Free govt.-issued ID to all Americans?

[ttwtt78640]

A poll tax is a fixed tax that is specifically applied to voting.


I don't really care if the homeless vote or not. honestly, I'd prefer they didn't, since they most likely have no clue what the issues are, who represents what, and have no stock in the outcome.


It's the same everywhere.


It's not a poll tax for reasons I've already stated. If you want to vote, make sure you have your DL or state ID by November. The state is not at fault for individual citizens failure to prepare, and it's not the impossible task you're trying to make it out to be. If you're rushing to get an ID on November 1st, you're doing it wrong. Next cycle people will be saying that the cost of gas required to get to the polling place is poll tax.

That very same, valid, state issued, photo ID is required to buy alcohol, tobacco, firearms, ammunition and prescription drugs. If those "rights" are not free then why should voting as many times as you wish and as whoever you simply say that you are be "free"? If the person is not identifiable, except by their own word, then how is their age, citizenship status, felony status or legal residency to be verified?

 

[Goshin]

If you require an ID, the fee for the ID becomes a poll tax because you can't vote without one.

Most states will issue a state picture ID and I think the cost is usually pretty trivial.... like less than $20. If you cant come up with 20 bucks you have worse problems than voting....

You're the problem then. The right to vote is fundamental. A homeless person without a cent to his name has just as much right to vote as a billionaire. It's anti-democratic to deny anyone the right to vote

We are not a democracy, we are a Republic. Universal suffrage is not inherent to a Republic, and indeed I have often wondered if simply "giving" people franchise, instead of requiring they "earn" it through service to the nation somewhow, isn't a bad idea.

 

[ttwtt78640]

If you require an ID, the fee for the ID becomes a poll tax because you can't vote without one.




You're the problem then. The right to vote is fundamental. A homeless person without a cent to his name has just as much right to vote as a billionaire. It's anti-democratic to deny anyone the right to vote.

They also have as much right as "anyone" to buy alcohol, tobacco, guns, ammo and prescription drugs yet NO action was taken to protect those "rights". The hypocrisy is amazing! "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" seems to guarantee that same homeless guy may carry a handgun as well, does it not?

 

[Luna Tick]

Most states will issue a state picture ID and I think the cost is usually pretty trivial.... like less than $20. If you cant come up with 20 bucks you have worse problems than voting....

The cost is not trivial to some poor people, and they should not be denied their voting rights.

We are not a democracy, we are a Republic. Universal suffrage is not inherent to a Republic, and indeed I have often wondered if simply "giving" people franchise, instead of requiring they "earn" it through service to the nation somewhow, isn't a bad idea.

We're not a democracy. We're a plutocracy thanks to the Citizens United ruling. We're a former democracy with some vestiges of it left over, the right to vote being one of them. And don't give me that "we're a Republic" hair splitting. We vote both for representative government and directly for issues via ballot initiatives. Now that Citizens United has devalued our democracy into plutocracy via unlimited floods of corporate bribes into the political process, preserving the right to vote for everyone is of paramount importance. Denying it has been a tactic used for centuries. The poll tax originally was meant to block newly freed blacks from voting. Sexist stereotypes were used to deny women the right to vote. No citizen should be denied. Having money should not be a requirement to vote. Poll taxes were one of the ugliest and most bigoted chapters of American history. We should not repeat it.

They also have as much right as "anyone" to buy alcohol, tobacco, guns, ammo and prescription drugs yet NO action was taken to protect those "rights". The hypocrisy is amazing! "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" seems to guarantee that same homeless guy may carry a handgun as well, does it not?

That's a silly comparison. None of those things have anything to do with determining our elected representation. The right to vote is fundamental. Even a person without two dimes to rub together deserves the right to vote. You could buy one gun or a thousand guns without it affecting the outcome of an election.

 

[Goshin]

The cost is not trivial to some poor people, and they should not be denied their voting rights.



We're not a democracy. We're a plutocracy thanks to the Citizens United ruling. We're a former democracy with some vestiges of it left over, the right to vote being one of them. And don't give me that "we're a Republic" hair splitting. We vote both for representative government and directly for issues via ballot initiatives. Now that Citizens United has devalued our democracy into plutocracy via unlimited floods of corporate bribes into the political process, preserving the right to vote for everyone is of paramount importance. Denying it has been a tactic used for centuries. The poll tax originally was meant to block newly freed blacks from voting. Sexist stereotypes were used to deny women the right to vote. No citizen should be denied. Having money should not be a requirement to vote. Poll taxes were one of the ugliest and most bigoted chapters of American history. We should not repeat it.



That's a silly comparison. None of those things have anything to do with determining our elected representation. The right to vote is fundamental. Even a person without two dimes to rub together deserves the right to vote. You could buy one gun or a thousand guns without it affecting the outcome of an election.

I think I like you better when you're just being Luna Tick. :mrgreen:

 

[jet57]

How do you know they are an American citizen? At minimum, having to show a simple photo ID will reduce fraud, and increase confidence in the voting system for everyone. Again, it is not a lot to ask. It is something so very simple and basic. Showing a photo ID helps increase the chances of having accurate and fair elections.

That question can be asked of anybody. Voter ID is unAmerican. It makes a person like myself have to prove that I can vote. And that just flies in the face of the American ideal. It won't solve things like ballot box stuffing, or voter intimidation; it's just another version of intimidation that is designed to be so late in the election that most won't make the deadline.

It's cheating.

 

[radcen]

That question can be asked of anybody. Voter ID is unAmerican. It makes a person like myself have to prove that I can vote. And that just flies in the face of the American ideal. It won't solve things like ballot box stuffing, or voter intimidation; it's just another version of intimidation that is designed to be so late in the election that most won't make the deadline.

It's cheating.

Which American ideal is that? Naive blind trust?

 

[Porchev]

That question can be asked of anybody. Voter ID is unAmerican. It makes a person like myself have to prove that I can vote. And that just flies in the face of the American ideal. It won't solve things like ballot box stuffing, or voter intimidation; it's just another version of intimidation that is designed to be so late in the election that most won't make the deadline.

It's cheating.

Since when is increasing integrity, reducing fraud, and improving accountability un-American?

 

[Surtr]

I think for anyone to be allowed to vote, they need to have a state or federal issued photo ID of some sort. And for people too poor or too stupid to be able to get one on their own, they should be allowed to receive a state ID for free. That is what they do in Georgia. It is sort of like when someone gets arrested, if they can't afford an attorney, an attorney will be appointed to them at public expense.

I can agree with that.

 

[Surtr]

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. If someone has to pay for an item required to vote, then there is no difference between that an a poll tax.

Christ, I can't even believe we're having this debate. What year is it again? 1950?

A poll tax, as I've already stated, is a fee charged specifically to vote. Since a state issue ID is required for everything from getting a job, to driving a car, buying certain items, purchasing property, and a lot more, it's not a poll tax. You may as well be saying that the cost of fuel you need to drive there is a poll tax. This is 2012, where voter fraud is the same as it ever was.

 

[Surtr]

We're not a democracy. We're a plutocracy

We're a democratic republic.

 

[Luna Tick]

We're a democratic republic.

We're supposedly a democratic republic. However, we allow unlimited corporate bribery of politicians. That improperly usurps power away from the people and into the hands of megarich corporations. That makes us a plutocracy.

A poll tax, as I've already stated, is a fee charged specifically to vote. Since a state issue ID is required for everything from getting a job, to driving a car, buying certain items, purchasing property, and a lot more, it's not a poll tax. You may as well be saying that the cost of fuel you need to drive there is a poll tax. This is 2012, where voter fraud is the same as it ever was.

The same as it ever was, meaning nearly nonexistent. We've had more shark attacks than voter fraud. I suggest we start a campaign to end shark attacks.

The right should just admit they don't want people voting who likely will vote against them. That means blacks, Hispanics, homeless ... well one person here admitted he didn't want the homeless voting.

A person doesn't necessarily need a car to vote. He might walk or ride a bike to the polling place. The ID is required.

 

[Sarcogito]

It's called a military ID card. all you have to do is sign your name and they give it to you for FREE!!!!!!!!!!

Hell, they even pay you to get one.

 

[Wiseone]

we need an ID to vote, buy a gun, go to the airport, buy a car, get a loan etc etc.

some folks get up in arms about this, so I suggest the following.

ALL AMERICAN citizens will be issued a State-sponsored ID.

It will have a current photo, and list your name, address, height, weight, eye color, hair color, country of birth. It will have a standard design with some variation for each state to be artistic & original.

It will be FREE. It will be paid for by the state or the Feds.

This way, no one can complain about a fee keeping them from voting, owning a gun, getting a fishing/hunting permit, getting a loan, cashing a check, etc etc.

I don't know if this has been said in 12 pages, but it won't be free. Nothing the government provides is "free" because its paid for by our taxes and by our burrowing which one day sooner or later is going to be paid back(with interest) by our taxes. And any ID card system is more than just issuing cards, you need an agency or a department within one to be created or expanded to manage not only the initial issue but also maintain a basic record on everyone who has one, issue new ones, replace lost/damaged ones, etc etc. Think the DMV on a national scale and you'll get an idea of what I'd picture this looking like.

 

[Surtr]

We're supposedly a democratic republic. However, we allow unlimited corporate bribery of politicians. That improperly usurps power away from the people and into the hands of megarich corporations. That makes us a plutocracy.

The power was never with the People, as it was never intended to be. It's why we're a republic, and not a democracy.

The same as it ever was, meaning nearly nonexistent.

I'm sure you have proof that voter fraud doesn't happen.

The right should just admit they don't want people voting who likely will vote against them. That means blacks, Hispanics, homeless ... well one person here admitted he didn't want the homeless voting.

I'm not a republican.

A person doesn't necessarily need a car to vote. He might walk or ride a bike to the polling place. The ID is required.

And those shoes and bikes cost money. Those items are surely a poll tax.

 

[Surtr]

That very same, valid, state issued, photo ID is required to buy alcohol, tobacco, firearms, ammunition and prescription drugs. If those "rights" are not free then why should voting as many times as you wish and as whoever you simply say that you are be "free"? If the person is not identifiable, except by their own word, then how is their age, citizenship status, felony status or legal residency to be verified?

It can't be verified without presentation of proper identification, and that's the entire point. Voting is a right in that nobody can deny people's ability to vote based upon gender, race, color, or previous condition of servitude. Also, the US Supreme Court case Alexander v Mineta determined that the right to vote exists only for those who are qualified to vote. So, how to you tell who is qualified to vote? You check their ID.

 

[Luna Tick]

The power was never with the People, as it was never intended to be. It's why we're a republic, and not a democracy.

"... government of the people for the people and by the people ..." Nope, sure sounds like no one ever intended the people to rule. People who say we're a republic, not a democracy, are splitting hairs. We are supposed to be a democratic republic. We vote both for representation and directly for laws. We elect people to represent us and we also vote for ballot initiatives. That gives us both characteristics of a republic and a democracy.

I'm sure you have proof that voter fraud doesn't happen.

I didn't say it doesn't happen. I said it was rare. Here you go. From 2008 to 2011 there were 49 cases of voter fraud in Florida versus 72 shark attacks. Quick, if those 49 cases are that important, then the shark attacks are even more so. Better start a huge effort to stop those shark attacks.

PolitiFact Florida | Are shark attacks more common than voter fraud in Florida?

And those shoes and bikes cost money. Those items are surely a poll tax.

Give it up. That's a ridiculous comparison.

 

[Surtr]

"... government of the people for the people and by the people ..." Nope, sure sounds like no one ever intended the people to rule. People who say we're a republic, not a democracy, are splitting hairs. We are supposed to be a democratic republic. We vote both for representation and directly for laws. We elect people to represent us and we also vote for ballot initiatives. That gives us both characteristics of a republic and a democracy.

The republic was chosen because direct democracy is a known failure. It's why voting is structured the way it is, why we have the electoral college, and why we don't vote for laws. You may vote for propositions and ordinances, but that's about it.

Give it up. That's a ridiculous comparison.

Just as ridiculous as comparing requiring a photo ID to a poll tax.

 

[Luna Tick]

The republic was chosen because direct democracy is a known failure. It's why voting is structured the way it is, why we have the electoral college, and why we don't vote for laws. You may vote for propositions and ordinances, but that's about it.

You admit we vote directly on some laws. That's direct rule by the people; that's democracy. We're meant to be a democratic republic, in other words, a hybrid system of both a republic and democracy.

Just as ridiculous as comparing requiring a photo ID to a poll tax.

I've shown the ID requirement will indeed prevent people from voting. That's the intent, just like the poll taxes of the Reconstruction era that stopped free blacks from voting. That makes it not ridiculous at all. Any time any American is prevented from rightfully voting, that's no laughing matter.

 

[Surtr]

You admit we vote directly on some laws. That's direct rule by the people; that's democracy. We're meant to be a democratic republic, in other words, a hybrid system of both a republic and democracy.

Local ordinances and propositions are local, and not federal, which was the point. Your senator has a say on federal laws. Not you directly. We're democratic only in the way that we elect our representatives.

I've shown the ID requirement will indeed prevent people from voting. That's the intent, just like the poll taxes of the Reconstruction era that stopped free blacks from voting. That makes it not ridiculous at all. Any time any American is prevented from rightfully voting, that's no laughing matter.

The only people requiring an ID prevents from voting are the ones who are too irresponsible to make sure they have a valid ID, which is a simple task. I just renewed my CA drivers license, which expired in 2009 online just to verify this fact. I haven't lived in California in 7 years, yet thanks to simple technology anyone can use, whether they personally own a computer or not, I'll be getting a new ID sent to my fathers address in an estimated 5-6 weeks. There is absolutely no excuse to not have a valid form of identification by November 6th.

 

[Phys251]

The 2nd amendment is EQUALLY clear that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". The state of Texas included making the ID FREE, in its voting ID law, for those that can not afford $20 (for six years). Nobody is asking for free guns, I paid $329.00 plus 8.25% sales tax for my pistol, purchased legally from a FFL dealer in TX, after an NCIC background check AND presenting a valid, state issued, photo ID, yet I am now asked to pay $240 (for five years) for "special" Texas state permission to carry (bear) that LEGALLY OWNED personal property, that is supposed to be without infrngement. Now which right is being denied MORE?

It IS NOT a poll tax to require voter identification, including PROOF of citizenship, age and residence. That is simply common sense to KNOW that person is allowed to vote in that district/state. It IS an infringement to require taking a class, passing a test and paying a large (non-refundable) fee to simply APPLY FOR a CCW permit. The ID cost is NOT for the application, or limitted only to the right to vote, if you are denied that ID by the state then you owe ZERO, unlike the CCW Permit which all ($240) must be paid for IN ADVANCE of the application, if the state says no, you lose all that time, effort and money. That is state mandated GAMBLING to try to simply keep a constitutional right, and there is no "open carry" option in Texas (for a handgun), you must pay, in advance to beg for state permission to exercise your 2nd amendment rights.

Those are two separate issues. Whether gun permits should have a fee, we can explore that.

Even if the ID is free, if getting it and getting any other required document is not free, then it costs money to gain the right to vote. And that's a poll tax, period.

 

[Phys251]

We are not a democracy, we are a Republic. Universal suffrage is not inherent to a Republic, and indeed I have often wondered if simply "giving" people franchise, instead of requiring they "earn" it through service to the nation somewhow, isn't a bad idea.

Excuse me while I pick my jaw up off the floor after reading this incredibly disturbing comment.

I love how the Far Right claims to be all about liberty, yet in practice, they seem to have no problem denying it to people they don't like.

 

[radcen]

Even if the ID is free, if getting it and getting any other required document is not free, then it costs money to gain the right to vote. And that's a poll tax, period.

The cost of obtaining a birth certificate to get an ID is a poll tax?

If so, then... per your unqualified blanket statement... so is every other cost in obtaining an ID. The cost of the stamp to mail away for the BC. The cost of the envelope. The cost of the amount of ink drained from your pen while writing the note and/or check to obtain the BC. The electricity used to power the light so you could see to write the check. The gas to drive to the post office to mail the check... not to mention the cost of gas to drive to the polling station to actually vote.

It's no less absurd than your blanket statement.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Those are two separate issues. Whether gun permits should have a fee, we can explore that.

Even if the ID is free, if getting it and getting any other required document is not free, then it costs money to gain the right to vote. And that's a poll tax, period.

Slow down there Skippy, the SAME classic, state issued, photo ID is NOT only required to vote it is NOW required to buy a gun too, so it is NOT a separate issue. I heard no cry, from YOU, that the right to buying guns or ammo was "infringed" by requiring this ID. This same ID is required to buy alcohol, tobacco, guns, hunting/fishing licenses, ammo and prescription drugs, to cash a lottery ticket (over $600) and for many, many other things (including getting a job or applying for public assistance). Not a peep over these MANY laws that all required this "discriminatory burden" was raised in ANY state, yet suddenly when a red state wants ITS voting ID laws (31 states now have them) then, AND ONLY THEN, is it a constitutional crisis. I can see through these alligator tears, as you have but ONE concern and that is keeping UNIDENTIFIED voters on the rolls in hopes that they vote "correctly" based on their race, ethnicity or income level. You have no REAL concerns over the "rights" of these VERY SAME people to engage in ANY other activity requiring that SAME state issued, photo ID, just NOW you choose to raise a stink if they POSSIBLY now may not vote "correctly". You simply want their political support and never even PRETENDED to care about the MANY other things that not having this ID, has allegedly denied them. Hypocrisy? Hmm...

 

[rathi]

Requiring an ID that you have to pay for in order to vote is a poll tax. That is why every state that has voter ID laws has some system to provide the needed credentials without paying.

Frankly, I am unhappy to see that plenty of people still think its okay to deliberately disenfranchise voters if you don't like them. The barriers to vote should be the absolute minimum limited only by practicality and security. Requiring ID to vote isn't inherently unreasonable, but only if every reasonable step is taken to maximize accessibility for any kind of required documents.