happy or athiest

[sangha]

atheism is the antithesis of theism. it only deals with a belief/disbelief in gods just like theism.

just because you dont believe in a god doesn't mean your worldview is based on fact or critical thinking or evidence. same with theists.

there is no atheist worldview just as there is no single theistic worldview.

True, but many atheists are convinced that god does not exist. Every group has its' extremists, unfortunately

 

[hallam]

I was responding to a post of yours that reffered to "western society". It said nothing about the Buddha. And while some schools of Buddhism do require a belief in the supernatural, some do not. Therefore, the claim that Buddhism requires a belief in the supernatural is demonstrably false.

I guess I am more practical here. The two largest sects of which the majority practice include metaphysics. I am okay modifying my previous statement that most Buddhism as practiced in its natural form includes metaphysics. But considering that India is the home of the largest practicing forms of Buddhism, I am okay with giving them "first claims" to the title so to speak.

I disagreed with just about everything you say here

I am okay with this.

 

[hallam]

atheism is the antithesis of theism. it only deals with a belief/disbelief in gods just like theism.

just because you dont believe in a god doesn't mean your worldview is based on fact or critical thinking or evidence. same with theists.

there is no atheist worldview just as there is no single theistic worldview.

In this sub-conversation, nothing I said is off base pertaining to atheism. There is no reason to believe that atheism allows for the afterlife in the theoretical sense, individuals exceptions not withstanding.

 

[scourge99]

True, but many atheists are convinced that god does not exist.

which god? there are thousands proposed by man and hundreds of variations among even the christian god.

and i agree that many atheists are convinced that particular gods do not exist. Very few atheists claim that particular gods cannot possibly exist. There is a difference between belief, knowledge, and absolute certainty that you arent addressing here.

 

[sangha]

I guess I am more practical here. The two largest sects of which the majority practice include metaphysics. I am okay modifying my previous statement that most Buddhism as practiced in its natural form includes metaphysics. But considering that India is the home of the largest practicing forms of Buddhism, I am okay with giving them "first claims" to the title so to speak.




I am okay with this.

I agree that most buddhists believe in the supernatural.

 

[sangha]

which god? there are thousands proposed by man and hundreds of variations among even the christian god..

All of them and I have heard many atheists claim that "a belief in a deity is a sign of mental illness" and "there is/are no god(s)"

 

[scourge99]

There is no reason to believe that atheism allows for the afterlife in the theoretical sense, individuals exceptions not withstanding.

atheism does not address an afterlife. atheism/theism is about belief in gods. nothing more. nothing less.

if someone is a theist it doesnt imply that they believe or disbelieve in an afterlife. same with atheists.

 

[hallam]

atheism does not address an afterlife. atheism/theism is about belief in gods. nothing more. nothing less.

if someone is a theist it doesnt imply that they believe or disbelieve in an afterlife. same with atheists.

This is a false limitation to atheism. Atheism disallows belief in God and everything that goes with God including the afterlife. Your terminology limitations do not translate into all that atheism is. You are trying to pick a fight here. But just like your bait to Sangha, it is a worthless debate. Eventually, you will ask what I believe to try to attack me personally.

 

[Guy Incognito]

atheism does not address an afterlife. atheism/theism is about belief in gods. nothing more. nothing less.

if someone is a theist it doesnt imply that they believe or disbelieve in an afterlife. same with atheists.

Scourge, you're making some pretty sweeping statements. Why do you feel the need to ascribe your own narrow brand of passive atheism to all atheists generally. There are plenty of atheists who do address the issue of an afterlife in the negative.

 

[scourge99]

All of them and I have heard many atheists claim that "a belief in a deity is a sign of mental illness" and "there is/are no god(s)"

so your reasoning is that because in your experience many atheists do X or say Y then all atheists do X and say Y. I.E., you are going to redefine atheism acvording to your experiences with atheists.

personally i think you are being dishonest. even on this board you will find very few if any atheists who claim all gods, including ones not yet proposed, cannot possibly exist.

 

[sangha]

so your reasoning is that because in your experience many atheists do X or say Y then all atheists do X and say Y. I.E., you are going to redefine atheism acvording to your experiences with atheists.

personally i think you are being dishonest. even on this board you will find very few if any atheists who claim all gods, including ones not yet proposed, cannot possibly exist.

No, not my reasonsing and since I never said that, your claim is irrational. Why do you believe such nonsense?

 

[scourge99]

Atheism disallows belief in God and everything that goes with God including the afterlife.

the idea of an afterlife is in no way contingent upon belief in a god.

 

[sangha]

the idea of an afterlife is in no way contingent upon belief in a god.

Correct, it is contingent on a belief in the supernatural

 

[scourge99]

Scourge, you're making some pretty sweeping statements. Why do you feel the need to ascribe your own narrow brand of passive atheism to all atheists generally. There are plenty of atheists who do address the issue of an afterlife in the negative.

what sweeping statemnts am i making exactly? how am i being narrow? my definition includes all people who aren't theists. your definition does not.

did you just makeup the term "passive atheism"?

there are plenty of theists who claim there is only one god. does that mean all theists believe in only a single god? no. so why do you insist that because some, most, or many atheists do or say X then atheism should be defined solely by those people?
go ahead and define atheists that way if you want. all you'll be doing is making strawmen when you debate atheists.

 

[scourge99]

Correct, it is contingent on a belief in the supernatural

and by definition gods do not encompass all that is supernatural. thus atheists can believe in the supernatural by definition (just not gods).

 

[Guy Incognito]

what sweeping statemnts am i making exactly? how am i being narrow? my definition includes all people who aren't theists.

You're trying to ascribe your particular beliefs to all atheists. You have a sort of agnostic-atheism, whereas a strong atheist might make truth-claims about the nonexistence of divinity or afterlife. You should speak only for yourself. Atheists are a diverse bunch.

your definition does not.

did you just makeup the term "passive atheism"?

No, somebody else did. They said they preferred it to "weak atheism," a term coined by Dawkins for your particular brand of atheism.

there are plenty of theists who claim there is only one god. does that mean all theists believe in only a single god? no. so why do you insist that because some, most, or many atheists do or say X then atheism should be defined solely by those people?
go ahead and define atheists that way if you want. all you'll be doing is making strawmen when you debate atheists.

Do you remember what you said? You said that atheists don't say there is no afterlife. Well, some actually do.

I never debate against atheism. I approve of atheism and I wouldn't try to encourage anybody to believe in any particular religion or to stray from their own religious path.

I'm only too happy to correct misstatements of fact, no matter what the religion of the person making them.

You need to limit yourself to speaking for yourself. You might not make truth claims about the afterlife, but that doesn't mean all atheists feel the same way.

 

[Tucker Case]

I have a theory I’d like to run by you people. Unhappy people are atheist, they want life to be over and hope that when you die that’s it; you just go to sleep forever. Happy people tend to look for someone to thank and turn to god; they like life and want more of it.

What makes you think that atheism is a decision made due to a desire a person has?

I'm an atheist for the same reason that many people I know are atheists. The concepts of religion just don't make any logical sense to us. I wish I could believe, but I can't. The reason I wish I could beleive is becuase I would love to live forever in happy land. I like myself, I love life, and don't want any of it to come to an end. I want to see my great great grandchildren. I know I wont, but I want to. If there is this magical happy land, I just might get that chance instead of ceasing to exist.

My atheism has nothing to do with my desires. It has everything to do with what I can, or cannot, suspend disbelief about.

 

[scourge99]

You're trying to ascribe your particular beliefs to all atheists.

All im doing is providing the most consistent and accurate definition for theism/atheism. my personal beliefs about gods are irrelevant. your only objection is an asinine accusation of personal self interest. it is absolutely silly that you claim to know my personal thoughts and motivations. and even more silly that you think such passes as a legitmate and thoughtful response.

You have a sort of agnostic-atheism, whereas a strong atheist might make truth-claims about the nonexistence of divinity or afterlife.

did you notice that "strong atheists" and "agnostic atheists" are BOTH atheists? that is, they both fall under the general term "atheist". why do you suppose that is?

No, somebody else did. They said they preferred it to "weak atheism," a term coined by Dawkins for your particular brand of atheism.

you said "passive-atheism", not "weak atheism". what is a "passive atheist"? did you make up that term?

Do you remember what you said? You said that atheists don't say there is no afterlife. Well, some actually do.

no. i said that the term "atheist" does not explicitly or implicitly have anything to do with a belief (or disbelief) in the afterlife. iow, an atheist can believe or disbelieve in an afterlife and still be correctly labeled as an atheist. that some many or most atheists disbelieve in an afterlife or dont like chocolate cake is irrelevant to their classification as atheists.

Hallam disagrees. he claims that if you believe in an afterlife then you cant be considered an atheist because he defines atheism in some very narrow and strange way that no one but him does.

I never debate against atheism.

debating atheism only makes sense when in contrast to theism.

I wouldn't try to encourage anybody to believe in any particular religion or to stray from their own religious path.

debating, preaching, and proselytizing are very different things. apparently you do not recognize the difference.

You might not make truth claims about the afterlife, but that doesn't mean all atheists feel the same way.

this is a strawman ive addressed above.

 

[Anarcho-fascist]

You're trying to ascribe your particular beliefs to all atheists.

Are you saying that if someone is an atheist they must not believe in an afterlife?

 

[Guy Incognito]

Are you saying that if someone is an atheist they must not believe in an afterlife?

No, I'm saying they may or may not believe in an afterlife. You cannot ascribe the same beliefs to all athiests. Some make stronger claims about religion than others.

 

[Anarcho-fascist]

I put off writing a response to a certain post by Captain Courtesy, I believe it was the second part of a two part response to one of my posts. Now I can't tell if I've replied to it or not. I gave up trying to organize the conversation in a text editor after considering how a 3D thread display might work.

 

[hallam]

Are you saying that if someone is an atheist they must not believe in an afterlife?

I will say they can't unless the atheists who do are extremely inconsistent. Some theists can get away with believing in the afterlife but not believing in God. But then they are theists; they believe can in metaphysics. But an atheists could not support a metaphysical argument for the afterlife and then try to support an argument against God which requires metaphysics. There is no rationale claim here for this no matter what Scourge thinks. if an atheists claims some type of afterlife, then they are not an atheist.

 

[Anarcho-fascist]

No, I'm saying they may or may not believe in an afterlife. You cannot ascribe the same beliefs to all athiests. Some make stronger claims about religion than others.

Then you agree with scourge.

 

[Anarcho-fascist]

I will say they can't unless the atheists who do are extremely inconsistent. Some theists can get away with believing in the afterlife but not believing in God. But then they are theists; they believe can in metaphysics. But an atheists could not support a metaphysical argument for the afterlife and then try to support an argument against God which requires metaphysics. There is no rationale claim here for this no matter what Scourge thinks. if an atheists claims some type of afterlife, then they are not an atheist.

You are just using a different definition.

 

[hallam]

You are just using a different definition.

No, God and the afterlife fall within the same broad category of metaphysics. There is no disputing this. The categories and arguments which disqualifies God disqualify the afterlife. To say that an atheists can somehow make these two positions (belief in the afterlife but not believing in God) consistent and logical is impossible. By invalidating one, you invalidates the other. These positions are not solitary. They do not exist in a vacuum. They come with support, secondary beliefs, arguments, premises, assumptions, and suppositions just to name a few. That is why if an atheist believes in the afterlife, then they are not an atheists. The atheists believing in metaphysics makes that atheists a theists. And they are theists no matter what they categories themselves as. Eventually, the cognitive dissidence in the person will fracture and the person will eventually turn away from one of these two positions unless they turn to a theistic belief structure which corrects for this dissidence.