Getting the L out of LGBT

[X Factor]

Then you really don't know me. I'm for fairness and recognize there are balances to our rights.

In what situations would you actually oppose someone being sued/jailed for saying something disparaging to/about a trans person. Can you envision any at all?

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

And you are describing unfair stereotypes. You can't tell any of those things from people just because of their relative sexes or sexes in general.

I agree.

That is why I said from the very beginning, it was only the opinion of two people I knew that owned rental property in Ft Lauderdale.

It is what they told me, and now I am passing it on.

and please do not discuss with me about UNFAIR stereotypes......I am a white, heterosexual male, middle aged, gun owning, home owning, 100% disabled veteran.

The entire population of the world unfairly stereotypes me. I KNOW! They do it every day. It is completely politically correct for everyone to hate every bone in my body.

 

[roguenuke]

In what situations would you actually oppose someone being sued/jailed for saying something disparaging to/about a trans person. Can you envision any at all?

I never once said I support anyone being jailed for saying something to another person. It's a civil matter, not a criminal one.

 

[roguenuke]

I agree.

That is why I said from the very beginning, it was only the opinion of two people I knew that owned rental property in Ft Lauderdale.

It is what they told me, and now I am passing it on.

and please do not discuss with me about UNFAIR stereotypes......I am a white, heterosexual male, middle aged, gun owning, home owning, 100% disabled veteran.

The entire population of the world unfairly stereotypes me. I KNOW! They do it every day. It is completely politically correct for everyone to hate every bone in my body.

No it is not politically correct to stereotype you. Neither is it fair when it's done. Everyone faces stereotypes but that doesn't mean those stereotypes should be acted on.

 

[roguenuke]

I think it was when you equated a free lunch in the park with statutory rape.

Saying a situation involves undue influence doesn't have anything to do with statutory rape. Undue influence can be involved in many different things dealing with minors.

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

No it is not politically correct to stereotype you. Neither is it fair when it's done. Everyone faces stereotypes but that doesn't mean those stereotypes should be acted on.

I thank you for your kindness.

I have to say, though, that even though it is wrong, I am the recipient of it about five or six times a week. Mostly on-line where it does not count, thankfully. But it is definitely there.

I also know human nature being what it is, we all stereotype at times and are accurate when we do.

SCENE: A lone bar on the side of the road. Two vehicles parked in the parking lot. One is a beatup Chevy with an NRA sticker, and a gun rack visable through the back window. Strands of hay in the bed, and a truck toolbox also in the bed.

the other vehicle is a small car with a college parking sticker, a dream catcher dangling from the rear view mirror, and a mess of fast food crap in the back and passenger seat.

You walk in the bar and see an old cowboy and a young lady in her 20's at the bar.

Match the vehicle to the person. This is not a trick question.

some stereo types are not bad, but just are.

 

[X Factor]

What are you talking about?

I can look for the quotes but it really isn't relative to this thread. I really am not an enemy to this whole trans thing. I've tried to understand it. I just oppose extremism heading in the opposite way and I that's what you represent to me. I don't agree with telling women they need to be fine with sharing their bathroom with the Hells Angels. I think the safety and comfort of non trans people should matter too and I don't believe people should be sued or jailed for not believing it's even possible to change sexes. I think some of their arguments do have some merit. I don't think it's "perfectly normal" to be trans or that a trans woman is exactly the same as a woman who was born female.

I've mentioned it before but there's a trans woman here who actually claimed some years ago that she was being discriminated against because some doc told her she didn't need that pelvic exam women do every year or so. I don't think that's discrimination, I think that's just reality like how a male to female trans woman will have physical strength advantage when competing with someone who was born female. These things may not be convenient or PC but truth is truth, no mater how much you advocate for silencing it by threat of punishment.

 

[roguenuke]

I thank you for your kindness.

I have to say, though, that even though it is wrong, I am the recipient of it about five or six times a week. Mostly on-line where it does not count, thankfully. But it is definitely there.

I also know human nature being what it is, we all stereotype at times and are accurate when we do.

SCENE: A lone bar on the side of the road. Two vehicles parked in the parking lot. One is a beatup Chevy with an NRA sticker, and a gun rack visable through the back window. Strands of hay in the bed, and a truck toolbox also in the bed.

the other vehicle is a small car with a college parking sticker, a dream catcher dangling from the rear view mirror, and a mess of fast food crap in the back and passenger seat.

You walk in the bar and see an old cowboy and a young lady in her 20's at the bar.

Match the vehicle to the person. This is not a trick question.

some stereo types are not bad, but just are.

Jeff Dunham and his powder blue Prius came to mind here.

I find it better to wait and see. It's fine to make assumptions but acting on those stereotyping assumptions is different. I face it myself. One of the clearest examples is when my husband and I go out occasionally for the free veterans meals at Golden Coral or other places on Veterans Day and/or Memorial Day. I've stood there once while this older veteran in front of us in line turned right to my husband and said "Thank You for your service", the sentiment was exchanged, and then he started sharing and asking about experiences only from my husband. I was completely ignored. And that isn't the only time something like that has happened.

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

Jeff Dunham and his powder blue Prius came to mind here.

I find it better to wait and see. It's fine to make assumptions but acting on those stereotyping assumptions is different. I face it myself. One of the clearest examples is when my husband and I go out occasionally for the free veterans meals at Golden Coral or other places on Veterans Day and/or Memorial Day. I've stood there once while this older veteran in front of us in line turned right to my husband and said "Thank You for your service", the sentiment was exchanged, and then he started sharing and asking about experiences only from my husband. I was completely ignored. And that isn't the only time something like that has happened.

Yup,
You know their hearts are in the right place, but still.....

once a local church in Tennessee came to the base and invited us to come along to services. A WAVE lady friend and I went together. After Sunday school this sweet lady was talking to her and when she found out she was one of the sailors from the base, she said....now get this....

" but you look like a normal girl! "

Dale said, " I AM a normal girl "

So I hear ya.

 

[X Factor]

I never once said I support anyone being jailed for saying something to another person.

It's a civil matter, not a criminal one.

Right now it may be but my suspicion is that you might like to see the potential for criminal consequences but may not want to say so yet. Regardless, this really is a bit of an evasion of my question but fine. Can you envision any circumstance where someone should not be sued for not accepting a trans woman as a woman?

 

[roguenuke]

Right now it may be but my suspicion is that you might like to see the potential for criminal consequences but may not want to say so yet. Regardless, this really is a bit of an evasion of my question but fine. Can you envision any circumstance where someone should not be sued for not accepting a trans woman as a woman?

Plenty. If someone doesn't want to date a transwomen or transmen for that reason, so be it. It's part of life and actually understandable. If they are talking in public, in private, online, and it isn't in work or school (of course in either place lawsuits should only arise if other actions aren't taken, especially at the least initiating an investigation), then it is free speech. Still doesn't mean there aren't any consequences you might face on a social or personal level for that speech.

 

[roguenuke]

Yup,
You know their hearts are in the right place, but still.....

once a local church in Tennessee came to the base and invited us to come along to services. A WAVE lady friend and I went together. After Sunday school this sweet lady was talking to her and when she found out she was one of the sailors from the base, she said....now get this....

" but you look like a normal girl! "

Dale said, " I AM a normal girl "

So I hear ya.

One of the girls on the ship said her grandmother tried really hard to discourage her from joining, claiming all those girl sailors were lesbians.

 

[X Factor]

Plenty. If someone doesn't want to date a transwomen or transmen for that reason, so be it. It's part of life and actually understandable.

Lol, thanks for allowing that people should not be sued for not dating a trans woman/man. Very generous.

If they are talking in public, in private, online, and it isn't in work or school (of course in either place lawsuits should only arise if other actions aren't taken, especially at the least initiating an investigation), then it is free speech. Still doesn't mean there aren't any consequences you might face on a social or personal level for that speech.

Sure, just like there might be consequences for screaming in the faces of some guys talking in a restaurant that are saying things about trans people you dislike or disagree with. Just saying, those consequence you advocate can cut in all directions.

 

[roguenuke]

Lol, thanks for allowing that people should not be sued for not dating a trans woman/man. Very generous.

Sure, just like there might be consequences for screaming in the faces of some guys talking in a restaurant that are saying things about trans people you dislike or disagree with. Just saying, those consequence you advocate can cut in all directions.

You were asking various situations I would find not worthy of suing. There are plenty more. You are the one starting from this really warped perspective of my position. There are only limited times I would support someone suing for speech against them, but it isn't limited to any particular group.

And physically assaulting someone comes with consequences of its own, generally charges but also some civil liability is possible. There doesn't have to be a good guy and bad guy in such situation either. There are ways to handle such things without yelling in someone's face and certainly without assaulting someone.

 

[Henrin]

I think the safety and comfort of non trans people should matter too and I don't believe people should be sued or jailed for not believing it's even possible to change sexes.

Biologists don't even buy into that argument. :shrug: As for the argument they change their gender it should be noted that people that use that belief are using an understanding of gender that has only been around since the 1970's.

 

[Henrin]

Then you really don't know me. I'm for fairness and recognize there are balances to our rights.

Ok, so what right do you have for people to not recognize your requests for how you should be addressed. I'll wait.

 

[Henrin]

They already have a diagnosis for believing you are God, it's called narcissistic personality (or something like that).

So narcissistic people should have their desires ignored? What if it causes me stress, anxiety and depression? That's mean girl. :lamo

 

[Henrin]

I never once said I support anyone being jailed for saying something to another person. It's a civil matter, not a criminal one.

Where does the first amendment allow the government to punish people for speech in civil matters? I'll wait..

 

[roguenuke]

Biologists don't even buy into that argument. :shrug: As for the argument they change their gender it should be noted that people that use that belief are using an understanding of gender that has only been around since the 1970's.

Except the idea of people changing their gender or being of a different gender has existed long before that including in many different cultures.

 

[Henrin]

And if you do it in a work environment you can find yourself fired or sued. In a public business, you can be asked to leave. There are consequences for actions even speech.

You should move to Europe where they don't have things like the first amendment.

 

[roguenuke]

Where does the first amendment allow the government to punish people for speech in civil matters? I'll wait..

Go ahead and wait. All rights have some limitations, whether you agree with them or not. The Courts have decided this as well. Those limitations are few but they do exist, because other rights have been recognized as needing to be balanced.

 

[roguenuke]

You should move to Europe where they don't have things like the first amendment.

You live in an idealized world. Rights, including free speech, are limited. You are free to believe otherwise, but that doesn't change reality.

 

[Henrin]

Go ahead and wait. All rights have some limitations, whether you agree with them or not. The Courts have decided this as well. Those limitations are few but they do exist, because other rights have been recognized as needing to be balanced.

Interesting. So how can the government pass laws abridging free speech when the first amendment says they can't? How about you don't avoid the question or appeal to SC decisions this time.

 

[roguenuke]

Interesting. So how can the government pass laws abridging free speech when the first amendment says they can't? How about you don't avoid the question or appeal to SC decisions this time.

SC decisions are part of constitutional law, as are lower court decisions, at least to a point.

 

[Henrin]

You live in an idealized world. Rights, including free speech, are limited. You are free to believe otherwise, but that doesn't change reality.

I live in this world obviously, but I believe people like you have corrupted it with your bulll****. There is a difference.