For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You?

[Dr_Patrick]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

See you keep telling me that it's an assumption instead of just asking why I support that argument.

You keep labeling me as "arrogant" instead of hearing my side.

You don't let me speak, and I care less about "gay rights" as a result.

How is it not an assumption? You've yet to show data backing up your claims.

I labeled your assumption as arrogant because it is. You have not shown proof of your claims which leads me to believe that your own experience is your proof. I find that arrogant.

Are you serious? How am I not letting you speak? I could care less how you feel about gay rights. I know that I'm not going to change your mind on anything and I don't expect to. I thought we were just having a discussion about this and I was hoping you could clarify your reasons so that I could understand them better.

 

[Jerry]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

If you think you wouldn't have gotten married if you didn't shack up, then you got married for the wrong reasons.

We sure did.

That has nothing to do with shacking up. On one hand you say that shacking up means that there is no promise but then you imply it forced you to marry?

You are mixing up what I said as an objective statement on a population and what I said as subjective personal experience.

I am not using myself as an example. It appears you are, though.

Our conversation on my personal experiences are purely tangical, for curiosity purposes only, and do not constitute any part of my argument on this thread at all, in any way.

At the end of the day, you can't say that shacking up was the cause. It certainly wasn't the grounds you used when you filed for divorce.

It was very contributory.

I hope you didn't have the same step-parents. :lol

We both came from step-parent homes. Typically, step-parents are harsh on non-biological children, which was our experience. Add to that legal drug abuse and *poof* one more divorce in the making.

 

[Jerry]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

How is it not an assumption? You've yet to show data backing up your claims.

Because I was shut down before I could.

Why would I spend the time to source claims when it was already made clear that those claims would be considered "irrelevant" even if I could prove them true?

 

[Dr_Patrick]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Because I was shut down before I could.

How were you shut down? We are just having a discussion here.

Why would I spend the time to source claims when it was already made clear that those claims would be considered "irrelevant" even if I could prove them true?

So you won't post the source of your claims because you think that they will be considered irrelevant. So what's the point of even bringing it up if you think they will be shot down? To me it means that they must be pretty irrelevant if even you perceive them that way.

 

[jallman]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

How were you shut down? We are just having a discussion here.



So you won't post the source of your claims because you think that they will be considered irrelevant. So what's the point of even bringing it up if you think they will be shot down? To me it means that they must be pretty irrelevant if even you perceive them that way.

"I was shot down" is this weeks version of "that's trolling" or, my personal favorite, "I am above this conversation and don't have to prove my points".

It's just a gimick to avoid honest discussion and those gimicks, I'll wager, are what destroys a marriage quicker than "shacking up".

 

[Tucker Case]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

I reiterate from our last conversation on this issue: If there were a statistically significant demographic of brothers and sisters adopting children out of the system, I would support incest. That's how far I would take it.

http://www.adoptioninstitute.org/whowe/Lesbian and Gay Adoption Report_final.doc

It's a link to a word file, but here's the conclusion form the study:

The study’s findings offer insights into a controversial arena of adoption, as well as into an important issue in the gay and lesbian community. For society, the bottom line is clear: Homosexuals are becoming parents in growing numbers, and adoption agencies are fueling the trend. For homosexuals wishing to become parents, the results paint a more encouraging picture than is often portrayed or perceived by many (if not most) Americans. Although stereotypes and misconceptions still perpetuate policy and practice, from a child-centered perspective, the willingness of adoption agencies to accept gay and lesbian adults as parents means more and more waiting children are moving into permanent, loving families.

The underlined portion is pretty clear, there is a belief that adoption is less posible than it really is for homosexuals.

And in some states it's downright illegal for gay people to adopt. For example, Gay adoption is expressly prohibitted in Florida and it is essentially prohibitted in Utah (only married couples can adopt in Utah, but the consitutional ammendment banning gay marriages prevents gay couples from adopting).

I don't have the percentages of homosexuals adopting, but the study found that "a steadily escalating number of homosexuals are becoming adoptive parents" and that "In general, the study’s results confirm that adoptions by lesbians and gays are occurring regularly and in notable numbers."

 

[Jerry]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

How were you shut down? We are just having a discussion here.

Shot down in the discussion, here:

How many gay-couples, who would get married today if they could, are already living together?

That is totally irrelevant to the issue.

If only one couple wants to do so, there is an obligation by the state to make marriage equally accessible.

Demanding that I source an irrelivent point...what's the point?

Is it an assumption on my part? No, but what do you care anyway, it's irrelivent, remember?

If you conced that the point is relivent, then I would need to source it, othehrwise it has nothing to do with the price of rice in China.

So you won't post the source of your claims because you think that they will be considered irrelevant. So what's the point of even bringing it up if you think they will be shot down? To me it means that they must be pretty irrelevant if even you perceive them that way.

You didn't answer my question.

 

[Dr_Patrick]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Shot down in the discussion, here:



Demanding that I source an irrelivent point...what's the point?

Is it an assumption on my part? No, but what do you care anyway, it's irrelivent, remember?

If you conced that the point is relivent, then I would need to source it, othehrwise it has nothing to do with the price of rice in China.



You didn't answer my question.

If it was truly a relevant point you would have posted it. That says to me that you also find it irrelevant.

 

[Jerry]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

If it was truly a relevant point you would have posted it. That says to me that you also find it irrelevant.

If YOU don't find it relevant then there's no point in my trying to argue it to you.

There's loads of pro-gm arguments I tell folks not to waste their time on with me, so if this one is an argument you don't care about, that's fine, just let me know either way.

 

[Dr_Patrick]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

If YOU don't find it relevant then there's no point in my trying to argue it to you.

There's loads of pro-gm arguments I tell folks not to waste their time on with me, so if this one is an argument you don't care about, that's fine, just let me know either way.

You're right, I don't care so I won't continue the discussion. I was only asking you to clarify your position and you are unwilling to because you think it will be perceived as irrelevant and that's fine. End of story.

 

[Captain America]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

I was shut down before I could make that argument.

It's irrelevant, remember?

I'm open to support, actively supporting and fighting for gay-marriage.

The typical gay-marriage I would fight for resembles the typical hetero-marriage I would fight for.

Living together before marriage statistically increases the rate of that marriage's failure. Therefore, since I speak out and say hetero's shouldn't do it, I'm speaking out and saying gays shouldn't do it either.

I don't support heteros who already live together to get married so why should I support gays who already live together to get married? Because gays will have the same rate of divorce? That's what I'm trying to avoid.

Jerry, I do think you're on to something here. I have no evidence but it is my thinking that couples who have no moral qualms about living together, out of wedlock, most likely would not value the "for better or for worse" committment required to fulfill a lifelong marital arrangement.

It makes sense.

 

[Thorgasm]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Jerry, I do think you're on to something here. I have no evidence but it is my thinking that couples who have no moral qualms about living together, out of wedlock, most likely would not value the "for better or for worse" committment required to fulfill a lifelong marital arrangement.

It makes sense.

Yeah, but it doesn't show causation. If you did a graph on couples shacking up and juxtaposed it against women being able to support themselves economically you could probably see some similarities. People used to claim women's liberation was causing a higher divorce rate.

 

[Captain America]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Dammit IT.

Causation? Juxtaposed?

Man, I'm too damn drunk to find my dictionary. Don't you be messin' with this ol' Texas boy.

Don't make me jump thru my screen and open a can o' whup ass on yew! :rofl

 

[Bodi]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

I love a good beer...
CA has some of the best microbreweries anywhere...

it mostly is used that way, though.

... see next

you do without realizing it, every time you assert that gays are being discriminated against by "not being allowed to marry."

You answer how I use it above. It is mostly used that way, but not when I do it. It is not like I make a statement and then sit back and think, "gee, how did that sound and what was the intent of my statement." Nope. I think about what I am going to say PRIOR to saying it and I understand what I am saying, the context that I am putting it inot to as well as the intent of my words. That is just me, I think a lot, or so I have been told... about communication.

if it is gender Discrimination (big d), it should be obvious which gender is being treated like crap and which gender is not, since there are only 2. otherwise it is only gender discrimination (little d).

Big D little d, is there a difference? :rofl
I have never heard that it was ok to discriminate with a little d as long as you weren't using the big D...

your racist mexican analogy doesn't work, because it involves more than two races. there are only two genders.

And I know people that are racists towards EVERY SINGLE RACE other than their own...
so the analogy works just fine when modified in that way...

I wish you had come up with a better response to my cigarette analogy. I thought it was pretty brilliant. please read it again and either give me some credit or tear it to shreds.

Ok... next post if I can find your comment.

'us' v. 'them' seems to be human nature, yes. but that is not what bigotry means. "bigot" is another example of a buzzword that has lost all meaning lately.

I guess that, again, I am unique. I grew up around bigots, and I understand them perfectly and I, at least, never toss around words like that lightly...

everyone is denied same sex marriages. similarly, everyone is allowed marriages. some people don't like the terms (please see my "if I were a lesbian" post), and that is not only gays but many many straights as well. HAPPILY, marriage in the U.S. is entirely optional.

for the record, I am referring to state sponsored marriage only, and I am referring to the 47(?) states where same-sex state-sponsored marriage is illegal.

The fact that everyone is allowed to marry, in the man/woman marriage is irrelevant to this issue. I wish that people, and you, would stop saying this as if it holds any bearing whatsoever on the issue at hand, and that is legalizing same sex marriage and if same sex marriage effects you, us, in any way...

 

[Bodi]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

I have. Marriage is between a man and a woman and always has been. The fact you do not find that a logical argument does not mean I or anyone is a bigot. What it means is that this is what I and millions of other Americans define as marriage. You're free to believe what you want and so are we. Of course, you will not accept people with different opinions so you choose to call them bigots because they do not agree with you; hence, the little immature hissy fit you are on.

You call it is a hissy fit because you are getting railed on...
You get dizzy when you get up too fast and, from what I can tell,
About logical arguments as well...

Actually, other than messing with you, I am being very mature about this.
emdash has a differing view and I have no problem with it.
IMO she is attempting to make a logical approach to her position, and that is great.

I don't think that she has done so, yet, and I am sure that she think that I have not proven her incorrect yet either, yet we are continuing to communicate rationally and in a friendly manner.

You though, you sound like a bigot and you offer no logic whatsoever.
Your definition of marriage is one of many, additionally, terms change.
Blacks were consider 3/5's of a person a couple hundreds years ago...
Perhaps you think that law should not have changed either? No?
Why? Why allow some alterations and not others? This is the flaw in your thinking...

Millions of people are bigots, just for your information. Get a clue. Most people aren't, but millions, in the scope of the US population, is not very many.

You have no rational argument, and CC has completely owned your butt displaying your bigotry for all to witness. Really, unless you have something intelligent to add, you should just leave. Seriously. You suck.

 

[Bodi]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

"What in the world are you on"?

Better run... the Billy Goats Gruff are coming. Troll.

 

[Bodi]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Pretty comfy when they have a moderator running interference for them. Talk about a stacked deck. No surprise. This is how moonbats operate.

Who is running interference for me? CC is s punk that has warned me and given me penalty points many times. Seriously.

Yeah, you CC... punk. :twisted:

 

[Bodi]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

I disagree. Your post adds nothing to this thread because it is not about the topic and as usual you have resorted to saying he is a troll when he isn't. I suggest you stick to the topic.

He is the goofy bastard that lives next door... from some Eastern European country.

Or Missouri... not sure.

 

[Bodi]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

You can ban me but you can't ban the truth. You're nothing but self-righteous phonies ...

It might take a few years for that to sink in, but I think that it is gonna sting like hell when it does.
IT2002, will you be around to hold me?

 

[Bodi]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002
My mommie is dead.

That explains your filthy stench.

Wow, and now mocking the death of a persons mother! So Christian!

I am sure that your mother would be so proud of you... :roll:

Hey, if there was ever a closet homosexual, it the one one fighting it the most.
That would be... umm... why you and Southern Man! That's who! :rofl

 

[Bodi]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Nope. I'm not trying to get banned. I'm speaking the truth about you and your pals. You're weak little punks with a bully punk moderator who runs interference for you. If I get banned, I get banned. Speaking the truth is more important to me than kissing your asses and allowing this crap to go on.

You aren't speaking the truth...
I am not snotty, and when I am I use a tissue.
I am not seak. 6'2" 190lbs and extremely athletic...

Well, we could just go on and on about how untruthful you are.

Hell, I didn't even report you and your trollish and "don't be a jerk" rule violating behavior. 'Cause I aint no hypocrite like you is, my man!

 

[Bodi]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Moderator's Warning:

Just thought I'd pop in and say "hi" and wish walleye a good time on his two week vacation. Now, there seem to be a few, here that would still like to discuss the topic. I hope the next time I log on, I see that. If not, I'll leave the thread to the Basement. And, any intentional act to further taint this thread, will be met with a similar fate as to what happened to walleye.

Damn! I just got to this thread. Didn't know that he was gone.
Don't flush it on my account... just laugh and move on people...
Let's discuss this, because I want to hear what emdash hs to say still!

 

[Bodi]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

A perfectly logical position.



Sorry Arcana, Captain America just ruled out your entire support for gay-marriage.

I assume that is a joke? Problem is, I don't get it...

 

[Bodi]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Captain America just said that gay marriage only affects those who are getting married. Arcana said gay marriage affects her because those she loves are not being fairly treated.

What Captain America said cannot be true if what arcana said is true and vice versa.

Got it now Jerry... thanks Tucker. A beacon of light! :shock:

 

[Bodi]

Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Oh there is a broad range of evidence so, no, we aren't even. I'm still one up on you.

FACT: Divorce rate in the US is 49%.
FACT: Divorce can be obtained for any reason, often simply citing "irreconcilable differences" when no reason can be offered.
FACT: Marriages have and do occur on a whim only to be dissolved within 24 hours as nothing more than a publicity stunt.
FACT: Marriage is used as nothing more than a prize at the end of a reality tv show every season.

Conclusion: Heteros ought to be protecting marriage from the real threat, themselves, rather than going on about homos that haven't done the first thing to undermine the sham that marriage has become at heterosexual hands.

:applaud :applaud :applaud :applaud