- Joined
- Oct 17, 2007
- Messages
- 11,862
- Reaction score
- 10,300
- Location
- New York
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Centrist
Today, Haaretz reported:
Hamas admitted last week that between 600 and 700 of its militants were killed during Operation Cast Lead – a figure consistent with that reported by the Israel Defense Forces...
Hamas’ military wing had previously claimed that only 49 of its militants were killed during the three-week operation that the IDF launched in December 2008. Israel had put the figure at 709.
This latest information shatters the Goldstone Report's efforts to debunk the casualty figures reported by Israel. That flawed report had claimed:
The Israeli armed forces claim that 1,166 Palestinians were killed during the military operations “according to the data gathered by the Research Department of the Israel Defense Intelligence”. They allege that “709 of them are identified as Hamas terror operatives”, 295 are “uninvolved Palestinians”, while the remaining 162 are “men that have not yet been attributed to any organization”.222 Of the 295 “uninvolved Palestinians”, 89 were children under the age of 16 and 49 women. According to these figures, at least 60 per cent, and possibly as many as three out of four, of those killed were combatants. The Mission notes, however, that the Israeli Government has not published a list of victims or other data supporting its assertions, nor has it, to the Mission’s knowledge, explained the divergence between its statistics and those published by three Palestinian sources...
Needless to say, the report did not question the veracity of the Palestinian sources, even as such sources had a motive to overstate civilian casualties/understate combatant casualties. As if that were not enough, the report then sought to further undermine Israel's credibility stating:
The Mission notes that the statistics from non-governmental sources are generally
consistent. Statistics alleging that fewer than one out of five persons killed in an armed conflict was a combatant…
It should be noted that a basic responsibility inherent in any competent legal endeavor is to focus on finding facts. The Goldstone investigation failed to satisfy that basic obligation. As a result, its conclusions were little more than politicized soundbites that lacked foundation in international law e.g., the most prominent example being the report's novel interpretation that armed Hamas police officials were civilians.
Now that Hamas has finally acknowledged more accurate statistics, it remains to be seen whether the flimsy Goldstone report will be revised to reflect the facts. My guess is that it won't.
The failure to revise the report in light of facts that confirm one of the report's material defects will provide further evidence that the report's author had little desire for fact finding. Instead, it will confirm his having pursued a little more than a political crusade aimed at delegitimizing Israel for its having acted in self defense.
I thought the point was tha Hamas is a bunch of murderous, lying bastards that should never be trusted for accurate numbers of any sort.
49 vs. 300? Who lost count so badly? This is ridiculous.
Today, Haaretz reported:
Hamas admitted last week that between 600 and 700 of its militants were killed during Operation Cast Lead – a figure consistent with that reported by the Israel Defense Forces...
Hamas’ military wing had previously claimed that only 49 of its militants were killed during the three-week operation that the IDF launched in December 2008. Israel had put the figure at 709.
This latest information shatters the Goldstone Report's efforts to debunk the casualty figures reported by Israel. That flawed report had claimed:
The Israeli armed forces claim that 1,166 Palestinians were killed during the military operations “according to the data gathered by the Research Department of the Israel Defense Intelligence”. They allege that “709 of them are identified as Hamas terror operatives”, 295 are “uninvolved Palestinians”, while the remaining 162 are “men that have not yet been attributed to any organization”.222 Of the 295 “uninvolved Palestinians”, 89 were children under the age of 16 and 49 women. According to these figures, at least 60 per cent, and possibly as many as three out of four, of those killed were combatants. The Mission notes, however, that the Israeli Government has not published a list of victims or other data supporting its assertions, nor has it, to the Mission’s knowledge, explained the divergence between its statistics and those published by three Palestinian sources...
Needless to say, the report did not question the veracity of the Palestinian sources, even as such sources had a motive to overstate civilian casualties/understate combatant casualties. As if that were not enough, the report then sought to further undermine Israel's credibility stating:
The Mission notes that the statistics from non-governmental sources are generally
consistent. Statistics alleging that fewer than one out of five persons killed in an armed conflict was a combatant…
It should be noted that a basic responsibility inherent in any competent legal endeavor is to focus on finding facts. The Goldstone investigation failed to satisfy that basic obligation. As a result, its conclusions were little more than politicized soundbites that lacked foundation in international law e.g., the most prominent example being the report's novel interpretation that armed Hamas police officials were civilians.
Now that Hamas has finally acknowledged more accurate statistics, it remains to be seen whether the flimsy Goldstone report will be revised to reflect the facts. My guess is that it won't.
The failure to revise the report in light of facts that confirm one of the report's material defects will provide further evidence that the report's author had little desire for fact finding. Instead, it will confirm his having pursued a little more than a political crusade aimed at delegitimizing Israel for its having acted in self defense.
Muhammad Abu Askar, a longtime member of Hamas' Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, appeared before the Goldstone Panel arguing that his house had been "unjustly" blown up by Israel. No one bothered to ask him whether Hamas munitions were being stored in his house.
The IDF reported that Abu Askar's house served as a storage facility for large stockpiles of weapons and ammunition, including Iranian-supplied Grad rockets that had been used against Israeli cities like Ashkelon, Ashdod, and Beersheba. The Izz al-Din al-Qassam website disclosed that Khaled Abu Askar, Muhammad's son, provided Hamas operatives with rockets and military equipment.
The Abu Askar case is one of many incidents where the Goldstone team refused to consider that Hamas was exploiting civilian areas to gain military advantage.
Goldstone quotes many sources for estimates but for example he quoted data that...
237 combatants were killed Item 356 Page 90
Although I don't think that this puts a final nail in the Goldstone committee's credibility's coffin, if only because they've had no credibility to begin with, they should just change their name from the UNHRC to "The less-credibility-than-Hamas UN council for anti-Israeli affairs".
600 to 700 Hamas militants is approximately triple the Goldstone report's reference to "237 combatants."
That more than 50% of the casualties were not civilians (600-700 Hamas militants/1169 fatalaties) debunks the bogus speculation that " fewer than one out of five persons killed in an armed conflict was a combatant."
Those are the facts. Now that the Hamas terrorist group has conceded its casualties, the facts can no longer be obscured by the politically-motivated Goldstone report.
600 to 700 Hamas militants is approximately triple the Goldstone report's reference to "237 combatants."
That more than 50% of the casualties were not civilians (600-700 Hamas militants/1169 fatalaties) debunks the bogus speculation that " fewer than one out of five persons killed in an armed conflict was a combatant."
Those are the facts. Now that the Hamas terrorist group has conceded its casualties, the facts can no longer be obscured by the politically-motivated Goldstone report.
600 to 700 Hamas militants is approximately triple the Goldstone report's reference to "237 combatants."
That more than 50% of the casualties were not civilians (600-700 Hamas militants/1169 fatalaties) debunks the bogus speculation that " fewer than one out of five persons killed in an armed conflict was a combatant."
Those are the facts. Now that the Hamas terrorist group has conceded its casualties, the facts can no longer be obscured by the politically-motivated Goldstone report.
The fact they consider the police officers killed during the war "martyrs" does not mean they were combatants.
Don, With respect, if you cannot discern between what Haaretz "interpreted" that Fathi Hamad said as "600-700 Hamas militants" for a headline and what they later report he ACTUALLY said and you only wish to quote Israeli sources for figures then what hope is there?
Under international law, the armed police officers were legitimate military objectives. They were not civilians. What the IDF says has no bearing on that issue. What is solely relevant is that the Hamas police officers did not meet the criteria set forth for civilian status.
Quite a bit more hope, I'd say, than all those who place such unquestioning trust in a terrorist organization for their point of view.
Civilian police forces are considered non-combatants under international law. The blanket attacks on police stations were clearly illegitimate, never mind the attack on a police graduation ceremony.
I am not putting any trust in Hamas. However, their figures here line up with those of several non-governmental organizations in Israel and Gaza and do not contradict the Goldstone Report.
Civilian police forces are considered non-combatants under international law. The blanket attacks on police stations were clearly illegitimate, never mind the attack on a police graduation ceremony.
The problem is that Hamas' "police," and the use of quotes is deliberate, perform dual roles. They do not perform purely civilian functions. The same applies to Hamas' "police stations." Those facilities also do not perform purely civilian functions. Hence, in both cases they were legitimate military objectives.
Which then counters your analysis of the Goldstone report, its report of militants killed and police/security forces killed come quite close to the 600 number, making the report fairly accurate does it not
International law declares the attacks on police to be illegitimate only when they're not serving a part in the military force of the government, which is not the case with the terrorist organization of Hamas.
Since the police forces of Hamas are instructed to take part in Hamas' war with Israel they become legitimate targets under international law, and are fully recognized as enemy combatants.
Of course, beyond the legal field, a person who signs up to an active terrorist organization may be targeted at will without any moral issues covering the action, as such person would constitute as a member of a terrorist organization, a terrorist.
The point of the thread which you seem to have... 'missed', is that the current figures the terrorists admit to now after giving up on lying about it are closer to the IDF figures than they are to anyone else.
Unsurprising to some, of course, who know that the IDF was and is the most credible organization amongst those who have covered the war death tolls.
A combatant is someone who actively takes part in hostilities. A combatant is not someone who may or may not potentially take part in hostilities. The fact that you do not care to know the difference only highlights your own bias in regards to the current situation. Perhaps you need to reevaluate your preconceived notions that put a hamper in critical thinking.My objection is the Goldstone report's flawed conclusion that fewer than one-in-five persons killed was a combatant. I have no objections to total fatalities being reported in the 1,200 +/- 100 vicinity. Hamas' figures suggest that more than half of those killed were, in fact, from the terrorist organization. Therefore, the idea that less than 20% of those killed were civilians is wrong. Needless to say, that language very likely will not be corrected in the report. The failure to make the necessary correction will further demonstrate that Mr. Goldstone conducted an exercise aimed at achieving political ends, not finding the facts.
First of all, the attacks they mention in particular were the opening blows in the war including an attack on a graduation ceremony. There is no conceivable way to argue that these people were taking part in hostilities when hostilities had just been initiated and included people who had just become police. In addition the police in Gaza were not and are not part of the military forces. Some police were also members of a militant group, but they were not one and the same. Arguing that blanket attacks on police stations were justified on that basis would be akin to saying that because some teachers moonlight as soldiers of fortune it justifies blanket attacks on schools.
If Hamas were only a militant organization you would have a point, but since it is also a political party and charitable organization that reasoning is inherently flawed.
Actually, they are close to the figures from other groups. Even calling the IDF "credible" makes everything you are saying a joke. They are as credible as a fox investigating who broke into the hen house.
"Pretty much" is not good enough. 250 people were killed at Gaza City's main police station because they were about to become police officers. Such preemptive measures hardly comply with international law. Using the same logic Israel is using on targeting police officers, then all Israelis are legitimate targets because they will eventually serve in the IDF. Of course, that is ridiculous, but Israel's contentions are usually ridiculous.That's plainly false, Hamas "police force" are pretty much militants, they actively take part in combat, whether with Israel or in Hamas' wars with the other terrorist organizations in the Strip.
How exactly are they "credible"? They are taking part in the hostilities, which only weakens their credibility. Independent sources are far more accurate and credible. Suggesting otherwise is asinine.They are by far the most credible of all organizations involved in the covering of the war's death tolls, and you are still refusing to admit to the reality that those new figures by Hamas are the closest to the IDF's more than they are to any other organization, which is why your claims here are nothing but a joke and a very bad joke indeed.
"Pretty much" is not good enough. 250 people were killed at Gaza City's main police station because they were about to become police officers. Such preemptive measures hardly comply with international law.
Using the same logic Israel is using on targeting police officers, then all Israelis are legitimate targets because they will eventually serve in the IDF. Of course, that is ridiculous, but Israel's contentions are usually ridiculous.
How exactly are they "credible"? They are taking part in the hostilities, which only weakens their credibility. Independent sources are far more accurate and credible. Suggesting otherwise is asinine.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?