Gender Pronouns

[Lisa]

That seems to be a different study. This study was female to male (penis construction).

What did you copy/paste to find that? Did you copy from my original post on the topic, because that finds it very easily.

From the study - copy/paste:

FtM bottom surgery is still in its infancy. Many trans guys do not have that surgery because the results are not good. Medical science is still working on creating a functional penis, which is much more difficult than to create a vagina.

 

[buck]

FtM bottom surgery is still in its infancy. Many trans guys do not have that surgery because the results are not good. Medical science is still working on creating a functional penis, which is much more difficult than to create a vagina.

OK, sounds like you changed your mind on this:

Lisa said:
Most trans people would have the confirmation surgery but it is often not covered by either private insurance or universal healthcare and they don't have the $30,000 in cash between the mattress.

.

Yay.

I do like that you were able to search for a study, when you thought it would be positive to your side.. but not when you thought it would be negative... You had no interest.

 

[Lisa]

OK, sounds like you changed your mind on this:


Yay.

I do like that you were able to search for a study, when you thought it would be positive to your side.. but not when you thought it would be negative... You had no interest.

Visbeck did your work for you in #248. You are intellectually dishonest and lazy.

 

[buck]

Visbeck did your work for you in #248. You are intellectually dishonest and lazy.

I responded to him in post 250. I am not dishonest and what I indicated is accurate. He had the wrong study - he absolutely deserves credit for searching (though, I'm not sure what he was searching for - since it had nothing to do with what I posted.)

I know you aren't interested. Whenever a study is posted disagreeing with your ideology, you ignore that study and pretend it doesn't exist. I've posted more then a few (very) recent studies that contradict your claims.

The science around Trans issues is low quality. We should be doing far better and stop the experimentation, you Nazi.

 

[Lisa]

I responded to him in post 250. I am not dishonest and what I indicated is accurate. He had the wrong study - he absolutely deserves credit for searching (though, I'm not sure what he was searching for - since it had nothing to do with what I posted.)

I know you aren't interested. Whenever a study is posted disagreeing with your ideology, you ignore that study and pretend it doesn't exist. I've posted more then a few (very) recent studies that contradict your claims.

The science around Trans issues is low quality.

There is no transgender ideology, just as there is no gay agenda.

Medical science is not perfect in any area but not treating trans people until it is perfected it much worse. What is your preferred treatment of transgender people if you claim to know so much more than Drs and psychologists?

We should be doing far better and stop the experimentation, you Nazi.

Congrats on the the Godwin.

 

[Sweden]

Is there any evidence that the person is Napoleon Bonaparte, unlike people who are transgendered, where there is more than a little evidence. Your idea that human sexuality id defined wholly by genetalia was considered passe in thee 1960s. Human sexuality is not that simple.


You made the claim so post the study in question or admit that you made it up. I'm not playing your game that I have to go find the study to defend your claims.

When people say they are 'transgendered' these statements are not evidence but claims. They may honestly believe they have changed sex but be mistaken. I wonder what you would consider evidence that change of sex, from male to female or female to male has actually occurre?

I agree that sexuality is not defined by genitalia or chromosomes ( homosexuality certainly exists, as does bisexuality) but sex is so defined and is immutable. The DNA in the billions of cells in a human body remain the same whatever is done to that body.

 

[buck]

Medical science is not perfect in any area but not treating trans people until it is perfected it much worse. What is your preferred treatment of transgender people if you claim to know so much more than Drs and psychologists?

20% of the patients had worse mental health after the procedure. An average of 2 complications per patient. The science for PB and cross sex hormones is "very low quality". These things are not good.

Counseling, probing and push back to see what is really going on (especially for the ROGD brand) rather than affirmation. The creators of the Dutch protocol agree.

Get the activists out of the science and ensure a full airing of the science on the both sides (get politics out of it).

Until the risk/benefit are certain, stop puberty blockers (and mastectomies) on kids. There are negative, physical effects and a recent study has found "no significant effect on their psychological function, thoughts of self-harm, or body image" following the use of puberty blockers.

]Congrats on the the Godwin.

If it quacks like a NAZI, then it probably is. Wait... did you think you were the only one that should godwin? Why can you call others nazis, but i can't call you one? You're demanding what other people do, think and say.. You're pushing for surgical experimentation (even on kids). Yech.

 

[buck]

When people say they are 'transgendered' these statements are not evidence but claims.

anecdotally, the numbers of de-transitioners are increasing. However, that is currently impossible to confirm, as there are no studies to confirm or deny. The numbers that are currently out there are nonsense and based on flawed methodology. Finding this information should be done, so we can ensure we are dealing with correct information.

 

[Phys251]

anecdotally, the numbers of de-transitioners are increasing. However, that is currently impossible to confirm, as there are no studies to confirm or deny. The numbers that are currently out there are nonsense and based on flawed methodology. Finding this information should be done, so we can ensure we are dealing with correct information.

I remember the claims from the homophobes of people ceasing to be gay. Most of those cases were either coerced or just natural fluctuations in people's sexuality.

The same crap is coming against trans people with only the slightest variation in tactics.

 

[buck]

I remember the claims from the homophobes of people ceasing to be gay. Most of those cases were either coerced or just natural fluctuations in people's sexuality.

The same crap is coming against trans people with only the slightest variation in tactics.

Ah. Can't wait to see the study that "most de-transitioners" were coerced., based on such declaritive statements.

Here is someone that was coerced too - through affirmation:

We Need Balance When It Comes To Gender Dysphoric Kids. I Would Know | Opinion (newsweek.com)

Throughout transition, I second-guessed my decisions, but each counseling session and doctor's appointment amounted to one more push convincing me I could be cured of being born in the wrong body.

We don't have good information, so have to currently rely on anecdotal. They should get some good information on this all eventually.

 

[Lisa]

20% of the patients had worse mental health after the procedure. An average of 2 complications per patient. The science for PB and cross sex hormones is "very low quality". These things are not good.

Counseling, probing and push back to see what is really going on (especially for the ROGD brand) rather than affirmation. The creators of the Dutch protocol agree.

Get the activists out of the science and ensure a full airing of the science on the both sides (get politics out of it).

Until the risk/benefit are certain, stop puberty blockers (and mastectomies) on kids. There are negative, physical effects and a recent study has found "no significant effect on their psychological function, thoughts of self-harm, or body image" following the use of puberty blockers.



If it quacks like a NAZI, then it probably is. Wait... did you think you were the only one that should Godwin? Why can you call others nazis, but i can't call you one? You're demanding what other people do, think and say.. You're pushing for surgical experimentation (even on kids). Yech.

I trust Ph.D. psychologists, psychiatrists, and endocrinologists who have made human sexuality their life study far more than self-qualified internet forum experts such as you.

When people say they are 'transgendered' these statements are not evidence but claims. They may honestly believe they have changed sex but be mistaken. I wonder what you would consider evidence that change of sex, from male to female or female to male has actually occurred?

I agree that sexuality is not defined by genitalia or chromosomes ( homosexuality certainly exists, as does bisexuality) but sex is so defined and is immutable. The DNA in the billions of cells in a human body remains the same whatever is done to that body.

Nobody has ever claimed that the DNA changes because someone was treated with sex hormones and then gender surgery, so stop trying to inject your own absurd ideas and accusing others of supporting them. Medical science changes the outward appearance of the body and their external genital, as much as possible with current technology, to allow transgender people to function as their psychological gender identity. Nobody with more than 4 functional neurons has ever claimed the person's DNA or chromosomes has ever changed.

 

[buck]

I trust Ph.D. psychologists, psychiatrists, and endocrinologists who have made human sexuality their life study far more than self-qualified internet forum experts such as you.

I am quoting studies, which, you want to ignore. In other words, you are actually ignoring the experts doing the research and studies because they disagree with what you want to believe.

The experts review the use of PB's and find that have "no significant effect on their psychological function, thoughts of self-harm, or body image" and they are actually causing physical harm.

So, PB's cause physical damage, and they have little mental improvement. Why would we ever do that.. Unless we ignore the research and studies.

 

[Lisa]

I am quoting studies, which, you want to ignore. In other words, you are actually ignoring the experts doing the research and studies because they disagree with what you believe.

Puberty blockers are having adverse physical impacts. The experts review the work and find PB's have "no significant effect on their psychological function, thoughts of self-harm, or body image"

So, we cause physical damage, and they have little mental improvement.

No drugs are perfect and all have known risks/contraindication, but nobody is being forced to take them or being prescribed those medications and not given information to make their own choice beforehand.

There are other med/psych conditions that are commonly seen in trans people such as anxiety and depression be from being denied care, discrimination, and abuse, and nobody is under the impression that hormones will address those problems. Many trans people are also under the impression that there is no follow-up care other than talking hormones but that is very wrong. The follow-up care from many Drs is very poor and there is still much to learn about the condition.

Nobody is saying that the current treatment is perfect but it is much better than doing nothing and it gives them a higher quality of life.

 

[buck]

No drugs are perfect and all have known risks/contraindication, but nobody is being forced to take them or being prescribed those medications and not given information to make their own choice beforehand.

There are other med/psych conditions that are commonly seen in trans people such as anxiety and depression be from being denied care, discrimination, and abuse, and nobody is under the impression that hormones will address those problems. Many trans people are also under the impression that there is no follow-up care other than talking hormones but that is very wrong. The follow-up care from many Drs is very poor and there is still much to learn about the condition.

Nobody is saying that the current treatment is perfect but it is much better than doing nothing and it gives them a higher quality of life.

Yes, we agree.. Negative physical impacts and little mental improvement is definetly not "perfect".

We simply disagree that little mental improvement and negative, physical (life long) impacts from a medication is not better than doing nothing.

That is what the experts are finding. You want to ignore them.

 

[Lisa]

Yes, we agree.. Negative physical impacts and little mental improvement is definitely not "perfect".

We simply disagree that little mental improvement and negative, physical (life long) impacts from medication is not better than doing nothing.

That is what the experts are finding. You want to ignore them.

Puberty blockers are only given for a few years in the early teens as a way to prevent the body from maturing in the wrong physical gender. . They aren't a lifetime. Adults don't take puberty blockers but instead, take spironalactone.

You have no business telling others what their quality of life is and what they can or cannot have because of your lay opinions.

How many trans people do you know on a first-name basis? How many support group meetings have you been invited to attend?

 

[buck]

Puberty blockers are only given for a few years in the early teens as a way to prevent the body from maturing in the wrong physical gender. . They aren't a lifetime. Adults don't take puberty blockers but instead, take spironalactone

Umm.. I have no idea what you are on about. Of course PB aren't being given to adults for a trans diagnosis.

The studies are showing that PB for kids have permanent, negative physical impacts. Those impacts last for their lifetime. This would include a reduced IQ (8 pointes) and bone density issues amongst others. Puberty blockers are not reversible. Puberty will (re)start once the PB is removed, but time is missed that is not made up.

Not only are PBs creating negative, physicals impacts, but they are not creating a positive "significant effect on their psychological function, thoughts of self-harm, or body image".

Seems like poor cost/benefit analysis to me.

These are some of the reasons other countries are putting a pause (see Sweden and the UK) and the creator of the Dutch protocol is saying we really need to study this more. Our treatment is being misused.

 

[Lisa]

Umm.. I have no idea what you are on about. Of course PB aren't being given to adults for a trans diagnosis.

The studies are showing that PB for kids have permanent, negative physical impacts. Those impacts last for their lifetime. This would include a reduced IQ (8 pointes) and bone density issues amongst others. Puberty blockers are not reversible. Puberty will (re)start once the PB is removed, but time is missed that is not made up.

Not only are PBs creating negative, physicals impacts, but they are not creating a positive "significant effect on their psychological function, thoughts of self-harm, or body image".

Seems like poor cost/benefit analysis to me.

These are some of the reasons other countries are putting a pause (see Sweden and the UK) and the creator of the Dutch protocol is saying we really need to study this more. Our treatment is being misused.

Puberty blockers are not given for psychological reasons.
You should cite better sources,

January 2021

RE: Pubertal Suppression for Transgender Youth and Risk of Suicidal Ideation

• Jack L Turban, Fellow in Child & Adolescent Psychiatry, Stanford University School of Medicine
• Other Contributors:
  • Jeremi Carswell, Assistant Professor of Pediatrics
  • Alex S Keuroghlian, Associate Professor

We thank Dr. Clarke for his interest in our article. We appreciate the opportunity to address his comments and correct the inaccurate information contained in them.
Dr. Clarke incorrectly states that this manuscript found an increase in recent serious suicide attempts among those who accessed pubertal suppression during adolescence. Though the raw values were higher for some of these outcomes, this was not a statistically significant finding, and thus the appropriate conclusion is that the study found no statistically significant association between access to pubertal suppression and greater odds of any measure of adverse mental health outcomes.
Dr. Clarke claims that the study participants responses were “biased,” based on the nature of the USTS sampling methodology. Though he does not clarify this comment, it appears he is referencing the fact that this is a non-probability sample. Non-probability samples are frequently used when studying minority populations, as they allow investigators to recruit large sample sizes and ask in-depth questions specific to the minority population being studied, which is generally not possible with probability samples.

Pubertal Suppression for Transgender Youth and Risk of Suicidal Ideation

BACKGROUND AND OBJECTIVES: Gonadotropin-releasing hormone analogues are commonly prescribed to suppress endogenous puberty for transgender adolescents. There are limited data regarding the mental health benefits of this treatment. Our objective for this study was to examine associations between...

pediatrics.aappublications.org

Puberty blockers are reversible,

Puberty blockers allow patients more time to solidify their gender identity, without developing secondary sex characteristics. If a child later decides not to transition to another gender the medication can be stopped, allowing puberty to proceed, as the effects are fully reversible.

Wiki

 

[Phys251]

Ah. Can't wait to see the study that "most de-transitioners" were coerced., based on such declaritive statements.

Buck thinks he knows more than all psychologists combined. What hubris.

 

[buck]

Puberty blockers are not given for psychological reasons.
You should cite better sources,

The big argument for them is that it results in better mental health. But, if you disagree, then great.. No reason to keep using them.

It's why more than a couple of countries are putting the brakes on PBs. And the high court in Britain was aghast at what was happening and how poor the research was around puberty blockers - even Turban's research.

From a new study in the British Medical Journal:

Puberty blockers used to treat children aged 12 to 15 who have severe and persistent gender dysphoria had no significant effect on their psychological function, thoughts of self-harm, or body image, a study has found.

However, as expected, the children experienced reduced growth in height and bone strength by the time they finished their treatment at age

 

[buck]

Buck thinks he knows more than all psychologists combined. What hubris.

With all of the "psychologists combined" knowing it, then surely there is some study / research showing that most de-transitoners "were either coerced or just natural fluctuations"... You know. The same as those that ceased being gay.

 

[Phys251]

With all of the "psychologists combined" knowing it

It doesn't matter! You know more than all of them! Since you've got all that smartness, let's see you prove that knowledge. Keep in mind that this is a very high bar for you to clear.

 

[Phys251]

I am simply providing studies

You have nothing of value to contribute. All you've got to offer is the latest instance of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[Lisa]

The big argument for them is that it results in better mental health. But, if you disagree, then great.. No reason to keep using them.

It's why more than a couple of countries are putting the brakes on PBs. And the high court in Britain was aghast at what was happening and how poor the research was around puberty blockers - even Turban's research.

From a new study in the British Medical Journal:

Stop reading BS blogs and conservative sources that tell you half of the story because of their biased opinions.


Puberty blockers are not about mental health snd more than hormones are. They are to stop the body from maturing in the wrong gender so that fewer hormones are needed and the person isn't forced to fight against their body to mature it in the gender of their gender identity. Long term the entire process is about mental health but blockers by themselves are not about mental health despite what a biased blog has told you.

Puberty blockers were never meant for transgeendered, but like most drugs that are used for transgendered care, they were adopted. There are too few trans people to make it fiscally feasible to create drugs just for this situation.

It is more and more obvious that you don't understand the big picture or the goals but only a few conservative talking points that you repeat ad nauseaum.

 

[buck]

View attachment 67327357

That is funny. Cept, the experts doing the research are finding things aren't quite as settled as you seem to believe and have released studies backing that up. The NHS/NICE reviewed the evidence for PB and cross sex hormones, finding the research was very low quality / certainty.

Let's hope more research is completed to ensure the best treatment is rendered.

 

[Bodi]

Lol. My sister is gay, I support gay marriage, and I couldn't give a rats if someone thought I was gay or not. Nor am I transphobic, but transwomen are biologically male - that is just a fact; it's not mean, it's not an insult or a slur, it's a statement of biological reality.

I don't understand why people can't just admit this... it is simply a fact.