Hamas admits 600-700 of its men were killed in Cast Lead

[Gardener]

It was mainly a political exercise aimed at undermining Israel's right of self-defense.

And considering the agenda of those who hired him, there is absolutely no possibility that any future "investigation" will be any different.

 

[Mira]

International law openly permits the targeting of police facilities and personnel in the time of war, when such police force is not serving the sole purpose of civil order and rather is used actively in the form of combat and military.
Hence your claims here about the killing of the 250 terrorists being "against international law" is against international logic.

International law permits the targetting of policemen only when they are actively engaged in military action. Killing police cadets during an open-air graduation ceremony is NOT targetting them during military action.
If you claim that they could have been future fighters then so are most of the Palestinian children especially boys. Then why not kill all the boys, that way the IDF can be sure that Hamas will become an endangered species.

 

[Gardener]

that way the IDF can be sure that Hamas will become an endangered species.

I sure hope this genocidal terrorist organization become extinct, myself.

 

[justabubba]

I sure hope this genocidal terrorist organization become extinct, myself.

and the way to make that happen is for israel to quit behaving in such a manner which precipitates acts of terrorism
israel, by its actions, has brought this upon itself
the Goldstone Report is another piece of the evidence showing this to be true

 

[Gardener]

and the way to make that happen is for israel to quit behaving in such a manner which precipitates acts of terrorism

Oh, by being Jews?

I don't think that is a reasonable expectation.

 

[justabubba]

Oh, by being Jews?

I don't think that is a reasonable expectation.

no. by ending its oppression of the Palestinian people ... no matter the ethnic/religious identity of those doing the oppressing
i am sad to admit America is complicit in this by our nation's support and underwriting of israel's unjust policies

 

[Whovian]

Under international law, a civilian is any person who does not fit the criteria set forth in Article 4 (A) (1), (2), (3) and (6) of the Third Geneva Convention. The Hamas "policemen" fail the test set forth in Article 4 (A) (1), as they are members of Hamas' militia, which is part of the armed wing of Hamas amd Article 4 (a) (2) as they are members of an "organized resistance movement." Under no reasonable interpretation of international law were the policemen civilians. They were legitimate military objectives. Mr. Goldstone simply cannot supplant what are actually well-established principles of international law with his highly politicized account that quite frankly has no basis whatsoever in international law, customary or otherwise. Given Hamas' figures of 600-700 of its members being killed, the Goldstone report's absurd notion that the overwhelming majority of persons (>80%) killed were civilians is wrong. More than half of those killed were legitimate military objectives. As noted previously, I highly doubt that the report will be revised. It was mainly a political exercise aimed at undermining Israel's right of self-defense.

How dare you throw facts around the conversation as if they mattered!

 

[Gardener]

no. by ending its oppression of the Palestinian people ... no matter the ethnic/religious identity of those doing the oppressing
i am sad to admit America is complicit in this by our nation's support and underwriting of israel's unjust policies

The terrorism against Jews began well before there was a state of Israel, so the excuses you offer by way of supporting Hamas simply do not hold water.

The Hamas charter vowing to kill Jews until they hide behind rocks and trees has nothing to do with "oppression".

 

[justabubba]

The terrorism against Jews began well before there was a state of Israel, so the excuses you offer by way of supporting Hamas simply do not hold water.

and the terrorism by the jewish freedom fighters - such as the use of suicide bombs - is equally reprehensible

The Hamas charter vowing to kill Jews until they hide behind rocks and trees has nothing to do with "oppression".

it has everything to do with the terrorism. be assured, if there was a foreign entity - say the IDF - which occupied my homeland, i would stop at nothing to eradicate them from their occupation
i cannot imagine the Palestinians think differently

 

[Gardener]

it has everything to do with the terrorism.

Of course it has everything to do with their terrorism. They are genocidal racists.

 

[Apocalypse]

International law permits the targetting of policemen only when they are actively engaged in military action. Killing police cadets during an open-air graduation ceremony is NOT targetting them during military action.

But you're wrong. Intenrational law openly permits the targetting of police facilities and personnel when the police as a body is being used for military purposes.
What you're claiming here is that international law permits the targeting of police personnel only when the specific police personnel are in the middle of a military role and that is false.

Such claim is also silly because in a situation when a person is attacking you it is quite obvious that he can be targeted, be him a civilian a police officer or a soldier.
There's hence really no need for international law to state so, and contrary to your claims, it doesn't state so.

 

[Apocalypse]

and the terrorism by the jewish freedom fighters - such as the use of suicide bombs - is equally reprehensible

So is the history revisionism and demonization that seeks to promote a surreal idea that a Jewish person has ever suicide bombed in the history of mankind.
Your claim that Jews have used suicide bombs is false and has no historical basis.
The Palestinian Arab terrorism however has begun well over a decade before the Irgun has even existed, hence the claims that Jews have "brought the Palestinian Arab terrorism on themselves" because of the occupation (1967) or Israel's existence (1948) are absolutely false. The willingness to acheive self-determination by the Palestinian Jews was enough for the Palestinian Arab terrorism to initiate.

it has everything to do with the terrorism. be assured, if there was a foreign entity - say the IDF - which occupied my homeland, i would stop at nothing to eradicate them from their occupation
i cannot imagine the Palestinians think differently

And if you'd murder an innocent Israeli person in an act of terrorism you'd deserve to die.
Likewise, if you were Iraqi and your land was occupied by the US army and then you'd murder American civilians, you'd deserve to die.
That's really a no brainer, terrorism has no excuse, it's an act of inhumanity.

 

[Mira]

But you're wrong. Intenrational law openly permits the targetting of police facilities and personnel when the police as a body is being used for military purposes.
What you're claiming here is that international law permits the targeting of police personnel only when the specific police personnel are in the middle of a military role and that is false.

Such claim is also silly because in a situation when a person is attacking you it is quite obvious that he can be targeted, be him a civilian a police officer or a soldier.
There's hence really no need for international law to state so, and contrary to your claims, it doesn't state so.

An open-air graduation ceremony of police cadets....I'm not sure about that being a legitimate target.

I might be totally wrong and willing to be corrected. Please show me the international law that permits this kind of action.

 

[Guy Incognito]

So is the history revisionism and demonization that seeks to promote a surreal idea that a Jewish person has ever suicide bombed in the history of mankind.

I don't generally like to tread in the ME forums, but I had to correct you here. The Zealots from the time of Christ were essentially suicide attackers following the same tradition of modern terrorists. They used to go into big crowds during festivals and knife people at random, causing a panic. So you're essentially wrong, even if there may not have been any Jewish suicide bombers in history, there have been Jewish suicide attackers. And just like Muslim suicide attackers, the Jewish ones aren't doing justice to their claimed religion, nor are they representative of it.

Keep in mind, I say this as a person who supports Israeli democracy. But you get yourself into trouble when you make blanket statements about the "history of mankind." A lot of stuff has happened in the history of mankind.

 

[Apocalypse]

I don't generally like to tread in the ME forums, but I had to correct you here. The Zealots from the time of Christ were essentially suicide attackers following the same tradition of modern terrorists. They used to go into big crowds during festivals and knife people at random, causing a panic. So you're essentially wrong, even if there may not have been any Jewish suicide bombers in history, there have been Jewish suicide attackers.

Keep in mind, I say this as a person who supports Israeli democracy. But you get yourself into trouble when you make blanket statements about the "history of mankind." A lot of stuff has happened in the history of mankind.

I am sorry Guy but my statement was the following:

So is the history revisionism and demonization that seeks to promote a surreal idea that a Jewish person has ever suicide bombed in the history of mankind.

Hence as long as no Jewish person has ever committed a suicide bombing in the history of mankind, my statement is actually correct and does not need any correction.

I am well aware that there were Jewish people who would attack people and then commit suicide or go on suicidal missions, for example, an Israeli Jewish citizen has some weeks ago murdered his wife and committed suicide, but that is of course irrelevant to the act of suicide bombing.

 

[Mira]

were you talking about bomb attacks on markets by the Irgun in the mid 30s bubba ?

 

[Guy Incognito]

I am sorry Guy but my statement was the following:



Hence as long as no Jewish person has ever committed a suicide bombing in the history of mankind, my statement is actually correct and does not need any correction.

Well, it's a distortion, for one thing, since bombs have not been around since the beginning of the history of mankind. And even then all somebody will have to do is find one instance of a Jewish suicide bomber to prove you wrong. And even then, what's the point? Why draw an arbitrary distinction between a terrorist who kills by bombs and a terrorist who kills with knives?

I am well aware that there were Jewish people who would attack people and then commit suicide or go on suicidal missions, for example, an Israeli Jewish citizen has some weeks ago murdered his wife and committed suicide, but that is of course irrelevant to the act of suicide bombing.

I don't really see how the choice of weapon makes any difference. You're being disingenuous in your comparison with the murder of the wife, because we're talking about terrorism not merely crime. The fact is there is no difference, morally speaking, between a terrorist stabbing an innocent person and a terrorist blowing one up.

 

[Apocalypse]

Well, it's a distortion, for one thing, since bombs have not been around since the beginning of the history of mankind.

I wished to emphasize the incorrectness of Justabubba's remark.

And even then all somebody will have to do is find one instance of a Jewish suicide bomber to prove you wrong.

Which is what I'm expecting bubba to do, to find at least one occasion where a Jewish person has ever committed the act of suicide bombing. Not merely planned to, not merely thought about it, suicide bombed. Since he has stated that such occasion did take place, and he has even stated that there was more than one individual, the burden of proof is upon him. Do you not agree?

And even then, what's the point? Why draw an arbitrary distinction between a terrorist who kills by bombs and a terrorist who kills with knives?

The point is that Justabubba has made a false statement, and just as you have felt the need to step in and correct me when you believed I have made a false statement (and I haven't), so have I felt the need to step in and correct bubba's misleading and false remark.

 

[Tashah]

Moderator's Warning:

Get back on track. Hamas admits....

 

[Mira]

An open-air graduation ceremony of police cadets....I'm not sure about that being a legitimate target.

I might be totally wrong and willing to be corrected. Please show me the international law that permits this kind of action.

So back to the topic. Please Apocalypse do reply to the above post .

 

[Demon of Light]

That's plainly false, Hamas "police force" are pretty much militants, they actively take part in combat, whether with Israel or in Hamas' wars with the other terrorist organizations in the Strip.

"Pretty much" means you recognize the police force is not part of the military forces, but merely has some people who are part of both forces. As such the Gaza police force fully meets the criteria don mentioned and thus attacks on them are a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

In fact, consider what the Interior Minister says in the article:

"They say that it was the people who were harmed in the last war," said Hamad. "Are we not part of the people nation? On the first day of the war, Israel attacked the police command and killed 250 martyrs, from Hamas and other factions."

"This was in addition to the 200-300 members of the Al-Qassam Brigade [Hamas' military wing] and 150 security personnel," Hamad added. "The rest of the fatalities were from among the civilian population."

Right there he is making a clear distinction between members of the military wing and the police. This suggests they are not one and the same as you and others claim.

I'm not speaking about being a militant but rather about signing up for a terrorist organization.
From the moral point of view there is of course no issue at all with the targeting of terrorists.

Whatever you call Hamas it is not just an organization dedicated to military purposes and so simply being a member of Hamas is not enough to justify killing someone.

They are by far the most credible of all organizations involved in the covering of the war's death tolls, and you are still refusing to admit to the reality that those new figures by Hamas are the closest to the IDF's more than they are to any other organization, which is why your claims here are nothing but a joke and a very bad joke indeed.

Actually they are very close to the figures put out by B'Tselem and that includes the number of police killed. That it and other organizations did not automatically include the police as militants makes their figures more reliable. Also, one has to consider that Israel's figures for civilian deaths are FAR lower than that of ANY other organization.

 

[William Rea]

Can I slot a post in here that advises any lurkers to go back to post 1 and read the whole thread but to skip the irrelevance of pages 3 and 4. In that way they will see the real argument and not the obfuscation.

 

[ecofarm]

Right there he is making a clear distinction between members of the military wing and the police. This suggests they are not one and the same as you and others claim.

Your quote:

Hamad added. "The rest of the fatalities were from among the civilian population."

Right there he is making a clear distinction [having already mentioned the police] between members of the police and the civilian population. This suggests they are not one and the same as you and no others claim.

 

[Apocalypse]

So back to the topic. Please Apocalypse do reply to the above post .

The Geneva Conventions.

"Pretty much" means you recognize the police force is not part of the military forces, but merely has some people who are part of both forces. As such the Gaza police force fully meets the criteria don mentioned and thus attacks on them are a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

Pretty much actually means that I recognize they are acting also as militants and not solely as a civil order branch, and due to that I also recognize that international law openly permits their targeting.
They do not need to be officially associated with the military wing to be targeted, they merely need to be used as militants.

Whatever you call Hamas it is not just an organization dedicated to military purposes and so simply being a member of Hamas is not enough to justify killing someone.

Not all of the terrorists are militants. The militants are the ones who execute the murdering of the innocent civilians, sure, but there are also those who plan how those innocent human beings will be murdered by the terrorist group's militants, when they will be murdered and where they will be murdered. There are also those who act to plan the propaganda that will be spread after the murder of the innocents and there are those who need to stand in front of the crowd and declare the great success in the murder of those innocents and make them feel proud.

Basically every single member of a terrorist organization, whatever be his role, is acting to support and promote the murders of the innocent human beings by the terrorist organization's militants, and thus every single person who signs up for an active terrorist organization and becomes a terrorist is a valid target for removal.

Actually they are very close to the figures put out by B'Tselem and that includes the number of police killed. That it and other organizations did not automatically include the police as militants makes their figures more reliable. Also, one has to consider that Israel's figures for civilian deaths are FAR lower than that of ANY other organization.

The figures are the closest to the IDF's, and IMO when Hamas admits to figures that resemble the IDF's more than anyone's else, you know that someone was not doing his job right, to say the least.

 

[Mira]

The Geneva Conventions.

I've looked all over the net using Geneva Conventions as a keyword but I still cannot find a law that permits to target police.

I'm genuinely interested in finding that law for personal education.

Thank you in advance for your help.