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Has the GOP joined Al Qaeda?

Sure, domestically huh? Not anything overseas at all. Or did you forget how many diplomats died under his reign? As well as how many times we were hit and nothing was done. Somalia Ring any Bells?

Clinton totally decimated Saddam's military power, while keeping Iran in check, all while spending hardly any military capital with a no fly zone.

Bush spent $3T in Iraq, gave Iran hegemony over the area, and cost the lives of thousands of American soldiers and tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

Only in conservative bizarroworld was Clinton's policy a failure!
 
Clinton totally decimated Saddam's military power, while keeping Iran in check, all while spending hardly any military capital with a no fly zone.

Bush spent $3T in Iraq, gave Iran hegemony over the area, and cost the lives of thousands of American soldiers and tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

Only in conservative bizarroworld was Clinton's policy a failure!

No actually its according to World Historians. So it doesn't matter how much you want to put those fingers in your ears and say Ya don't want to hear it.

No matter how much you avoid the facts of what, was said. :lol:
 
Clinton totally decimated Saddam's military power, while keeping Iran in check, all while spending hardly any military capital with a no fly zone.

Bush spent $3T in Iraq, gave Iran hegemony over the area

Iran, hegemony; com'on really...? Elaborate.
 
Iran, hegemony; com'on really...? Elaborate.

It's clear Iran is the superpower in the region now. It was held in check by Iraq under Saddam, which is why of course Reagan armed Saddam. Leaving aside Israel, it has the most effective military (now unopposed by Iraq), the most functional economy (despite its dysfunctions) and the most influence on client states and movements. Not to mention its current threat of becoming a nuclear power.

By invading Iraq and leaving it in shambles, Bush basically gave the region over to Iran (which by the way is hopefully moderating -- it isn't an evil empire even if I despise its politics -- most urban Iranians are educated modern people), and it only cost us $3T. Saddam's military power was a myth -- Clinton had gutted it with sanctions and the no-fly zone -- but it was a useful myth in keeping Iran at bay.

Obviously the prudent policy would have been to support democratic elements in Iraq, which would have resulted in Saddam's overthrow in time. Instead Bush made a total balls of the region.
 
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I personally don't see the problem with Iran being the strongest in the region, though that's even debatable, and the reason is Iran is not the warmongering nation US politicians seem to like for us to believe they are. Look at the history, no, the long history of Iran and compare it to how many wars and bull**** conflicts the US has been involved in, yeah, see. The US has no credibility.
 
It's clear Iran is the superpower in the region now. It was held in check by Iraq under Saddam, which is why of course Reagan armed Saddam. Leaving aside Israel, it has the most effective military (now unopposed by Iraq), the most functional economy (despite its dysfunctions) and the most influence on client states and movements. Not to mention its current threat of becoming a nuclear power.

By invading Iraq and leaving it in shambles, Bush basically gave the region over to Iran (which by the way is hopefully moderating -- it isn't an evil empire even if I despise its politics -- most urban Iranians are educated modern people), and it only cost us $3T. Saddam's military power was a myth -- Clinton had gutted it with sanctions and the no-fly zone -- but it was a useful myth in keeping Iran at bay.

Obviously the prudent policy would have been to support democratic elements in Iraq, which would have resulted in Saddam's overthrow in time. Instead Bush made a total balls of the region.
Head, Bush did not leave Iraq in a shambles. Obama did.
 
Clinton totally decimated Saddam's military power, while keeping Iran in check, all while spending hardly any military capital with a no fly zone.

Bush spent $3T in Iraq, gave Iran hegemony over the area, and cost the lives of thousands of American soldiers and tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

Only in conservative bizarroworld was Clinton's policy a failure!

Correction there, Bush I deceimated Saddam's army. Clinton just maintained the status quo with no-fly zones. I will agree though GWB should have taken a page out of his father's book and realized invading Iraq would turn into a cluster**** with money and lives lost.
 
Head, Bush did not leave Iraq in a shambles. Obama did.

Iraq has been in shambles since we invaded it. THe only difference is the sides switched and instead of a corrupt person like Saddam we have a corrupt government running Iraq. Bush DID leave it in shambles and Obama conitnues it.
 
Iraq has been in shambles since we invaded it. THe only difference is the sides switched and instead of a corrupt person like Saddam we have a corrupt government running Iraq. Bush DID leave it in shambles and Obama conitnues it.
The last US troops left Iraq on December 18, 2011. Bush was not president then. Obama was. Bush didn't leave Iraq in a shambles. Obama made the decision for a precipitous withdrawal.
 
The last US troops left Iraq on December 18, 2011. Bush was not president then. Obama was. Bush didn't leave Iraq in a shambles. Obama made the decision for a precipitous withdrawal.

Leaving or staying, Iraq was in shambles. The U.S. is not a nationbuilder. You can try and blame Obama all you want, but there were deaths and terrorism during Bush's time in office in Iraq as well. I'm not excusing Obama's actions, but I'm not going to put ALL the blame on him either since it was in shambles before Bush left office.

What is your solution, indefinite occupation in Iraq?
 
Leaving or staying, Iraq was in shambles. The U.S. is not a nationbuilder. You can try and blame Obama all you want, but there were deaths and terrorism during Bush's time in office in Iraq as well. I'm not excusing Obama's actions, but I'm not going to put ALL the blame on him either since it was in shambles before Bush left office.

What is your solution, indefinite occupation in Iraq?
I wasn't in favor of the nation building effort at all with Iraq. I was in favor of keeping Iran in check, and maintaining some significant military presence in Iraq was one way to do that. Obama left the place precipitously - the military's assessment - not mine, although I agree. BTW, equating a significant presence with occupation is silly. We have a significant presence in many countries, and nobody considers that "occupation".
 
You are correct Next, and during the Reagan years Saddam was our ally. The problem really is long term, US foreign policy of interventionism, (constantly budding our nose in where it doesn't belong) that transcends presidencies. It is this one subject that Rand and Ron Paul are squarely correct about. For true national security, for the relief of tens/hundreds of thousands of civilians that are forever caught in the cross fires of our ill prosecuted wars, for US credibility and legitimacy abroad, for our own economic survival, Americans collectively need to rethink US foreign policy!
 
I wasn't in favor of the nation building effort at all with Iraq. I was in favor of keeping Iran in check, and maintaining some significant military presence in Iraq was one way to do that. Obama left the place precipitously - the military's assessment - not mine, although I agree. BTW, equating a significant presence with occupation is silly. We have a significant presence in many countries, and nobody considers that "occupation".

When the troops are out in the city patrolling, that is an occupation not a presense. Take a look at South Korea. We don't have the military patrolling the streets of South Korea. South Korea has a U.S. military presence, Iraq was an occupation.

Again, was your solution to just stay in Iraq indefinitely?
 
When the troops are out in the city patrolling, that is an occupation not a presense. Take a look at South Korea. We don't have the military patrolling the streets of South Korea. South Korea has a U.S. military presence, Iraq was an occupation.

Again, was your solution to just stay in Iraq indefinitely?
Again, you're making blanket statements regarding this stuff. Troops out patrolling is not occupation. Running the government, controlling the currency, confiscation of resources - that's an occupation. Don't tell me troops don't patrol in SK. They do. I truly don't care all that much about Iraq. I do care about Iran, and I believe as I said. The time table for an end to that presence would depend on other events and Iran - not the domestic political climate here, which can turn on a dime.
 
Again, you're making blanket statements regarding this stuff. Troops out patrolling is not occupation. Running the government, controlling the currency, confiscation of resources - that's an occupation. Don't tell me troops don't patrol in SK. They do. I truly don't care all that much about Iraq. I do care about Iran, and I believe as I said. The time table for an end to that presence would depend on other events and Iran - not the domestic political climate here, which can turn on a dime.

I was in Korea for over 6 years, the military does not PATROL the streets in South Korea. Yes, there are military vehicles that move from base to base, but they don't patrol the streets as law enforcement. Yes, Iraq was an occupation. When you have the military out in the streets patrolling that is an occupation. It's quite clear are you are doing is "Blame Obama" for everything while "praising Bush". Sorry, but BOTH are at fault for Iraq being in shambles.

You still refuse to answer the question, is your solution to stay in Iraq indefinitely then?
 
I was in Korea for over 6 years, the military does not PATROL the streets in South Korea. Yes, there are military vehicles that move from base to base, but they don't patrol the streets as law enforcement. Yes, Iraq was an occupation. When you have the military out in the streets patrolling that is an occupation. It's quite clear are you are doing is "Blame Obama" for everything while "praising Bush". Sorry, but BOTH are at fault for Iraq being in shambles.

You still refuse to answer the question, is your solution to stay in Iraq indefinitely then?
Oh, I'm not praising Bush at all. I'm not going to accept that the withdrawal from Iraq was Bush's decision. The timetable for withdrawal was always on the table, and was always a bone of contention between Congress, the Executive and the military. Obama made a politically motivated decision to withdraw when negotiations with Iraq became contentious - the Iraqis gave him an out and he took it in order to fulfill a political promise he'd already made and in spite of military objections. That's on him, not Bush. That US troops patrolled streets in Iraq was largely the result of inadequate Iraq forces - not an imposition of military rule. I do agree that US forces in SK don't perform that function, but it's because it isn't required. We occupied Germany and Japan for a period after WWII. What we did then was an occupation and the imposition of terms we dictated and enforced. And it wasn't limited to patrolling streets and law enforcement - it was dictatorial in every respect in the function of those countries. I'll answer the question you pose - even though you seem to be limiting it to either I'm in favor of indefinite presence or none at all - when you admit that withdrawal from Iraq was fashioned the way it happened under Obama's watch, and not Bush's. Obama is responsible. Not Bush.
 
Oh, I'm not praising Bush at all. I'm not going to accept that the withdrawal from Iraq was Bush's decision. The timetable for withdrawal was always on the table, and was always a bone of contention between Congress, the Executive and the military. Obama made a politically motivated decision to withdraw when negotiations with Iraq became contentious - the Iraqis gave him an out and he took it in order to fulfill a political promise he'd already made and in spite of military objections. That's on him, not Bush. That US troops patrolled streets in Iraq was largely the result of inadequate Iraq forces - not an imposition of military rule. I do agree that US forces in SK don't perform that function, but it's because it isn't required. We occupied Germany and Japan for a period after WWII. What we did then was an occupation and the imposition of terms we dictated and enforced. And it wasn't limited to patrolling streets and law enforcement - it was dictatorial in every respect in the function of those countries. I'll answer the question you pose - even though you seem to be limiting it to either I'm in favor of indefinite presence or none at all - when you admit that withdrawal from Iraq was fashioned the way it happened under Obama's watch, and not Bush's. Obama is responsible. Not Bush.

Oh the withdrawl did happen under Obama's watch, but the timing was no different than what Bush was proposing. Iraq is in shambles regardless of whether we withdraw or not. That's the nature of the M.E. I already said I blame Obama's decisions to keep interfering iwth the M.E. when we should leave it alone. I also agree it's Obama's decision to withdraw. However, what I won't do is blame Obama for Iraq being in shambles when it already was and would be whether we withdraw or not.

The lesson learned is we should not be involved in the M.E. in the capacity we were in Iraq under GWB.
 
You are correct Next, and during the Reagan years Saddam was our ally. The problem really is long term, US foreign policy of interventionism, (constantly budding our nose in where it doesn't belong) that transcends presidencies. It is this one subject that Rand and Ron Paul are squarely correct about. For true national security, for the relief of tens/hundreds of thousands of civilians that are forever caught in the cross fires of our ill prosecuted wars, for US credibility and legitimacy abroad, for our own economic survival, Americans collectively need to rethink US foreign policy!

Heya Monte. :2wave: Well you have to remember that Reagans ME Policy is what won us the Cold War.....just saying. Other wise Iraq would have came under Russian influence.
 
The Cold War was "fought" for forty years! You think when Reagan told Gorbachev to "tear down this wall" that was tuff speak and the Russians got skeered. The Soviet Union collapsed from within, mostly money problems. And the Cold War is ratcheting up again, have you paid any attention to Russian/Chinese military expenditures over the last 5-10 years? Putting "private" to the left doesn't conceal your lean.
 
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Heya Monte. :2wave: Well you have to remember that Reagans ME Policy is what won us the Cold War.....just saying. Other wise Iraq would have came under Russian influence.

Yes, however, Reagans strategy wasn't invading two Countries and trying to Nationbuild by ourselves practically.
 
Oh the withdrawl did happen under Obama's watch, but the timing was no different than what Bush was proposing. Iraq is in shambles regardless of whether we withdraw or not. That's the nature of the M.E. I already said I blame Obama's decisions to keep interfering iwth the M.E. when we should leave it alone. I also agree it's Obama's decision to withdraw. However, what I won't do is blame Obama for Iraq being in shambles when it already was and would be whether we withdraw or not.

The lesson learned is we should not be involved in the M.E. in the capacity we were in Iraq under GWB.
We surely shouldn't have attempted to provide a stability that was never there in the first place. Bush did sign on to leaving at nearly the same time. However, that was always subject to negotiations with Iraq on the presence that would remain after a significant withdrawal. That was a given. Obama abandoned that position pretty early in the negotiations, and as I said, I believe that was more driven by domestic political considerations than anything else. I'm interested in keeping Iran in check, and nuclear free. I do agree that meddling in the ME beyond our strict interests is foolish.
 
Yes, however, Reagans strategy wasn't invading two Countries and trying to Nationbuild by ourselves practically.

Heya TNE :2wave: .....exactly. So those that talk about Clinton and what he did with Iraq, is a moot point as the way was already paved. Which drove the Russians out. Reagan would have to liked to see the ME with Democracies too.

Except he was more of a realist.
 
Heya TNE :2wave: .....exactly. So those that talk about Clinton and what he did with Iraq, is a moot point as the way was already paved. Which drove the Russians out. Reagan would have to liked to see the ME with Democracies too.

Except he was more of a realist.

Well to be fair, that situation was for the Russians and Afghanistan. We can play what-if scenarios and none of us can be proven right or wrong as a solution for one problem (Reagans) may not have worked for Afghanistan or Iraq (Bush's).

What we do know is that the U.S. sucks as nation builders in Iraq so let's all learn from this and get the hell out of it. I didn't like much of what Bush I did, but I have the utmost respect for him on how he handled the Iraq/Kuwait crisis by not going all out and invading Iraq and toppling the government.
 
Well to be fair, that situation was for the Russians and Afghanistan. We can play what-if scenarios and none of us can be proven right or wrong as a solution for one problem (Reagans) may not have worked for Afghanistan or Iraq (Bush's).

What we do know is that the U.S. sucks as nation builders in Iraq so let's all learn from this and get the hell out of it. I didn't like much of what Bush I did, but I have the utmost respect for him on how he handled the Iraq/Kuwait crisis by not going all out and invading Iraq and toppling the government.

Well.....here is how World History takes a look at it. But you are Right about the Nation Building. Which is why Reagan wasn't about it to much. ;)

Four events were decisive.
1. The Reagan administration cemented Egypt, the largest and most important Arab country, into the U.S. alliance system.
2. Reagan oversaw the weakening of the Soviet’s strongest Arab ally, Iraq.
3. Middle East events forced the Soviet Union toward an (ultimately doomed) reconstruction of its economy.
4. Then the final shove: In 1985, the Reagan administration persuaded Saudi Arabia to increase oil production.

Between 1985 and 1986, Saudi Arabia increased oil production from two million barrels a day to five million barrels. The oil price tumbled as oil supply surged: from US$30 a barrel to US$20 in just a few months.

The effect on the Soviet economy was devastating. Oil was the Soviet Union’s main – practically only – exportable product, the most important source of hard currency for the economically stagnant regime.

As former Soviet prime minister Yegor Gaidar details in a 2006 book, the Saudi action cost the Soviet Union $20 billion a year, money that had been used to pay for food imports from the West. How to close the sudden financial gap? The Soviets borrowed from Western banks.

As the Soviet economy stalled, borrowing needs increased. By 1989, the Soviet Union needed US$100-billion to avoid food shortages. That desperate need for Western loans precluded any Soviet intervention when first Poland and then the rest of the Warsaw Pact shook off Soviet rule in the spring, summer and fall of 1989.

The Reagan administration’s Middle East policy broke the Soviet empire. But no political achievement lasts forever. The price of oil has soared again, re-empowering Russia and other bad actors like Venezuela and Iran.

The Reagan policy has run its course, as all policies do. But no statesman is expected to solve the problems of all time. The 40th President of the United States magnificently surmounted the problems of his time. We honor Ronald Reagan most not by replicating him, but by emulating him: by doing not what he did, but as he did. He was the right leader for his time. Modern conservatives need to discover the right leadership for their time.....snip~

How Reagan’s Mideast Policy Won the Cold War


The main lines of Reagan's record on democracy promotion can therefore be summarized fairly briefly: Reagan distinguished between allies and adversaries. In relation to U.S. adversaries, Reagan issued ringing and sincere denunciations of undemocratic practices in order to indicate moral concern as well as to weaken hostile regimes. In relation to American allies, on the other hand, Reagan was usually much more circumspect, because he understood that to destabilize an autocratic but U.S.-aligned government might very well lead to something worse. There was certainly some movement toward more pointed forms of pro-democracy pressure on U.S. allies during Reagan's second term, but even then, Reagan's first instinct was always to bolster, support, and reassure allies, rather than to critique them......snip~

RealClearPolitics - Conservative Foreign Policy & Reagan's Legacy

http://www.debatepolitics.com/afric...-hit-christian-churches-3.html#post1062210950
 
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