Has Civilization Peaked?

Is the Matrix correct that we peaked in the late '90s? We can certainly become more technically advanced, as long as society doesn't keep unraveling. But the driving point is, do we even know what human progress looks like anymore, beyond money? And though money and modernization have produced a more prosperous world, is there a cost by focusing so heavily on tech and finance that we're creating an imbalance that does not serve the greater good?

I remember how mature my parents were at a young age, way more than me, and I don't see the same intense focus on priorities in this generation. We're becoming confused with misinformation and emotional bias. Everyone is up in everyone else's business when they should be concerned about getting their own house in order.

We need to figure this out quickly before the problems get out of control and someone hits the reset button.

Do we need a better understanding of 'progress'?

A growing and influential intellectual movement aims to understand why human progress happens – and how to speed it up. Garrison Lovely investigates.

www.bbc.com

 

[ataraxia]

True, but whenever capitalism was most "unfettered" living standards rose the fastest - both in America and England. Conversely, the countries which are the most socialist always end up being the poorest.

The closest anyone ever came to pure capitalism was in the early industrial revolution, with the rise of robber barons and exploitation of child labor. The idea was that if you just leave the system free long enough, the money was eventually going to benefit the poor families and children as well. It wasn’t happening. The monopolists were becoming wealthier than entire nations, and there was no rise in living standards among their workers. Not only was the exploitation of child labor not getting better by itself, it kept getting worse.

In fact, it was getting so bad that violent communist parties were making gains in the polls, especially in Europe, and there was threat of violent revolt. Capitalism was finally saved from communism by liberals who instituted some basic, common sense measures like workplace safety laws, child labor laws, minimum wage laws, mandatory weekend hours, etc…

You're right, it's not because of they're stupid. It's because government intervention has all kinds of benefits for the state - but little to no benefit for consumers.

A good example of what happens if you just leave the free market entirely free is what has happened to the over-the-counter drug market. The idea was that if you lift the FDA from regulating the over the counter medications, the free market would self regulate and ensure the highest quality products to the consumers. It makes sense, doesn’t it?

That is not what has happened.

The over-the-counter drug market has become a mess. There is no quality control. There is no truth in advertising. What is written on the label often has very little to do with what’s actually inside the bottle. Consumer safety sites have tried to regulate this, and inform consumers. But people are too busy to read any of that stuff. And there has just been too much of an explosion of new products and brands often selling nothing more than sawdust and literally snake oil for consumer safety sites to be able to keep up.

The free market, left unregulated by government, is not self regulating or sustainable. The amount of experience showing this is becoming extensive.

At this point, arguing otherwise is based only on wishful and magical thinking, almost a religious faith, rather than on any objective understanding of how the market works based on practical experience and observation of how things actually work in the real world.

The free market is a powerful tool, to be sure. No one is denying that- but not an all powerful deity to be worshiped blindly. Unlike any powerful tool, it has to be used judiciously and with extensive safety regulations and guards.

 

[aociswundumho]

The closest anyone ever came to pure capitalism was in the early industrial revolution, with the rise of robber barons and exploitation of child labor. The idea was that if you just leave the system free long enough, the money was eventually going to benefit the poor families and children as well. It wasn’t happening. The monopolists were becoming wealthier than entire nations, and there was no rise in living standards among their workers. Not only was the exploitation of child labor not getting better by itself, it kept getting worse.

The children were already working on the family farms ten hours a day. You leftists can't seem to accept that fact that in poor countries, children have to work. If they can't work legally, then they end up dealing drugs or becoming prostitutes.
The only thing that has eliminated child labor is the wealth created by capitalism.

A good example of what happens if you just leave the free market entirely free is what has happened to the over-the-counter drug market. The idea was that if you lift the FDA from regulating the over the counter medications, the free market would self regulate and ensure the highest quality products to the consumers. It makes sense, doesn’t it?

No, it doesn't make sense. As usual, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Consider the black market for marijuana. It's completely unregulated. Does it follow that weed buyers in this market only receive "the highest quality products"? I've been buying weed since I was 13, and let me assure you that you are completely wrong.

The over-the-counter drug market has become a mess. There is no quality control. There is no truth in advertising. What is written on the label often has very little to do with what’s actually inside the bottle. Consumer safety sites have tried to regulate this, and inform consumers. But people are too busy to read any of that stuff. And there has just been too much of an explosion of new products and brands often selling nothing more than sawdust and literally snake oil for consumer safety sites to be able to keep up.

Note that you are referring to one of the most highly regulated markets in the country, and you are admitting that government regulation has been a complete failure by your own standards.

The free market, left unregulated by government, is not self regulating or sustainable. The amount of experience showing this is becoming extensive.

Lol, you do realize that the FDA causes thousands of deaths every year by keeping life saving drugs off the market? From the left-wing rag vox:

What if the FDA has always been broken?​

George Mason University economist Alex Tabarrok has been beating this drum since long before Covid-19 was a concern. Tabarrok, a leading libertarian thinker advocating for institutional reform of the FDA, gained traction criticizing America’s pandemic response. Recently, I asked the economist: what if this goes beyond Covid-19?

Tabarrok has coined a haunting phrase to describe his concerns with the agency: “The FDA is conservative because when it approves a bad drug, its error is visible, but when it fails to approve good drugs, the dead are buried in an invisible graveyard.”

Of course Milton Friedman was saying this as far back as the 60s.

 

[ataraxia]

The children were already working on the family farms ten hours a day. You leftists can't seem to accept that fact that in poor countries, children have to work. If they can't work legally, then they end up dealing drugs or becoming prostitutes.

Sure. There were rumors that they could improve their lot because there was news that a lot of wealth was being generated in the new factories. The hope was that eventually all that new wealth was going to get to them. It didn't--- at least until some basic regulations were made.

The only thing that has eliminated child labor is the wealth created by capitalism.

No. This is not a matter of opinion. Ask any historian or economist.

Consider the black market for marijuana. It's completely unregulated. Does it follow that weed buyers in this market only receive "the highest quality products"? I've been buying weed since I was 13, and let me assure you that you are completely wrong.

Take a look at this picture of the retina of a patient:



You see those little white dots? This is a patient got their IV cocaine injection on the free market. Those are the talc crystals stuck in the retinal capillaries which were mixed in with the cocaine- to make more money by the vendor. They have clogged the capillaries of the retina. The retina distal to those usually dies because the capillary to that area has been clogged and blocked off by the crystal. A similar thing happens in the capillaries of the brain, as the circulation to the brain and eye are served by branches of the same arteries. It causes mini-strokes in the brain. These are often small enough that the patient does not notice the small blind spots in their peripheral vision or minor neurologic deficits created by the mini-strokes- maybe some weakness of the arms and legs, or difficulty finding words, etc... By the time they notice anything else going on they are likely so confused and messed up that they pose no threat to anyone. By that point they may not even recognize they have a problem. The magic of the free market at work, right?

Note that you are referring to one of the most highly regulated markets in the country, and you are admitting that government regulation has been a complete failure by your own standards.




Lol, you do realize that the FDA causes thousands of deaths every year by keeping life saving drugs off the market? From the left-wing rag vox:



Of course Milton Friedman was saying this as far back as the 60s.

Take a look at these babies. They were born with malformed or absent limbs:

Thalidomide scandal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why? They were born before the advent of the FDA. A new drug had been introduced called Thalidomide. It was hailed as a miracle drug, and marketed aggressively all over the world before any large scale studies were done. It turns out it does this to babies if a pregnant woman takes this medicine. It was a public health disaster, as thousands of babies around the world were being born like this until the connection to Thalidomide was made. It was one of the reasons the FDA was strengthened. Since then, countless medicines offered by the free market have been rejected by the FDA before they hit the market like this. Do you really want to go back to the magic of the free market like this?

 

[Exquisitor]

Would you like to make sense or do you prefer to sound like Edgar Allen Poe trying to write on a heavy-opium day?

Poe.

 

[aociswundumho]

Sure. There were rumors that they could improve their lot because there was news that a lot of wealth was being generated in the new factories. The hope was that eventually all that new wealth was going to get to them. It didn't--- at least until some basic regulations were made.

None of that has anything to do with child labor.

No. This is not a matter of opinion. Ask any historian or economist.

How about we ask left-wing economist Paul Krugman:

For example, could anything be worse than having children work in sweatshops? Alas, yes. In 1993, child workers in Bangladesh were found to be producing clothing for Wal-Mart, and Senator Tom Harkin proposed legislation banning imports from countries employing underage workers. The direct result was that Bangladeshi textile factories stopped employing children. But did the children go back to school? Did they return to happy homes? Not according to Oxfam, which found that the displaced child workers ended up in even worse jobs, or on the streets -- and that a significant number were forced into prostitution.

Not that you would even care about the results of your depsicable ideology, all that matters to you is if you are able to signal your virtue to other leftists.

Take a look at this picture of the retina of a patient:

You see those little white dots? This is a patient got their IV cocaine injection on the free market.

No, he got it on the black market. This is no different than bathtub gin causing blindness when progressives outlawed alcohol in the 1920s.

Take a look at these babies. They were born with malformed or absent limbs:

Why? They were born before the advent of the FDA. A new drug had been introduced called Thalidomide.

Good Lord, how could you be so clueless? Aren't you even a little bit embarrassed discussing something which you know nothing about? The FDA was created 50 years before Thalidomide, and it was the FDA which kept Thalidomide off the market in the US. But that doesn't offset the damage that the FDA does by keeping life saving drugs off the market:

 

[ataraxia]

No, he got it on the black market. This is no different than bathtub gin causing blindness when progressives outlawed alcohol in the 1920s.

Sure. The black market is a type of free market. Why wouldn't it be?

 

[gboisjo]

There are no pure capitalist countries anywhere in the world today- or, for that matter, at any point in history. It's not because they are all too stupid to appreciate the power of pure unregulated and unmitigated capitalism.

Well you got a few on this thread talking like Capitalist. Lets exploit the Arctic regions for resources and when we're done with that, our Solar System.

True, but whenever capitalism was most "unfettered" living standards rose the fastest - both in America and England. Conversely, the countries which are the most socialist always end up being the poorest.

You mean like Denmark, Sweden and Norway ..the most satisfied people on the face of the Earth.

As opposed to the slaughterhouse we've become.

 

[gboisjo]

There is no current evidence of life in the solar system. Life somewhere deep under Europa or Ganymede is thought to be possible, but many scientists are skeptical... it would probably be bacteria or simple prokaryotes if there is.

For most people, people who are interested in science and what NASA is all about ..finding one cell life on a Jovian moon would be mind blowing.

Its the same thing with Perseverance on Mars except its fossils they're looking for.

Before we start ****ing these environments up with strip mining, etc., science has business to conduct.

 

[gboisjo]

The closest anyone ever came to pure capitalism was in the early industrial revolution, with the rise of robber barons and exploitation of child labor. The idea was that if you just leave the system free long enough, the money was eventually going to benefit the poor families and children as well. It wasn’t happening. The monopolists were becoming wealthier than entire nations, and there was no rise in living standards among their workers. Not only was the exploitation of child labor not getting better by itself, it kept getting worse.

You mean when 10 years were being exploited for cheap labor in mines and factories.

Unfettered, unrestricted Capitalism is nothing short of a disease, it brings out the worse in humanity as the Industrial age proved.

Climbing out of that cesspool took regulation after regulation fought every inch of the way by Conservative money grubbers.

 

[gboisjo]

The only thing that has eliminated child labor is the wealth created by capitalism.

Your statement is total BS.

Laws and regulations were eventually enacted.

 

[gboisjo]

Consider the black market for marijuana. It's completely unregulated. Does it follow that weed buyers in this market only receive "the highest quality products"? I've been buying weed since I was 13, and let me assure you that you are completely wrong.

Are you high now?

 

[Goshin]

For most people, people who are interested in science and what NASA is all about ..finding one cell life on a Jovian moon would be mind blowing.

Its the same thing with Perseverance on Mars except its fossils they're looking for.

Before we start ****ing these environments up with strip mining, etc., science has business to conduct.

And there will be a lot of science done, before any major industrial development occurs.

It will be a LONG time before space industry reaches Ganymede or Europa. Probably 10-20 years before Mars sees any significant industrialization, and another 30-50 before it scales up.

Meanwhile the Moon and the asteroids are chock full of resources and there's no life there to harm. There's no reason not to go, and many reasons in favor.

 

[PirateMk1]

And there will be a lot of science done, before any major industrial development occurs.

It will be a LONG time before space industry reaches Ganymede or Europa. Probably 10-20 years before Mars sees any significant industrialization, and another 30-50 before it scales up.

Meanwhile the Moon and the asteroids are chock full of resources and there's no life there to harm. There's no reason not to go, and many reasons in favor.

70% of our planet is covered in water much of which has been only cursorily observed. I bet we can find resources there too.

 

[a777pilot]

Why do y'all think that humans would never recover from an all out nuclear war?

From 1945 till 1980, there have been over 520 nuclear detonations above ground totaling over 479 megatons.

We are still here.

 

[a777pilot]

70% of our planet is covered in water much of which has been only cursorily observed. I bet we can find resources there too.

We know more about the Moon than we do about the depths of our oceans.

 

[TypicalRussian]

Maybe. And Roman civilization peaked around 100 AD. What about it?

we are in decline years

 

[dmpi]

We don't even know what it is to have a 'good and meaningful' life. And that's just for one person.

 

[RobertU]

The dinosaurs & other reptiles peaked 65M years ago. Now we see them in museums & the movies.

Extinction in the air
dinosaurs everywhere

 

[ecofarm]

Things get better every generation. More rights are observed and protected, and the legal system becomes more inclusive and just. The days of black people being property in America are long past and the days of justice for black people are on the horizon. Gay people are no longer murdered by the state. Things have gotten a lot ****ing better in just a couple centuries.

"The best days are behind us" is bs spewed by bigots. Always a bigot. No exception. You will never hear a minority claim, "best days behind us." Only scumbag white men. Everyone else is looking for justice in a better tomorrow.

"Best days behind us" is like a password spoken at an inbred militia compound. Can't say it without proving one is a piece of shit.

 

[gboisjo]

Things get better every generation. More rights are observed and protected, and the legal system becomes more inclusive and just. The days of black people being property in America are long past and the days of justice for black people are on the horizon. Gay people are no longer murdered by the state. Things have gotten a lot ****ing better in just a couple centuries.

"The best days are behind us" is bs spewed by bigots. Always a bigot. No exception. You will never hear a minority claim, "best days behind us." Only scumbag white men. Everyone else is looking for justice in a better tomorrow.

"Best days behind us" is like a password spoken at an inbred militia compound. Can't say it without proving one is a piece of shit.

What planet do you live on ..so much hate.

 

[HangLow]

Yes the Capitalism in China... They have has the fastest growing middle class for decades and GM sell more cars there than in the U.S.

In China today, poverty refers mainly to the rural poor, decades of economic development has reduced urban extreme poverty.[1][2][3] According to the World Bank, more than 850 million Chinese people have been lifted out of extreme poverty

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China#:~:text=According to the World Bank,purchasing price parity terms,which

​

 

[Exquisitor]

We don't even know what it is to have a 'good and meaningful' life. And that's just for one person.

Is that what you've manifest for yourself?

 

[Exquisitor]

We don't even know what it is to have a 'good and meaningful' life. And that's just for one person.

To enjoy, someone must suffer, so you propose a regime of oppression, to increase your enjoyment and secure it for millennia as you take birth in the "winners," but then it will be your turn.

 

[Exquisitor]

human nature being what it is (i.e. self absorbed AND self centered) 99.999% of the population don't want to face the simple fact that there are limits to growth (on a finite planet),... if you have not heard of the concept it was a systematic model developed at MIT back in the early 1970s

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Limits_to_Growth

the limits to growth (on a finite planet) is typically illustrated using the info graphic that shows the relationship of various variables

but not everyone can relate so FWIW

as far as civilization peaking in the 90's personally find demographic arguments useful AND it points to the fact that 2019 (the year before covid) was the global economic, industrial output AND food production peak



AND since you mentioned "money" (here is a demographic argument that 99.999% of traders can't come to terms with)

Peter Zeihan | Top Traders Unplugged

"So, for example, the United States has been able to, somehow, through some excellent work, basically read Putin's email and the emails and phone records of everyone in the inner circle and everyone in military planning. So, when we were getting within a couple of weeks of the invasion, the...

www.toptradersunplugged.com

as far as the reset button,... there is an expression,... "Those Who Do Not Learn History Are Doomed To Repeat It"

thousands of years ago the bronze age collapse happened



in South Western part of the USA and in Central America (about a thousand years ago) there were periods of severe drought that caused organized societies to collapse

Cannibalism, Warfare, and Drought in the Mesa Verde Region during the Twelfth Century A.D. | American Antiquity | Cambridge Core

Cannibalism, Warfare, and Drought in the Mesa Verde Region during the Twelfth Century A.D. - Volume 65 Issue 1

www.cambridge.org

DROUGHT AND THE MAYA COLLAPSE | Ancient Mesoamerica | Cambridge Core

DROUGHT AND THE MAYA COLLAPSE - Volume 18 Issue 2

www.cambridge.org

seems 99.999% of people don't know their history,... so the unfortunate truth is history will again most likely reset (just sayin)

And we're going to grow ourselves out of debt.

There's an equation that describes limited growth, it sets up yearly cycles or two, three year cycles and cascade events and things like chaotic flows.

X n+1 =RX n (1-X n).

 

[TypicalRussian]

And we're going to grow ourselves out of debt.

There's an equation that describes limited growth, it sets up yearly cycles or two, three year cycles and cascade events and things like chaotic flows.

X n+1 =RX n (1-X n).

love that channel