Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

[Infinite Chaos]

Several people have been killed and others injured after a gunman opened fire in several areas of west Cumbria.

Police are searching for the suspect, named as Derrick Bird, after shots were fired in Whitehaven, Seascale and Egremont.

He is believed to be heading towards the central Lakes area in a grey or silver Picasso, registration ND55 ZFC.
BBC Story

This is happening now to the North and West of where I am and the gunman is heading South (towards us) apparently. I have friends up near West Cumbria and apparently everyone in the nearby towns is really scared - trains in and out have been stopped and road blocks in operation.

Friends reporting 10 or more seriously wounded brought in to the local hospital.

The killer started on a farm, headed into the nearby town and shot two people at different locations. One close encounter was another driver who came up to a red light - saw the Picasso with blown out windows and a driver nursing a shotgun in his lap, the driver telling the story sped off through red lights to get away.

Large manhunt underway - the killer may now have swapped cars.

 

[jamesrage]

Unarmed people who were stripped of their rights to protect themselves being prey for a armed criminal? Say it ain't so.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Warning has gone out over the radio for Central Lakes (and Eastern South Lakes) to stay indoors - there are very strong rumours the guy is armed with a shotgun and heading our way now. My students aren't in today but we're asked to keep all students at the university now and not let anyone out until news of capture is announced.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Derrick Bird's body has just been found in woodland in the village of Boot, Eskdale - not too far away from us.

11 reported shootings - however a colleague still tells me reports of injured outnumber what is being reported. I guess the full picture will emerge later today.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

They should ban guns, oh wait. :ssst:



Seriously though, these sad lessons seldom are learned.

 

[PeteEU]

They should ban guns, oh wait. :ssst:

Seriously though, these sad lessons seldom are learned.

What lessons? That guns kill people?

The UK has very few cases of this kind, and in the US where children can basically get guns, there are such shootings almost on a weekly basis.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

What lessons? That guns kill people?

The UK has very few cases of this kind, and in the US where children can basically get guns, there are such shootings almost on a weekly basis.

What am I supposed to do with this sort of idiotic commentary? :doh:

 

[Infinite Chaos]

They should ban guns, oh wait. :ssst:



Seriously though, these sad lessons seldom are learned.

I was going mad here at work knowing he was headed towards the region my partner and our child live, she's been at home today worrying.

I can tell you if I was at home and this guy heading our way as he was earlier, I'd be much happier knowing I could protect myself with a firearm. Hopefully the news he's shot himself is true as that ends the current events.

 

[Andalublue]

Unarmed people who were stripped of their rights to protect themselves being prey for a armed criminal? Say it ain't so.

Yeah, if only those Columbine kids had been packing....

But I'm sure the people of West Cumbria thank you for your show of sympathy.

This is a terrible tragedy and to use it to make cheap political points is a bit sick. Fortunately no such tasteless remarks have been expressed by anyone on any of the radio or TV reports I've been following, so the grief of the families of the victims will not be exacerbated by anti gun control nuts.

 

[Ockham]

Yeah, if only those Columbine kids had been packing....

You mean the teachers? Yeah I agree.

This is a terrible tragedy and to use it to make cheap political points is a bit sick.

Hardly. If I've learned one thing about politics from our current White House is that letting a good tragedy and not using that tragedy for politics is such a waste. When the ability both legally and physically, to defend one's self is removed - it' easy for someone like Bird to take advantage of it. :shrug:

This is a teachable moment.

 

[Andalublue]

The death toll is now 12 (13 including the shooter) with 30 different crime scenes. The witness reports make very upsetting listening. I have nothing to comment on Mr Ockham's ill-considered and inappropriate post. Perhaps you'd allow the dead to be buried before making political capital.

 

[jamesrage]

Yeah, if only those Columbine kids had been packing....

If at least the principal, teachers and security guards were armed they could have prevented most of those deaths. Those Columbine losers probably would have not even considered the idea of shooting up a school if they knew that the school personal were armed.

But I'm sure the people of West Cumbria thank you for your show of sympathy.

Most of those deaths would have never happened if those people were allowed to arm themselves.

This is a terrible tragedy and to use

This terrible tragedy is an example why individuals should be armed.

it to make cheap political points is a bit sick.

There is nothing political about it.

Fortunately no such tasteless remarks have been expressed by anyone on any of the radio or TV reports I've been following, so the grief of the families of the victims will not be exacerbated by anti gun control nuts.

If your media is anything like the US media they will probably harp on the storie for weeks, maybe read some note left by the piece of **** who murdered those people, make it all about the murderer while ignoring the victims and use this to show why we need to ban guns, although the only difference is your media will make it look like keeping citizens(or are the subject?) unarmed is a good thing. While stories that involve someone using a weapon to save other people gets ignored or only a token mention.

 

[Goshin]

The death toll is now 12 (13 including the shooter) with 30 different crime scenes. The witness reports make very upsetting listening. I have nothing to comment on Mr Ockham's ill-considered and inappropriate post. Perhaps you'd allow the dead to be buried before making political capital.

I'm very sorry that this happened. It is indeed tragic, and the fear that it inflicts on everyone in the area is not to be minimized. Last year, we had a serial killer in my home area, who killed a man I knew slightly not more than five miles from my home, and killed a total of five before being killed himself.

It is a terrible thing.

In regards to comments by Ockham and James, I think there is something worth considering here: in the past, the anti-gun political lobby has never been shy about using such tragedies to further their own political agenda. Indeed, I believe I am correct that it was a similar mass-killing that lead England to essentially ban handguns entirely. Nor is it at all beyond imagining that the anti-gun political crowd in Britain will use this tragedy in an effort to further restrict law-abiding gun owners and further impair the British citizen's right of self-defense. Viewed from that perspective, their comments are not without merit.

 

[Ockham]

The death toll is now 12 (13 including the shooter) with 30 different crime scenes. The witness reports make very upsetting listening. I have nothing to comment on Mr Ockham's ill-considered and inappropriate post. Perhaps you'd allow the dead to be buried before making political capital.

No it's best to strike while the emotional iron is hot. Dead is dead - they won't be any less or more so after they're buried. I know it sounds callous and unfeeling but the fact is people are literally sent to the slaughter by madmen like Bird. I'm asking what you'd suggest doing about it? Continue the current path and send innocents into the ground if they're unfortunate enough to run across another person like Bird in the future - or - give people a fighting chance to defend themselves without worrying about being jailed for it. Seems like a simple choice to me but perhaps it's not so easy for Brits.

 

[Andalublue]

I'm very sorry that this happened. It is indeed tragic, and the fear that it inflicts on everyone in the area is not to be minimized. Last year, we had a serial killer in my home area, who killed a man I knew slightly not more than five miles from my home, and killed a total of five before being killed himself.

It is a terrible thing.

In regards to comments by Ockham and James, I think there is something worth considering here: in the past, the anti-gun political lobby has never been shy about using such tragedies to further their own political agenda. Indeed, I believe I am correct that it was a similar mass-killing that lead England to essentially ban handguns entirely. Nor is it at all beyond imagining that the anti-gun political crowd in Britain will use this tragedy in an effort to further restrict law-abiding gun owners and further impair the British citizen's right of self-defense. Viewed from that perspective, their comments are not without merit.

I'm afraid I think that this issue might have a certain Clash of Civilisations aspect. In the UK and here in Spain, I wouldn't presume to speak with any confidence about other European countries, gun ownership has no philosophical, political or cultural weight. Owning a gun is something you do if you need to for hunting, pest control or sporting reasons. Gun ownership appears in neither the Spanish constitution nor any of the canon of laws and precedent that makes up the informal British constitution. Added to this, in Britain at least, the idea that gun ownership for personal safety purposes is a quite alien concept, the (unarmed) police are there to protect the citizen and someone who might claim the need to own a gun for personal protection has always been seen as an oddity, a bit weird in fact. And this has always been the case for at least 200 years. I realise that this culture is utterly different from the attitude to gun ownership in the US.

Beause of this culture of scepticism towards gun ownership spree killings seem to be a very rare and therefore very shocking event. The last spree killing in the UK was in 1996 in Dunblane. I certainly haven't been aware of any spree killings having taken place in Spain since I moved here in 2005. I think the incidence in the US is much greater. I'm not claiming any correlation between high levels of gun ownership and high levels of spree killing incidents as I don't have evidence to support such a claim. What I would claim is that the general public attitude towards such a tragic event is usually to support greater control of gun ownership.

When I use the expression "Clash of Civilisations" I mean that attitudes on either side of the Atlantic seem to be diametrically opposed. The same issue, the same set of circumstances seem to elicit entirely different reactions. I'm not going to be so arrogant as to claim moral superiority for our attitude, but I hope US posters won't do the same and might give some thought to the idea that one size of solution might not fit all.

 

[alexa]

I concur with what Andalublue has said. We do not want guns and we do not want our police armed while performing their normal duties either.

 

[Ockham]

I concur with what Andalublue has said. We do not want guns and we do not want our police armed while performing their normal duties either.

Then this will happen again... those who do not learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them. :shrug:

 

[alexa]

Then this will happen again... those who do not learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them. :shrug:

As Andalublue has accurately said this is a very uncommon occurance in this country, and, to be perfectly frank, I do not think I have noticed that having guns has been of much help to people caught in a similar situation to this in the US.

The overwhelming consensus in this country is that we do not want guns, not for ourselves or for our police. I think Andalublue's putting it as a 'clash of civilisations' over this is a very good one. Understand we do not want guns. No one is asking for guns. If there were anyway of having even less guns that is what they would be asking for, but again, in a situation like this, I have not noticed that having guns helps the US one bit and the US has a lot more incidents like this than we do.

 

[Ockham]

As Andalublue has accurately said this is a very uncommon occurance in this country, and, to be perfectly frank, I do not think I have noticed that having guns has been of much help to people caught in a similar situation to this in the US.

You'd have to look no further than the Hassan shooting. Cop took out Hassan as he opened up on fellow servicemen. Frankly- there are every day cases where break-ins, attempted rapes, thefts, etc. are either stopped or the perpetrators are shot. Even without a gun, defense of one's self, ]property and family is a key right. There's even a story in this thread which outlines how a gun saved someone.

The overwhelming consensus in this country is that we do not want guns, not for ourselves or for our police. I think Andalublue's putting it as a 'clash of civilisations' over this is a very good one. Understand we do not want guns. No one is asking for guns. If there were anyway of having even less guns that is what they would be asking for, but again, in a situation like this, I have not noticed that having guns helps the US one bit and the US has a lot more incidents like this than we do.

And that's perfectly fine - so I'll say it once more: Then this occurrence will happen again, and again. And it'll be just a sorrowful tragedy each and every time.

 

[alexa]

You'd have to look no further than the Hassan shooting. Cop took out Hassan as he opened up on fellow servicemen. Frankly- there are every day cases where break-ins, attempted rapes, thefts, etc. are either stopped or the perpetrators are shot. Even without a gun, defense of one's self, ]property and family is a key right. There's even a story in this thread which outlines how a gun saved someone.

Well that maybe so on some occasions, though personally I would prefer our police to deal with crime. They of course can get guns in special circumstances. We also do not have a death penalty so citizens killing their burglars and so on just would not sit so well here.

However your homicides far exceed ours. (the figures are for 2004)

England had 1.6 per 100,000 pop
Scotland had 2.6 per 100,000 pop
USA had 5.9 per 100,000 pop

Global homicide: murder rates around the world | News | guardian.co.uk

And that's perfectly fine - so I'll say it once more: Then this occurrence will happen again, and again. And it'll be just a sorrowful tragedy each and every time.

We may well. I think our last was about 14 years ago. Guns would not help us with this if the United States is anything to go by.

April 4, 2009, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania: 23 year-old Richard Poplawsk opened fire on officers during a domestic disturbance call Saturday morning, killing three of them, a police official said.

April 4, 2009: Binghamton, N.Y: Jiverly Voong aka Jiverly Wong?13 people in a shooting rampage inside a New York State immigration services centre

March 29, 2009: Robert Stewart, 45, shot and killed eight people at Pinelake Health and Rehab in Carthage, North Carolina, before a police officer shot him and ended the rampage.

March 29, 2009: Indian techie Devan Kalathat, 42, shot and killed his two children and three other relatives, then killed himself in an upscale neighbourhood of Santa Clara, California. Kalathat’s wife was critically injured.

March 21, 2009: Lovelle Mixon, 26, shot and killed four Oakland, California, police officers after a traffic stop. Mixon was killed in a shootout with SWAT officers.

March 10, 2009: Michael McLendon, 28, killed 10 people – including his mother, four other relatives, and the wife and child of a local sheriff’s deputy – across two rural Alabama counties. He then killed himself.

US mass shootings since March 10,2009 less than 1 month

and although our last to this mass killing was inside a school we have never had school children going in and gunning down their classmates.

It is sad what happened today for the people who died and their families. Let's not turn this into a pro gun rally thread.

 

[VanceMack]

The death toll is now 12 (13 including the shooter) with 30 different crime scenes. The witness reports make very upsetting listening. I have nothing to comment on Mr Ockham's ill-considered and inappropriate post. Perhaps you'd allow the dead to be buried before making political capital.

Hey, if the democrats led by Clinton can use the instance of a 7 year old getting a hold of his crack dealing uncles handgun and shooting his sister on time in Michigan as justification for promoting a magazine capacity ban, then gun nuts on the left ought to be able to use 30 different shooting sites with unarmed victims as a rallying cry for private ownership of firearms. Fair is fair...

 

[VanceMack]

Well that maybe so on some occasions, though personally I would prefer our police to deal with crime. They of course can get guns in special circumstances. We also do not have a death penalty so citizens killing their burglars and so on just would not sit so well here.

However your homicides far exceed ours. (the figures are for 2004)

England had 1.6 per 100,000 pop
Scotland had 2.6 per 100,000 pop
USA had 5.9 per 100,000 pop

Global homicide: murder rates around the world | News | guardian.co.uk



We may well. I think our last was about 14 years ago. Guns would not help us with this if the United States is anything to go by.



US mass shootings since March 10,2009 less than 1 month

and although our last to this mass killing was inside a school we have never had school children going in and gunning down their classmates.

It is sad what happened today for the people who died and their families. Let's not turn this into a pro gun rally thread.

Why not? Isnt it the position of Rahm and Obama that we should never let a good crisis go to waste?

 

[Ockham]

Well that maybe so on some occasions, though personally I would prefer our police to deal with crime. They of course can get guns in special circumstances. We also do not have a death penalty so citizens killing their burglars and so on just would not sit so well here.

However your homicides far exceed ours. (the figures are for 2004)

Yes there's all sorts of homicides though our country's don't quite count them the same way. Either way, I'd rather die defending myself against a person wanting to do me or my family harm than to die senselessly like these people did. And regarding burglars - Brits have a funny thing about that - they seem to encourage burglary somehow. Seem to recall some man a few years back being jailed beause he was robbed so many times that he finally took matters into his own hands and not only was jailed, but the burglar sued him and I think won. I'll look for the news story.

We may well. I think our last was about 14 years ago. Guns would not help us with this if the United States is anything to go by.

Not quite that long ago - and depending on where in the United State. If it was any large City - the police all carry guns. There are only 2 states, Wisconsin and Illinois that deny it's citizens the ability for Concealed Carry of firearms and some of those states like my own are very restrictive. Let me remind you that 37 people were hit, 12 died the rest injured. If this happened in the U.S., there would have been a better chance the guy wouldn't have killed or injured as many because citizens have access to weapons for defense. In Britain, there's zero chance. I'll take some over none any day.

BBC News - Man held for murder over triple shooting in Forest Gate

It is sad what happened today for the people who died and their families. Let's not turn this into a pro gun rally thread.

I defend your right to be disarmed and vulnerable. To each their own. But that's not me and by and large it's not the majority of American's.

 

[VanceMack]

Yes there's all sorts of homicides though our country's don't quite count them the same way. Either way, I'd rather die defending myself against a person wanting to do me or my family harm than to die senselessly like these people did. And regarding burglars - Brits have a funny thing about that - they seem to encourage burglary somehow. Seem to recall some man a few years back being jailed beause he was robbed so many times that he finally took matters into his own hands and not only was jailed, but the burglar sued him and I think won. I'll look for the news story.


Not quite that long ago - and depending on where in the United State. If it was any large City - the police all carry guns. There are only 2 states, Wisconsin and Illinois that deny it's citizens the ability for Concealed Carry of firearms and some of those states like my own are very restrictive. Let me remind you that 37 people were hit, 12 died the rest injured. If this happened in the U.S., there would have been a better chance the guy wouldn't have killed or injured as many because citizens have access to weapons for defense. In Britain, there's zero chance. I'll take some over none any day.

BBC News - Man held for murder over triple shooting in Forest Gate



I defend your right to be disarmed and vulnerable. To each their own. But that's not me and by and large it's not the majority of American's.

Not only do I defend it but I encourage them loudly and proudly proclaim that their home is a gun free and disarmed environment.

 

[Ockham]

Sorta like a big neon sign which states "ROB ME, PLEASE".