Google Fires Author of Divisive Memo on Gender Differences [W:547]

[poweRob]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

He posted something internally, in a space meant for employee suggestions as to how to improve the company, and someone else released it to the public. How did he "create" any such thing?

What, specifically, about what he wrote would "hinder their recruiting women" -- especially when he was specifically giving suggestions as to how to recruit and retain women better?

Please, give your analysis.

Personality differences

Extraversion expressed as gregariousness rather than assertiveness. Also, higher
agreeableness.

○ This leads to women generally having a harder time negotiating salary, asking for
raises, speaking up, and leading. Note that these are just average differences
and there’s overlap between men and women, but this is seen solely as a
women’s issue​

.​

He posted a slew of stupid generalities like this one above. This one basically says women aren't in leadership positions because women, as a personality trait, cannot lead well.

The stereotypes he is perpetuating at best may have roots that are sociological not physical and he is trying to pass it off as physiological reasons. And being sociological, it's just a matter of societal change which is happening. Women are entering the workforce in numbers not seen before. And his bullcrap is perpetuating "Mad Men" 1950's stereotypes that women just physiologically cannot do the work of men. And it's IT we are talking about here.

Full memo transcripts.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

Me personally, even though I disagree, I think Google had the right to remove this employee. But I also think the reasoning behind his firing was stupid, and makes the company look very hypocritical.

Basically, you are saying that (only?) the company has the right to be wrong.

I also agree that the company has the final say in who they choose to continue to employ.

The bigger issue is - was that decision good for business? A search engine must contain an algorithm to rank (order?) choices - if they sort their employees (weed out wrong choices?) based on ideology would they likely do that with their search results as well?

What would happen if folks decided to try other search engines to find out? Might they stumble on a competitor that they find they like better but otherwise would never have had reason to try?

 

[Visbek]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

Which comments, specifically, and how were they unacceptable?

Quote and explain.

There's too many to quote; doing so would violate the posting guidelines.

The problematic claims include stating there is a biological reason for women not to be engineers or in positions of authority; unjustifiably perpetuating stereotypes of men and women. His comments were couched in somewhat polite language, but were still the equivalent of saying "women should know their place."

He published it on a platform that Google specifically set up for employee suggestions.

The OP is mistakenly claiming that a company is somehow legally obligated to provide a platform for controversial views. I'm pointing out that the OP's view is incorrect.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

Personality differences

Extraversion expressed as gregariousness rather than assertiveness. Also, higher
agreeableness.

○ This leads to women generally having a harder time negotiating salary, asking for
raises, speaking up, and leading. Note that these are just average differences
and there’s overlap between men and women, but this is seen solely as a
women’s issue​

.​

He posted a slew of stupid generalities like this one above. This one basically says women aren't in leadership positions because women, as a personality trait, cannot lead well.

The stereotypes he is perpetuating at best may have roots that are sociological not physical and he is trying to pass it off as physiological reasons. And being sociological, it's just a matter of societal change which is happening. Women are entering the workforce in numbers not seen before. And his bullcrap is perpetuating "Mad Men" 1950's stereotypes that women just physiologically cannot do the work of men. And it's IT we are talking about here.

Full memo transcripts.

The original, https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf

Cernovich is a right wing hack, don't give him web traffic, please.

He's using averages, but that doesn't mean it's an absolute.
His original document has citations.

 

[Harshaw]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

You seem very triggered.

:roll: This is the best you've got.

As for dumbness, I think I spelled it out pretty clearly, so if you're not catching on, it's either because you can't, or because you are trying to troll. Either way, good for you, big fella. :thumbs:

Yes, you spelled out that you have no idea what the guy wrote, nor do you care, but think Google was right to fire him, VERY clearly . . .

 

[Visbek]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

You don't know that it did, because you don't know what he wrote, and what's more, you said outright that you don't care to know.

Dude? Gizmodo published it on Saturday.
deadspin-quote-carrot-aligned-w-bgr-2<\/title><path d="M10,3.5l3-3,3,3Z" style="fill:%23fff;stroke:%23fff"/><path d="M0,3.5H10l3-3,3,3H26" style="fill:none;stroke:%231b3a4d"/><\/svg>')}.f_branding_on.blog-group-deadspin .editor-inner.post-content .pu

 

[Harshaw]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

There's too many to quote; doing so would violate the posting guidelines.

LAAAAAAAME. Transparently so.

The problematic claims include stating there is a biological reason for women not to be engineers or in positions of authority; unjustifiably perpetuating stereotypes of men and women. His comments were couched in somewhat polite language, but were still the equivalent of saying "women should know their place."

What, specifically, did he say?

I don't think you have any real idea.

The OP is mistakenly claiming that a company is somehow legally obligated to provide a platform for controversial views. I'm pointing out that the OP's view is incorrect.

He didn't claim any such thing, and the company DID provide such a platform, and even says it encourages those views.

 

[Harshaw]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

Dude? Gizmodo published it on Saturday.
deadspin-quote-carrot-aligned-w-bgr-2<\/title><path d="M10,3.5l3-3,3,3Z" style="fill:%23fff;stroke:%23fff"/><path d="M0,3.5H10l3-3,3,3H26" style="fill:none;stroke:%231b3a4d"/><\/svg>')}.f_branding_on.blog-group-deadspin .editor-inner.post-content .pu

So what? How does this speak to my post? OlNate said specifically that he didn't read it, and he doesn't care. How does providing a link to it mean a thing to that?

And given that you know where to find it, why can't you come up with anything he actually said to support even a word of you wrote?

 

[ludin]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

Lets take this to extremes to make the visibility easier for everyone

Right because addressing what actually happened is impossible so you have to invent some stacked hypothetical.
come back when you want to have an actual honest discussion.

Overall does tolerance have to tolerate intolerance in order to be tolerant in the workplace? In my opinion it can not and remain an accepting workplace. One bad apple can spoil the barrel. In this case one bad employee can negatively harm the working environment

tolerance has a definition not your made up definition. Tolerant does not mean being tolerant of whatever i want.

the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.
that is the definition of tolerance. what the guy wrote people might not of liked. maybe it was a bit stupid, however people say and do things that are stupid and not liked all the time
so should they be fired as well? again you can't claim to be tolerant and be for inclusion and diversity while not applying those things in practice.
that would include opinions that you might or might not agree with.

The memo of course did not go into that extreme. But it certainly would make female readers feel that this person feels they do not belong and are not good at this career. Google is trying to encourage more women to enter the tech fields, this memo hurts that policy

so what? so google can express an opinion and as long as you agree with it then that is fine?
there are companies that are getting rid of their diversity departments because it is causing more strife in the company than not.

you can't say you are inclusive of people while leaving people on the outside.
that is a bit hypocritical.

 

[OlNate]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

:roll: This is the best you've got.

Yes, you spelled out that you have no idea what the guy wrote, nor do you care, but think Google was right to fire him, VERY clearly . . .

Based on the number of times you attempted to insult me, it's all I figured you were worth. Besides, anything more would be in violation of TOS, and I've already got some points I'm working off.

Ya, exactly - if the company is going public with the fact that he was fired to due to being at odds with the company policies, I believe them. When the judge comes out and rules in a wrongful dismissal case that Google was wrong, I'll believe they were wrong. :shrug:

 

[Visbek]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

LAAAAAAAME. Transparently so.

I got dinged for quoting more than 2 paragraphs from an external source last week. My decision to abide by the PG is entirely reasonable. If you don't like it, take it up with the mods.

What, specifically, did he say? I don't think you have any real idea.

I do, since I read the document... and it seems you did not.

He didn't claim any such thing, and the company DID provide such a platform, and even says it encourages those views.

The Left doesn't get this, but its not illegal to think or say or write about things they disagree with.

Uh, hello? Google is well within its rights to fire Damore.

1) Google has no responsibility whatsoever to give Damore a platform.
2) Google is not passing any laws, barring Damore or anti-diversity brogrammers from speaking.
3) Freedom of expression does not mean you also have freedom from the consequences of your statements.

 

[trouble13]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

By creating a PR nightmare that would hinder their recruiting women. Not a very smart guy.

With all the negative attention this is getting google may regret how they handled this. Its possible many future people will avoid seeking employment with them out of concern of thier policy of firing people they disagree with. Google may be shorting themselves of talent.



Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

 

[ludin]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

Yes. Firing someone for a difference of opinion runs contrary to them "championing a diversity of opinions" like Google says they do.

I think there is a line like all things there is a line in which something is said and done which takes it too far.
I know people that have been fired for a inside joke that someone heard and took it the wrong way.

Then i know some women that have said things at work that would never pass HR and this includes HR people.
but i work in a different atmosphere than most.

it is always one of those things that you have to know who you are talking too.
i agree google is looking a bit hypocritical.

i know some good engineers that are women and i know some bad ones. just like men.
i know that are good and bad as well.

 

[Athanasius68]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

Lets take this to extremes to make the visibility easier for everyone

Lets say the employee in question instead of writing a memo wore a KKK hood to work every day, he did his work very well. But with the hood he wore came letters saying east indians were not biologically good at math and the companies program to encourage east indians to work there was a bad thing. Should that employee be fired. He is certainly not making the workplace a tolerant work environment. Any east indians (and other ethnic groups would feel uncomfortable working around him. Many would probably leave

Would the tolerant thing be have him continue to work their. His intolerance is certainly making a horrible work environment.

Overall does tolerance have to tolerate intolerance in order to be tolerant in the workplace? In my opinion it can not and remain an accepting workplace. One bad apple can spoil the barrel. In this case one bad employee can negatively harm the working environment

Now for the white rights members, instead of a person wearing a KKK hood, imagine it was a Black Panther emblem and he was spouting black power slogans telling the east indians to go back where they came from.


The memo of course did not go into that extreme. But it certainly would make female readers feel that this person feels they do not belong and are not good at this career. Google is trying to encourage more women to enter the tech fields, this memo hurts that policy

The guy though is suggesting that the present efforts by Google are not working because of A, B, and C.
The objection hereabouts is that Google seems to be saying there is only one acceptable answer as to why women do not go into the computer field as much as men.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

you can't say you are inclusive of people while leaving people on the outside.
that is a bit hypocritical.

And if the people you want to leave on the outside, are the ones that want to leave other on the outside?

How does that work for creating a good work environment. Person A says Group x should not be there. That is certainly an intolerant position. Should the company tolerate that intolerant position, and by default accept it to a certain degree. Or should those that express intolerance be removed.

Tolerating the intolerant, makes the entire company intolerant, to which it could not say it is tolerant, as it accepts intolerant people and workers within its organization

 

[Harshaw]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

Based on the number of times you attempted to insult me, it's all I figured you were worth.

I did no such thing. I categorized what you said.

Besides, anything more would be in violation of TOS, and I've already got some points I'm working off.

Why would making an argument that's more intellectually sound be in violation of the TOS?

Ya, exactly - if the company is going public with the fact that he was fired to due to being at odds with the company policies, I believe them.

Yes, I know. You believe them, saying you don't care what he actually wrote.

Which is intellectually vapid.

 

[Harshaw]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

I got dinged for quoting more than 2 paragraphs from an external source last week. My decision to abide by the PG is entirely reasonable. If you don't like it, take it up with the mods.

LAAAAAAAME. My God, man, this is breathtaking.

I do, since I read the document... and it seems you did not.

There's no reason to believe that you have.

You certainly haven't demonstrated it, and you're doing everything you can to avoid actually quoting from it to support your claims.

So . . . "yeah-huh?" I don't get what you think this shows.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

Didn't read the memo, don't care what it says. Bottom line: it was deemed to violate company policy, and so the guy was fired. Avoiding entirely the subject material, if the guy was too stupid to realize he had a dream job working at Google, and violated their company policy to the point that they could fire him without fear of a wrongful dismissal case (yes, they would have gone through with their lawyers that prior to firing him) then HE's the dumbass, and deserves the reality check. Just because debate forums are hotbeds of controversy and fiery doesn't mean that's appropriate in the workplace. The guy would have been far better served if he hit the "STFU" button, rather than the Send button.

And that's without giving a single **** about what he said, or what anyone thinks about what he said. Isn't that the harsh world the Right keeps telling all us "snowflakes" about? Maybe he would have fared better with a safe space.


:lol:

While your logic may be sound, tow the company line or GTFO, the company line may be wrong. If the pool of best (most?) qualified applicants is mostly X and your company policy is to hire more Y thereby hiring (and retaining?) less X is that really a wise policy?

That is not to argue that no members of Y are qualified or that a more qualified X would be sent packing simply to hire the next best member of Y that applies but that is a distinct possibility if your primary goal is to have more Y (and thus less X).

 

[TheGoverness]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

How does that work for creating a good work environment. Person A says Group x should not be there. That is certainly an intolerant position.

But that's a ridiculous comparison, because nowhere in that suggestion did he say that a group of people should not be there. He did not say that women shouldn't be there.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

The guy though is suggesting that the present efforts by Google are not working because of A, B, and C.

Which he is saying is due to biological differences between men and women. What if instead of women he was talking about east Indians as an example.

So instead of biological differences between men and women he was saying the biological differences between east indians and caucasians were the reason for east indians not to have management positions (I know it is not the case in the tech industry but it is an example

 

[fmw]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

I didn't expect Google to fire this guy so quickly. This says very bad things about them & progressive culture

The Left doesn't get this, but its not illegal to think or say or write about things they disagree with.

Not an issue of legality. An issue of corporate reputation. Whistleblowers don't do any better in business than they do in government. If you don't like the corporate culture, go find one you do like. I guess that is what this whistleblower will now need to do.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

But that's a ridiculous comparison, because nowhere in that suggestion did he say that a group of people should not be there. He did not say that women shouldn't be there.

He said women were not as good at certain thing in general correct. That the policy of Google to mentor women into higher positions was a bad one. He is certainly making the impression that he feels that women in general are not appropriate to work in the tech industry. He did not say they should not be there, but the implication certainly is there

 

[Redress]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

It baffles me sometimes that people think "acting within your rights" and "doing the right thing" are synonymous.

Good line.

 

[ludin]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

And if the people you want to leave on the outside, are the ones that want to leave other on the outside?

How does that work for creating a good work environment. Person A says Group x should not be there. That is certainly an intolerant position. Should the company tolerate that intolerant position, and by default accept it to a certain degree. Or should those that express intolerance be removed.

Tolerating the intolerant, makes the entire company intolerant, to which it could not say it is tolerant, as it accepts intolerant people and workers within its organization

your making stuff up again.

difference of opinion is important in any work place environment. again please read the definition of tolerance because you are making up your own definition i even posted it for you.
i never understood why liberals don't understand definition of words and make things up to justify their position so i will post you the definition of tolerance again.

the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.


do you see that part? you can't claim tolerance while firing people that don't agree with you. it is the exact opposite.

https://www.economicvoice.com/study-says-men-are-more-decisive-than-women/

what the guy said was not off the mark.
when you are going for upper level management they want people that are more decisive.
which means getting the input from people and then making a decision in a timely manner.

 

[ludin]

Re: Google fires employee who penned controversial memo

He said women were not as good at certain thing in general correct. That the policy of Google to mentor women into higher positions was a bad one. He is certainly making the impression that he feels that women in general are not appropriate to work in the tech industry. He did not say they should not be there, but the implication certainly is there

so the only way to make your argument is to make up stuff like you have been doing this whole thread.
way to go in not being honest in the discussion. why can't you address what he said?