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Free govt.-issued ID to all Americans?

Free govt.-issued ID to all Americans?

  • Great idea!!!!

    Votes: 6 27.3%
  • Horrible idea!!!

    Votes: 3 13.6%
  • I think you're on the right track, but there are some problems.

    Votes: 10 45.5%
  • We don't need no stinkin' badges!!!!

    Votes: 3 13.6%

  • Total voters
    22

Thunder

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we need an ID to vote, buy a gun, go to the airport, buy a car, get a loan etc etc.

some folks get up in arms about this, so I suggest the following.

ALL AMERICAN citizens will be issued a State-sponsored ID.

It will have a current photo, and list your name, address, height, weight, eye color, hair color, country of birth. It will have a standard design with some variation for each state to be artistic & original.

It will be FREE. It will be paid for by the state or the Feds.

This way, no one can complain about a fee keeping them from voting, owning a gun, getting a fishing/hunting permit, getting a loan, cashing a check, etc etc.
 
The one problem I see with national ID cards is verifiability.

When you issue court documents, for example, they always have watermarks or some sort of custom artwork on them to represent the culture of where they're from.

That artwork shows sophistication, and it is through sophistication that citizens know that something is reliable and authentic.

For a country as big as ours, having national IDs seems very distant. If we lived in a culture with national pastimes (I guess baseball counts, but that's dying, and what else?), then, it would give us something to organically identify with as reliable.

If you want another good example of arbitrary artwork, look at American money. It makes hardly any sense at all besides the numbers and political figures printed on it. There's no "current" behind its currency.
 
we need an ID to vote, buy a gun, go to the airport, buy a car, get a loan etc etc.

some folks get up in arms about this, so I suggest the following.

ALL AMERICAN citizens will be issued a State-sponsored ID.

It will have a current photo, and list your name, address, height, weight, eye color, hair color, country of birth. It will have a standard design with some variation for each state to be artistic & original.

It will be FREE. It will be paid for by the state or the Feds.

This way, no one can complain about a fee keeping them from voting, owning a gun, getting a fishing/hunting permit, getting a loan, cashing a check, etc etc.

I think the basic idea is sound, but your version sounds like it places too little value on the bearer's privacy. Why does anyone to whom such an identification is presented need to know whether the bearer was born in another country, or that person's weight? Weight, in particular, can vary a great deal for one individual. If an individual gains or loses a large amount of weight, the information on his ID would no longer be correct.

I think such an ID should bear only the barest information needed to verify that the person presenting it is the person to whom it belongs. A photograph, a name, and a thumb print would do, along with a simple code to indicate whether the bearer is under 18, between 18 and 21, or over 21 years of age, so that it could be used to verify eligibility for any age-related transactions. Perhaps there could be a central database in which additional data are stored, and the ID could have a bar code to identify the correct record in that database. In order to obtain the additional data, one would have to access that database online, giving the content of the bar code, and some sort of proof that one has a legitimate need for and authority to access those particular data.
 
while there would be some uniformity for security & safety reasons, there could of course also be areas where state-desired artwork could be added.

there would of course also be magnetic strip listing all of the info on the card, and a fancy hologram to ensure authenticity.

the point is, this card would be used to authorize being able to vote, buy a gun, buy a car, get a loan, GET A JOB (most important).

such an ID would help with many of our problems & political squabbles.

as far as privacy, folks could request minimal data on the front and the rest held on the magnetic strip, or on a data chip on the card.

as far as folks who simply dont want to have an ID to vote, buy a gun, cash a check, get a loan, etc etc....well.....perhaps we can work something out.
 
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while there would be some uniformity for security & safety reasons, there could of course also be areas where state-desired artwork could be added.

there would of course also be magnetic strip listing all of the info on the card, and a fancy hologram to ensure authenticity.

the point is, this card would be used to authorize being able to vote, buy a gun, buy a car, get a loan, GET A JOB (most important).

such an ID would help with many of our problems & political squabbles.

If I didn't know better, I'd call you a big business conservative.

The value of said artwork should relate to the craftsmanship of how people work. Merely getting a job and buying stuff objectifies people into being tools.

Do you have any suggestions for what sort of artwork would get printed on a national ID?
 
...
Do you have any suggestions for what sort of artwork would get printed on a national ID?

except for the barcode, the data on the front, the hologram & possible data chip, the entire background could be designed by each state.

all that REALLY needs to be uniform, is the type of data provided, the magnetic strip, the hologram, and the arrangemant of the data on the front, and legal language on the back, I guess.

this isn't really that hard to do. if there's an honest will there's a way.
 
we need an ID to vote, buy a gun, go to the airport, buy a car, get a loan etc etc.

some folks get up in arms about this, so I suggest the following.

ALL AMERICAN citizens will be issued a State-sponsored ID.

It will have a current photo, and list your name, address, height, weight, eye color, hair color, country of birth. It will have a standard design with some variation for each state to be artistic & original.

It will be FREE. It will be paid for by the state or the Feds.

This way, no one can complain about a fee keeping them from voting, owning a gun, getting a fishing/hunting permit, getting a loan, cashing a check, etc etc.
I would prefer that it be state-issued, rather than federal, but otherwise I'd be fine with making them free. And standardized enough that they could be read in other states.

I don't see the need for country of birth, though. They should only be issued to citizens (and legal immigrants, and marked as such), so at that point country of birth is moot.
 
I would prefer that it be state-issued, rather than federal, but otherwise I'd be fine with making them free. And standardized enough that they could be read in other states.

I don't see the need for country of birth, though. They should only be issued to citizens (and legal immigrants, and marked as such), so at that point country of birth is moot.

as I said, this would make voter-fraud that more difficult, and make it easier to verify the worker status of prospective-employees.
 
except for the barcode, the data on the front, the hologram & possible data chip, the entire background could be designed by each state.

all that REALLY needs to be uniform, is the type of data provided, the magnetic strip, the hologram, and the arrangemant of the data on the front, and legal language on the back, I guess.

this isn't really that hard to do. if there's an honest will there's a way.

If the background is designed by each state, what's the problem with using driving licenses like we do already?

Your proposal seems redundant, especially since people need driving licenses to get around independently along public infrastructure.

Besides, if it isn't hard to do, then you should be able to come up with examples. Heck, this has to be instinctual so everyone in the country can appreciate it.
 
If the background is designed by each state, what's the problem with using driving licenses like we do already?....

many people don't have drivers licenses.

many states allow illegal aliens to have a drivers license.
 
we need an ID to vote, buy a gun, go to the airport, buy a car, get a loan etc etc.

some folks get up in arms about this, so I suggest the following.

ALL AMERICAN citizens will be issued a State-sponsored ID.

It will have a current photo, and list your name, address, height, weight, eye color, hair color, country of birth. It will have a standard design with some variation for each state to be artistic & original.

It will be FREE. It will be paid for by the state or the Feds.

This way, no one can complain about a fee keeping them from voting, owning a gun, getting a fishing/hunting permit, getting a loan, cashing a check, etc etc.

Homeland security's wet dream.

nope!
 
The one problem I see with national ID cards is verifiability.

When you issue court documents, for example, they always have watermarks or some sort of custom artwork on them to represent the culture of where they're from.

That artwork shows sophistication, and it is through sophistication that citizens know that something is reliable and authentic.

For a country as big as ours, having national IDs seems very distant. If we lived in a culture with national pastimes (I guess baseball counts, but that's dying, and what else?), then, it would give us something to organically identify with as reliable.

If you want another good example of arbitrary artwork, look at American money. It makes hardly any sense at all besides the numbers and political figures printed on it. There's no "current" behind its currency.

Admirable idea but there are some problems to consider. Information systems don't just spring up, especially when you talking about 330 million people.

If you go through the states, the DMV is the most logical. This is currently in process. In 2005 the Real Id act was passed. It took til 2008 for the DHS to come up with final rules because the many concerns, including the nuts and bolts, privacy, technology and personnel training, that must be addressed in creating a national identification data base. It was determined after surveying states the the cost to them would be $11 billion dollars. See page three because it's going to eat space here to quote it.

http://www.ncsl.org/print/statefed/R...NAL_Sept19.pdf

That is a very comprehensive report on this this topic and even though, it was written in 2006, the substance of it is still pertinent.

There is a real debate to be had over civil liberties and privacy concerns as well.

http://tcf.org/publications/pdfs/pb2...al_ID_Card.pdf
http://epic.org/privacy/id_cards/epic_realid_0508.pdf

There are two papers covering the historical and contemporary arguments against a national ID card and the implementation of the Real ID law.

Civil liberty advocates like the ACLU, worry that it could be abused by the government. From the EPIC report:
For example, a Detroit Free Press investigation revealed that ninety Michigan police officers, dispatchers, federal agents, and security guards abused the police database over the past five years to stalk women, threaten motorists, and settle scores.
Privacy of electronic records from companies and individuals to mine and sell or distribute personal information. This is a real problem now. Under the Real ID act (from the EPIC report)

The Department of Homeland Security rejected encryption in the final rule because of “the complexities and costs of implementing an encryption infrastructure.” We anticipated this and detailed a privacy-protective
alternative to encryption, yet the agency did not take this path either. We said:

We suggest that no personal data be placed on the machine readable zone. Instead, place a new identifier that is unused elsewhere (i.e., not the driver’s license number or Social Security Number). This unique identifier will “point” to the records in the national database. Access to the database can be controlled by password and encryption security, because it is easier to regulate public keys in this scenario. Also, the State should ensure that a new unique identifier is created each time the machine readable zone is renewed or reissued, in order to make the identifier less useful as an everyday ID number – people would not be forever linked to this identifier. This approach would improve data security and privacy.

Instead of accepting this simple, privacy-protective suggestion, the Department of Homeland Security chose to require that a great deal of personal data be stored on the 2D barcode.
This report is from 2008, so under Janet Napolitano under the last three and a half years, there may have been some changes, I can't find a report on it, but it's enough to raise a red flag that this was a problem in 2008. It should be mentioned that Secretary Napolitano has sought to repeal the Real ID act.
Homeland Security chief seeks to repeal Real ID Act - CNN

Then the security of the data base itself is problematical. We hear several times a year how credit card and governmental agencies have their records hacked and made public. It also must be made accessible to state agencies, so the sheer number of people who could get into it, could be unmanageable.
I've only touched on a few major points, there are many more contained in my links. A creation of a national ID card is much more complex than one might think and rife with practical as well as political and sociological concerns and issues.

*To anyone who thinks they recognize this post, yes you do. ;)
 
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Gina, that's not exactly what I'm talking about. I don't deny that the idea is technologically feasible.

The point is whether or not it's organically feasible. Is it possible to create an ID card which people can relate with?

If it's not, then the premise of a national ID card is anti-social. You need a thematic narrative that people care about. Otherwise, people are just cogs in a machine, intimidated into compliance for the sake of pragmatic efficiency.

If there's one ideology that needs to be purged from government, it's pragmatism. What's practical to some is not automatically practical to all. It's the beginning of mob justice and the end of freedom of assembly.
 
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Gina, that's not exactly what I'm talking about. I don't deny that the idea is technologically feasible.

The point is whether or not it's organically feasible. Is it possible to create an ID card which people can relate with?

If it's not, then the premise of a national ID card is anti-social. You need a thematic narrative that people care about. Otherwise, people are just cogs in a machine, intimidated into compliance for the sake of pragmatic efficiency.

If there's one ideology that needs to be purged from government, it's pragmatism. What's practical to some is not automatically practical to all. It's the beginning of mob justice and the end of freedom of assembly.

It's possible to create artwork for the card. That generally would not be a problem, even though one can sense some amount of discussion about the design, as each state has radically different ID design preferences. Personally, I think you are feeling too much for the aesthetics of the card and not enough regarding the cost of the program, the use of bureaucracy, the security of the product and the individuals so included in the database, the likely cost of the cards themselves (saying that the cards will be free in this theoretical universe is hardly realistic to me, Thunder, sorry), and so forth.
 
The cost of the program is connected to the art printed on the card.

Culture inspires economy. Demand creates supply. Imagination creates commodities.

"Feeling" isn't the right word either. Intuiting is more accurate if that helps you understand.
 
we need an ID to vote, buy a gun, go to the airport, buy a car, get a loan etc etc.

some folks get up in arms about this, so I suggest the following.

ALL AMERICAN citizens will be issued a State-sponsored ID.

It will have a current photo, and list your name, address, height, weight, eye color, hair color, country of birth. It will have a standard design with some variation for each state to be artistic & original.

It will be FREE. It will be paid for by the state or the Feds.

This way, no one can complain about a fee keeping them from voting, owning a gun, getting a fishing/hunting permit, getting a loan, cashing a check, etc etc.

You have to pay for a gun permit don't you?
 
You have to pay for a gun permit don't you?

Only because government is corrupt. You already have, as an American, the right to keep and bear arms. That right belong to you and to every free American. Nobody has the legitimate authority to make you pay for what is already rightfully yours to begin with.
 
we need an ID to vote, buy a gun, go to the airport, buy a car, get a loan etc etc.

some folks get up in arms about this, so I suggest the following.

ALL AMERICAN citizens will be issued a State-sponsored ID.

It will have a current photo, and list your name, address, height, weight, eye color, hair color, country of birth. It will have a standard design with some variation for each state to be artistic & original.

It will be FREE. It will be paid for by the state or the Feds.

This way, no one can complain about a fee keeping them from voting, owning a gun, getting a fishing/hunting permit, getting a loan, cashing a check, etc etc.

Bam. Perfecto. This means no more poll tax. And while we're at it, retrieval of any document needed to get an ID should be free, once per three months.
 
The “free” part goes a long way to ensuring it doesn’t amount to a poll tax. But the ID issuing facilities must also be open for an extended enough period of time that people don’t have to miss work in order to get them.

As for the “address” requirement, how do you propose handling the homeless citizens? They are still entitled to vote.
 
Given our government's proclivity for tracking our every move, of course these cards would have chips in them for that purpose. We should not be forced to carry them.
 
We already have ALL that you say, with perhaps the omission of birth place and finger prints, but that is not needed since CITIZENSHIP is the issue. These wonderous documents are called STATE driver's licences or ID cards, they now cost about $20 for six years (in Texas), but I am sure that states can afford to issue and update IDs (but still charge for DLs) for "free" without bankrupting the state. They are, dispite claims to the contrary, possesed by nearly all adults in the U.S. and it would take little to make them "free". The need for a "national" or "uniform" ID does not exist, as tickets and arrests are a booming business for those traveling out of state now. In fact, the more distinct they are, the less likely that those "out of place" will be able to buy guns, ammo, be released on cheap bail or vote outside of their state of residence. Address changes are the most frequent need for "updates" and that can be done for IDs (not DLs) without too much cost to the taxpayers.
 
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The “free” part goes a long way to ensuring it doesn’t amount to a poll tax. But the ID issuing facilities must also be open for an extended enough period of time that people don’t have to miss work in order to get them.

As for the “address” requirement, how do you propose handling the homeless citizens? They are still entitled to vote.

Use the county/city jail as their address, as a default. ;-)
 
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