exist when there's never been even one iota of evidence that it does exist. Spare me the passages from the Bible say it does. That's not proof no matter how much you want it to be proof.

Wanna explian these quotes from the bible? They clearly prove that everything contained therein is fact!

"For I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever." (Jeremiah 3:12)
"Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever." (Jeremiah 17:4)

"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid." (John 5:31)
"Jesus answered: Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid." (John 8:14)

"And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18)
"the whole world is under control of the evil one." (1 John 5:19)

And Jesus said, "For judgement I am come into this world." (John 9:39)
"I came not to judge the world" (John 12:47)

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16)
"Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 6:1)

"Jacob said, 'I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'" (Genesis 32:30)
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)

We should fear God (Matthew 10:28)
We should love God (Matthew 22:37)
There is no fear in love (1 John 4:18)

Yeah, every single word in the bible is fact....

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

You know, if you keep taking the bible out of context you could probably find more of those...

The reason the books are called different names is because they were written by different people. Each with a different perspective of what was going on.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

Is it not our actions here that God concerns himself with? That god involves himself with? He is with us always, but he cares not what we do? God is always with sheltering us and watching over us only for one simple decision? That just doesn't seem logical at all. God in his infinite wisdom made up a system like that?

Ehh?

Why are you under the impression that he doesn't care what we do? Of course He cares. He wants us to follow His guidance because it means that we have a better life while we are alive. He gave us life to enjoy and have fun with, why would He not want us to live by the manual and make the very best out our life on earth that we can. But that does not mean that these actions then mean that these actions should be the basis for allowing us into heaven or not. Do you follow?

 

[sebastiansdreams]

I have to prove to you that there ISN'T a heaven? How about I then prove that Bush is a genius? Both are beyond the limits of science. Not even Jesus could perform a miracle large enough to make Bush not stupid.

BTW - I also think it's really stupid to ask someone to prove something doesn't exist when there's never been even one iota of evidence that it does exist. Spare me the passages from the Bible say it does. That's not proof no matter how much you want it to be proof.

I think it is equally if not more stupid to ask someone to prove the same thing doesn't exist. But yet you have made up your mind without having any basis at all except for this supposive lack of "evidence." So then, let's discuss this. Okay, so we can't know exactly what is held in the afterlife because no one has actually been dead for any amount of time and then come back to tell about it. But what about the countless number of white light instances? Is it completely psychological? How can one know? Is it not possible that the white light they saw was a glance at heaven or some sort of hearafter? The point is this: you cannot prove its inexistance any more than you can prove its inexistance, so, based on that, if you have no other factors outlying, then it is stupid to believe that there either is or isn't, because you have abolutely no idea. I have reason to believe in a heaven, because Jesus said so. But that is the only reason I believe. Otherwise, there is no evidence, and there is no evidence that there is not an afterlife either. So for you to believe one side or the other is pure speculation, I am going off of the trusted word of God on earth. And while my mother telling me that she loves me is not actually proof of it, I still believe her and would argue to you that she loves me and that argument would not be considered meritless.

As for the Biblical discrepencies, I am more than happy to step up to the challenge to show you verse per verse that they are not conflicting ideas when put into context. But would you rather me do it from the original Hebrew and Greek the way they were written (that will take a few days because I'll have to run by the house on the other side of town)t in or would you just take my word if I explain it from the Douy Rheims version?

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Why are you under the impression that he doesn't care what we do? Of course He cares. He wants us to follow His guidance because it means that we have a better life while we are alive. He gave us life to enjoy and have fun with, why would He not want us to live by the manual and make the very best out our life on earth that we can. But that does not mean that these actions then mean that these actions should be the basis for allowing us into heaven or not. Do you follow?

I understand completely and that's simply not what I believe. Of all the decisions we make, only one matters when it comes to the after life? All our other deeds good or bad are of no wieght considering if we chose wrong on that ONE that matters we still are sent to hell. That is strange, illogical, and almost twisted.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

I understand completely and that's simply not what I believe. Of all the decisions we make, only one matters when it comes to the after life? All our other deeds good or bad are of no wieght considering if we chose wrong on that ONE that matters we still are sent to hell. That is strange, illogical, and almost twisted.

Okay, then where is it that you get your concept of good = heaven and bad = hell?

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

I have my ideas when it comes to the afterlife though I have no way of knowing. I believe, AT LEAST, the good will be rewarded, the bad will be punished.

Is hell not a place of eternal suffering?

 

[Mixed View]

You must continue in God's grace and in faith in order to be God's child. You must accept Jesus to be your savior and love God to go to heaven. Then you must continue in faith and good deeds. Don't just do good deeds to get to heaven, but to them to be a helpful person to society.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

I have my ideas when it comes to the afterlife though I have no way of knowing. I believe, AT LEAST, the good will be rewarded, the bad will be punished.

Is hell not a place of eternal suffering?

But like I said before, the good are rewared and the bad are punished, but there are handed these judgements on earth, why should that judgement be echoed in eternity?

I'm not really sure that hell is a place of eternal suffering. I don't really think we have reason to believe that. I do believe it is a place void of God. And I do not believe that it is, as heaven is, void of sin, but that does not mean that it is fire and brim stone either. In fact, there is also the possibility that shoel and hades (the words used for Hell in the Bible) also simply mean grave. This means that there is a possibility that there is no afterlife for those who do not choose Christ. That, to me, is not eternal suffering, but rather it is simply... dead.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

I think it is perhaps more logical to think ALL of our actions and decisions effect the rest of our eternity rather than just one. You think none of our decisions grant merit when it comes to eternity accept only the one of if you accept christ or not.

This is something we can argue that I don't think either of us will ever concede. Shall we move on?

If got is both omiscent and omnipotent, wouldn't he know long before he created us that we were going to choose christ or not? Why go along with the ruse of humanity and life and sinners and christians?