Hamas admits 600-700 of its men were killed in Cast Lead

[Gardener]

So who might those people be Gardener? Is this aimed at specific people on this forum, it's rather unlike you to be obtuse?

The people in question would be anybody who supports Palestinian terrorism based upon their history of rhetoric on the subject, their pattern of talking points and the arguments they advance, whether they actually admit they support Palestinian terrorism or not.

If a person has no history of such rhetoric, they certainly need not worry such comments were directed at them.

The truth of the matter is that these "policemen" were armed members of a terrorist organization, were conscripted from the ranks of the most dedicated terrorist pool, and served dual roles. They were not policemen in the ordinary sense of the word since they were also members of a terrorist militia.

Those who support Hamas are certainly free to advance the notion that these terrorists were somehow innocent. Hopefully, those who do not support Hamas will continue to be free to disagree. The Goldstone Report represents one facet of the world-wide propaganda effort geared towards eliminating the ability of those who do not support Hamas to point out the truth.

 

[William Rea]

The people in question would be anybody who supports Palestinian terrorism based upon their history of rhetoric on the subject, their pattern of talking points and the arguments they advance, whether they actually admit they support Palestinian terrorism or not.

If a person has no history of such rhetoric, they certainly need not worry such comments were directed at them.

The truth of the matter is that these "policemen" were armed members of a terrorist organization, were conscripted from the ranks of the most dedicated terrorist pool, and served dual roles. They were not policemen in the ordinary sense of the word since they were also members of a terrorist militia.

Those who support Hamas are certainly free to advance the notion that these terrorists were somehow innocent. Hopefully, those who do not support Hamas will continue to be free to disagree. The Goldstone Report represents one facet of the world-wide propaganda effort geared towards eliminating the ability of those who do not support Hamas to point out the truth.

OK, I'll just allow the fact that you cannot give a simple direct answer speak for itself for the other posters.

I certainly won't be drawn into the cesspool and the cowardice of staying just within the rules of the forum while smearing other members of it. You are clearly NOT "somewhat unambigiuous".

 

[Gardener]

staying just within the rules of the forum .

.......and apparantly, you feel no similar compunction, yourself.

 

[Tashah]

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[justabubba]

The people in question would be anybody who supports Palestinian terrorism based upon their history of rhetoric on the subject, their pattern of talking points and the arguments they advance, whether they actually admit they support Palestinian terrorism or not.

If a person has no history of such rhetoric, they certainly need not worry such comments were directed at them.

The truth of the matter is that these "policemen" were armed members of a terrorist organization, were conscripted from the ranks of the most dedicated terrorist pool, and served dual roles. They were not policemen in the ordinary sense of the word since they were also members of a terrorist militia.

Those who support Hamas are certainly free to advance the notion that these terrorists were somehow innocent. Hopefully, those who do not support Hamas will continue to be free to disagree. The Goldstone Report represents one facet of the world-wide propaganda effort geared towards eliminating the ability of those who do not support Hamas to point out the truth.

please share with us in what way the Goldstone report is an element within a world-wide propaganda effort geared toward eliminating the ability of those who do not support Hamas to point out the truth

for extra credit, please identify this "truth" you feel deprived of expressing

 

[Apocalypse]

The police forces have to actually be an arm of the military to make it a legitimate military target as an institution.

That's a flat out lie, the police forces have to be used for military purposes for them to be considered as military targets thus legit targets.

Some acted as militants, though the words of the Interior Minister suggest most were not, but that does not justify attacking the police forces as they are independent of the military.

Not when their objectives are similar to that of the military they aren't.

So are you saying Hamas-run schools can be all destroyed as legitimate targets since Hamas is a "terrorist organization" and any member is a legitimate target?

Hamas-run schools are places where Hamas members teach children to hate and kill Jews. I never said that the schools should be destroyed, as that would include innocent children.
Hamas' members, however, be them militants, terrorism-planners or the people who train the future generation of terrorists, are all terrorists, and thus are all viable targets from the moral perspective.

 

[Demon of Light]

That's a flat out lie, the police forces have to be used for military purposes for them to be considered as military targets thus legit targets.

If the police are taking part in hostilities they are definitely legitimate targets. If the police are a formal part of the military apparatus they are also legitimate targets. Police in Gaza were not a formal part of the military apparatus and they could not have been taking part in hostilities when Israel initiated hostilities in 2008 and bombed the police stations.

Not when their objectives are similar to that of the military they aren't.

What does that mean?

Hamas-run schools are places where Hamas members teach children to hate and kill Jews. I never said that the schools should be destroyed, as that would include innocent children.

There are also usually innocents and other non-combatants in police stations. That sure didn't stop Israel. Of course, there are also usually innocents and non-combatants in flour mills and dairy plants.

 

[Apocalypse]

If the police are taking part in hostilities they are definitely legitimate targets.

Exactly, they do not have to officially belong to the militia wing of Hamas, Iz-addin al-Qassam brigades, for them to be considered military targets.

Police in Gaza were not a formal part of the military apparatus and they could not have been taking part in hostilities when Israel initiated hostilities in 2008 and bombed the police stations.

They sure did take part in the Gaza war as soldiers, yet what you're saying here is that the scope of time where their military role can be pointed out is within the Gaza war, and I see no reason to think that. International law claims that it is necessary for the police to be used for military roles, it doesn't claim that they need to be used as a military role exactly when they're being attacked. The Hamas police forces have been used as militants all throughout the Hamas rule over the Gaza Strip, from the point the police was established to this present time when they are used in their gang wars with the other terrorist organizations in the Strip or with Israeli forces on the border.

What does that mean?

That they are being assigned with military roles by the Hamas regime.
Fight Israel, fight lesser terrorist organizations, etc etc.

There are also usually innocents and other non-combatants in police stations. That sure didn't stop Israel. Of course, there are also usually innocents and non-combatants in flour mills and dairy plants.

An innocent person can be in a military base too, that does not make it a non-legitimate target.
If a target is legitimate according to international law, civilians should be informed by their local authorities and not go around such targets.
Of course, Hamas is not the kind of organization that would prevent its own civilians' deaths by Israeli forces' fire when it can.

 

[Demon of Light]

Exactly, they do not have to officially belong to the militia wing of Hamas, Iz-addin al-Qassam brigades, for them to be considered military targets.

If you look at what I said my reference to being of the military is about the institution itself being a legitimate target. Even if a group of police officers takes part in the war does not make the institution a legitimate target.

They sure did take part in the Gaza war as soldiers, yet what you're saying here is that the scope of time where their military role can be pointed out is within the Gaza war, and I see no reason to think that. International law claims that it is necessary for the police to be used for military roles, it doesn't claim that they need to be used as a military role exactly when they're being attacked. The Hamas police forces have been used as militants all throughout the Hamas rule over the Gaza Strip, from the point the police was established to this present time when they are used in their gang wars with the other terrorist organizations in the Strip or with Israeli forces on the border.

Then you might as well justify attacking schools in general as the same factors apply. Also, using police for internal security does not make them a military force and certainly doesn't mean they are serving a military function. By that logic all polices forces are legitimate targets.

That they are being assigned with military roles by the Hamas regime.
Fight Israel, fight lesser terrorist organizations, etc etc.

Members of the polices forces being used for such roles does not make the entire police a legitimate military target. If the institution itself is not being used for military purposes and the individuals being targeted are not taking part in hostilities then there is no legitimate basis for targeting them in war.

An innocent person can be in a military base too, that does not make it a non-legitimate target.

When the police are not part of the military police stations are just like any other civilian structure.

If a target is legitimate according to international law, civilians should be informed by their local authorities and not go around such targets.
Of course, Hamas is not the kind of organization that would prevent its own civilians' deaths by Israeli forces' fire when it can.

If Hamas told civilians to stay away from police stations that would be a serious problem.

 

[commy]

Here we go:


Art. 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following
provisions:

(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

International Humanitarian Law - Fourth 1949 Geneva Convention

From which I understand that even if one insists that the Gaza police is part of Hamas, in the case of a graduation ceremony, the police was NOT taking active part in the hostilities. Being cadets also means that they had never taken part in hostilities in the past either since the ceremony was to mark the beginning of their career as police officers.

yeah, Israel violated international law in operation cast lead.


what else is new?

 

[Mika-El]

yeah, Israel violated international law in operation cast lead.


what else is new?

I can tell you what is not new. Discussions which refer to Israel violating international law during Operation Cast Lead but never mentioning the context for what the IDF accused of violating these international laws was.

What I can also tell you is not new, is the exercise of criticizing the IDF's actions but ignoring who it was responding to and why.

What I can tell you is not new, is how the IDF is going to be criticized for anything it does by the same critics who will omit any reference to what Hamas was doing which precipitated what the IDF were doing.

Now you tell me, why is it oh so old, that the same people who criticize the IDF for violating international law do not criticize Hamas for the same thing?

Explain to me while you are at it, because it would be new, how the IDF is to respond to Hamas which openly and blatantly violates international law, in a manner that is supposed to promote a double standard where Hamas can act as international outlaws, but the IDF remains pristine and virgin like in response...

Can we get real for a second. It is a fact openly admitted by Hamas, that its forces including its police officers as a deliberate tactic, got rid of their uniforms and chose to wear civilian clothes so they could mix with the civilian population of Gaza and make it hard for the IDF to find them.

Hamas chose to discard its uniforms and fight as per the Geneva convention but intend to blend in as civilians and take that tactic one step further and deliberately place themselvesin the homes of civilians as a deliberate tactic.

In so doing it deliberately and with pre-meditation placed its civilians in direct harms way. This action led to Israeli forces attacking civilians placed in harms way in hot pursuit of Hamas and making it impossible to know who to shoot back at in the heat of the moment.

Hamas does this deliberately. It does so to kill civilians as a deliberate, pre-meditated public relations campaign to broadcast dead and mutilated Palestinians on t.v. for world consumption and it works. Just read this forum. The usual Hamas apologists come on and quickly point out what international criminals the IDF are but remain silent as to the actions leading up to the responses by the IDF.

I know Gaza citizens. I know what they tell me. I know what former Gaza citizens have told me about Hamas. I do not doubt their word that Hamas uses its civilians as shields and cannon fodder.

The world has come to find out how Hamas uses the homes of its citizens, their schools, community centres, mosques, hospitals, ambulances as weapons and theatres of war.

Yes the IDF used excessive force at times. In the heat of battle some of its soldiers used excessive force and others died or were seriously injured taking extra-precautionary measures in the heat of battle to try protect civilians.

Yes the IDF used white phosphorous weapons that are horrendous and one would hope no one uses including Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, Russia, China, the U.S., and many other countries that have and continue to use them.

No the IDF is not pure and innocent and it makes mistakes. But no Hamas is not to be ignored and should be criticized in the same sentence and it should be pointed out that the IDF did not act ibn a vacum. It reacted to continuous missile attacks against its civilians.

If someone really cares about the citizens of Gaza it will free them from the terrorist Hamas who hold them hostage. Disarm Hamas and the IDF becomes a moot point.



Apart from these, Hamas officials also used to hoard the aid coming which was intended for the civilians of Gaza strip and other areas of Palestine and would instead use the aid to support Hamas operatives. All this at a time of extreme shortage for the people of Gaza Strip.

Even with ample proof, international organizations such as the UN, Amnesty International etc refuse to acknowledge the fact that these human rights violations did take place. There is one question that needs to be asked to these organizations : Who are you afraid of?



Read more: War Crimes Committed by Hamas During Operation Cast Lead | Socyberty

 

[Mika-El]

Now someone explain to me this.

During Operation Cast Lead when Hamas now admits to 600 to 700 of its members being killed, has it admitted what it did to Fatah?

Has it admitted to murdering and torturing members of Fatah in Gaza during the Gaza war? Has it yet admitted to closing down Shifa hospital for two days to hide the pictures of dead and mutilated Fatah members from getting out?

Hamas has I would suggest many selective memory issues as to its actions.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoH19b1Tr…

 

[Mika-El]

Pleases someone explain to me after looking at this video how the IDF should have responded when the Hamas fighter used a house as a site to shoot a rocket then uses children as a shield to escape?

Please tell me how one fights a war against a terrorist organization that uses children as weapons and remains with clean hands?

I want to hear why the IDF should do nothing and just have such terrorists continue to shoot missiles at Israel but do nothing in response.

I want to hear someone explain how the IDF uses Israeli children as shields to hide behind once you are at it.

YouTube - Cast Lead Video: Hamas Terrorist uses Children as Human Shield


To me the crux of the issue are the tactics Hamas employs.

Nothing prevents Hamas from disarming and instead of hiding behind children sitting and talking in a rational manner.

Excuse me if I do not join in on the IDF is a criminal judgements.

I look at the entire context of what has happened. I will criticize the IDF but I sure as hell will not ignore what Hamas is doing either or how it manipulates the media.

 

[CJ 2.0]

Thanks for the effort, if that post had answered my question I wouldn't have asked again.

I'm still not convinced at all that targetting police cadets during a graduation ceremony is legal.

well, would it have made a difference if this was not a police ceremony and instead was a "military" one?

Your piece below is not really responsive - it deals with those who are injured or otherwise walked away from hostilities, not those who have taken a break from it.

If you launch an offensive along a front line and then pull back as you are relived, that doesn't make it illegal to target you while you are pulling back.

Of course, we are also talking about a "military" that targets civilians at every opportunity, which while not maiibng this more legal than it already is, helps colour exactly what this "illegality" nonsense 8implies - that no free nation is allowed to target terrorist organizations under any circumstances except where individuals are actively being deployed to hit civilian targets, and even then it would only be permissable to go after those actually carrying the bombs.

Which of course makes no sense.