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For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You?

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Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Jerry said:
I couldn't agree with you more.

If we as a society want to make marriage a valuable tradition again, then certainly we can't start by supporting a demographic who's main argument is "we will have a 50% divorce rate"...because it's precisely the 50% divorce rate we're trying to get away from.
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Is that the main argument given, though?

I've never really encountered it, but then again I've never really argued against gay marriage.
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Jerry said:
I was shut down before I could make that argument.

It's irrelevant, remember?

I'm open to support, actively supporting and fighting for gay-marriage.

The typical gay-marriage I would fight for resembles the typical hetero-marriage I would fight for.

Living together before marriage statistically increases the rate of that marriage's failure. Therefore, since I speak out and say hetero's shouldn't do it, I'm speaking out and saying gays shouldn't do it either.

I don't support heteros who already live together to get married so why should I support gays who already live together to get married? Because gays will have the same rate of divorce? That's what I'm trying to avoid.
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It's good to know that you don't support my 8 year long hetero marriage. ;)

You are confusing correlation with causation. "Shacking up" before marriage doesn't cause divorce.

Did you "shack up" before you got married?
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

jallman said:
Oh there is a broad range of evidence so, no, we aren't even. I'm still one up on you.

FACT: Divorce rate in the US is 49%.
FACT: Divorce can be obtained for any reason, often simply citing "irreconcilable differences" when no reason can be offered.
FACT: Marriages have and do occur on a whim only to be dissolved within 24 hours as nothing more than a publicity stunt.
FACT: Marriage is used as nothing more than a prize at the end of a reality tv show every season.

Conclusion: Heteros ought to be protecting marriage from the real threat, themselves, rather than going on about homos that haven't done the first thing to undermine the sham that marriage has become at heterosexual hands.
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Again with the hetero -vs- gay angle.

It's Conservative -vs- Liberal.

You're facts represent the Liberal side, while I'm on the Conservative side. I speak out against the "facts" you listed, and I take quite a bit of flame from Liberals when I do, too.

Make gay-marriage into a Conservative issue and you win my support.
 
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Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Jerry said:
Living together before marriage statistically increases the rate of that marriage's failure. Therefore, since I speak out and say hetero's shouldn't do it, I'm speaking out and saying gays shouldn't do it either.

I don't support heteros who already live together to get married so why should I support gays who already live together to get married? Because gays will have the same rate of divorce? That's what I'm trying to avoid.
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Isn't there a huge confound here?

It is possible that gay couple's living together are doing so already in the view that they are married, even if it is not recognized by the state?

Also, since gay marriage is currently unrecogized, in order to live as a married couple, they definitively have to live together prior to being involved in a recognized marriage.

They may have shared personal vows with each otehr that makes them married in their hearts if not the eyes of the law.

This doesn't really exist for hetero couples because they are not prevented form being in state-recognized marriages.
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Jerry said:
Again with the hetero -vs- gay angle.

It's Conservative -vs- Liberal.

You're facts represent the Liberal side, while I'm on the Conservative side. I speak out against the "facts" you listed, and I take quite a bit of flame from Liberals when I do, too.

Make gay-marriage into a Conservative issue and you win my support.
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First of all, I'm not really seeking your support. I don't care whether you support me at all because, just like I don't affect your failed marriage, you don't affect my successful one.

Secondly, this isn't a conservative/liberal issue. That's simply another smoke screen for your penchant for being obtuse and argumentative despite having your ass handed to you repeatedly. What was presented to you was reality...all pure truth that cannot be denied so now you beg and plead to change the parameters of the debate to some construct that you think you might have an advantage in.

Nice try though.
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Tucker Case said:
Isn't there a huge confound here?

It is possible that gay couple's living together are doing so already in the view that they are married, even if it is not recognized by the state?

Also, since gay marriage is currently unrecogized, in order to live as a married couple, they definitively have to live together prior to being involved in a recognized marriage.

They may have shared personal vows with each otehr that makes them married in their hearts if not the eyes of the law.

This doesn't really exist for hetero couples because they are not prevented form being in state-recognized marriages.
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You're speaking my language now.

Show me, you're typical religious conservative gm-objector, how gay couples who live together now are different than hetero couples who do the same and you'll be on the right track.
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

dclxvinoise said:
So that automatically means that it will happen to everyone? That's a pretty big assertion on your part.
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What assertion?

IT asked me a personal question and I answered it dyrectly.

I haven't used myself as an example.
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Jerry said:
What assertion?

IT asked me a personal question and I answered it dyrectly.

I haven't used myself as an example.
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I just don't see what shacking up has to do with the effects of a marriage. I think the success of a marriage is mostly based on the two people involved and how compatible they are with each other over time rather than the circumstances surrounding them.
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

jallman said:
First of all, I'm not really seeking your support. I don't care whether you support me at all because, just like I don't affect your failed marriage, you don't affect my successful one.

Secondly, this isn't a conservative/liberal issue. That's simply another smoke screen for your penchant for being obtuse and argumentative despite having your ass handed to you repeatedly. What was presented to you was reality...all pure truth that cannot be denied so now you beg and plead to change the parameters of the debate to some construct that you think you might have an advantage in.

Nice try though.
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Just when I thought we had gotten away from all the tolls and back on topic.
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Jerry said:
Just when I thought we had gotten away from all the tolls and back on topic.
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You are so completely full of yourself sometimes it is astounding that you can be as full of **** as you are, too. :lol:
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Jerry said:
What assertion?

IT asked me a personal question and I answered it dyrectly.

I haven't used myself as an example.
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You said that your situation gave you credibility, more than once.
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

dclxvinoise said:
I just don't see what shacking up has to do with the effects of a marriage. I think the success of a marriage is mostly based on the two people involved and how compatible they are with each other over time rather than the circumstances surrounding them.
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It has to do with one's point of view and the attitude they bring to the relationship.

Once married, you work out problems and compromise so as to fulfill a promise.

When shacking-up, you're testing the water. You are actively looking for problems to justify freely walking away.

There is no promise with shacking-up, there is no obligation, so there is less effort to work through problems.

Generally speaking, people who live together before they marry do not change their point-of-view from actively seeking out reason to walk away, to placing great effort into compromising and working things out, when they marry. They bring the negative pov into the marriage, and the marriage doesn't survive as a result.
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Jerry said:
You're speaking my language now.

Show me, you're typical religious conservative gm-objector, how gay couples who live together now are different than hetero couples who do the same and you'll be on the right track.
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Unfortunately, I don't have any data to support it, as I've never done the research.

I'll consider that a homework assignment though, and see what I can dig up.

My main point was about a possible confound that means hetero data cannot be applied universally to homosexual partnerships given the fact that there are different circumstances involved between the two relationships regarding marriage at the present time.

In the end, it may relate perfectly, and premarital "shacking up" may be equally damaging for the long-term marriage prospects regardless of the type of couple involved, but it may not. I cannot say either way until I look further into it, and the truth is, nobody can without knowing that the two are inded comparable.

Citing heterosexual divorce rates and applying them to describe homosexual relationships may well be akin to citing chimpanzee hunting behaviors and applying them to describe wombat hunting behaviors.

Until further research is made showing that there is scientific validity in this approach, there can be no definitive statements in either direction.
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Jerry said:
It has to do with one's point of view and the attitude they bring to the relationship.

Once married, you work out problems and compromise so as to fulfill a promise.

When shacking-up, you're testing the water. You are actively looking for problems to justify freely walking away.

There is no promise with shacking-up, there is no obligation, so there is less effort to work through problems.

Generally speaking, people who live together before they marry do not change their point-of-view from actively seeking out reason to walk away, to placing great effort into compromising and working things out, when they marry. They bring the negative pov into the marriage, and the marriage doesn't survive as a result.
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Yes, but that's purely assumption on your part and it sounds like it's based on your own experience. Why do you think that bespeaks of everyone else who shacks up? That seems like a rather arrogant assumption to me.
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Jerry said:
It has to do with one's point of view and the attitude they bring to the relationship.

Once married, you work out problems and compromise so as to fulfill a promise.

When shacking-up, you're testing the water. You are actively looking for problems to justify freely walking away.
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Uh, no. I mean, it might be for some, but that type isn't going to last long in a marriage either. It's different for different people. Like for me and Josh...there just wasn't a point in living apart because we were so content being together that we always were anyway.

There is no promise with shacking-up, there is no obligation, so there is less effort to work through problems.
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Maybe to a less than honorable slag but not to any responsible adult. You have leases, joint ownership, often pets, etc...I don't know what self help book you pulled this from, but it isn't a good one.

Generally speaking, people who live together before they marry do not change their point-of-view from actively seeking out reason to walk away, to placing great effort into compromising and working things out, when they marry. They bring the negative pov into the marriage, and the marriage doesn't survive as a result.
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That's because they are negative people to start with.
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

independent_thinker2002 said:
Are you saying that was what went wrong with your marriage? If you hadn't shacked up you would still be married?
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In my case, if we hadn't shacked-up we may not have gotten married in the first place.

We would've had more objectivity to see that we weren't a match. Perhaps we wouldn't have had to adopt out children, either.

Our divorce wouldn't be included in the national statistic gays use to support their argument. You wouldn't be paying for my kids to be on title19 or food stamps.

Maybe we would’ve gotten married after all. If that were the case, I know in my heart that the relationship would have been much healthier.

But we did shack-up, and a big reason why was our step-parents.....

My father's second marriage was very contributory to my failed marriage...and my sister's running away...so you can understand why I see these issues as conected; marriage/divorce and juvenile crime, etc.
 
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Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

dclxvinoise said:
Yes, but that's purely assumption on your part and it sounds like it's based on your own experience. Why do you think that bespeaks of everyone else who shacks up? That seems like a rather arrogant assumption to me.
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See you keep telling me that it's an assumption instead of just asking why I support that argument.

You keep labeling me as "arrogant" instead of hearing my side.

You don't let me speak, and I care less about "gay rights" as a result.
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Jerry said:
In my case, if we hadn't shacked-up we may not have gotten married in the first place.

We would've had more objectivity to see that we weren't a match. Perhaps we wouldn't have had to adopt out children, either.

Our divorce wouldn't be included in the national statistic gays use to support their argument. You wouldn't be paying for my kids to be on title19 or food stamps.

Maybe we would’ve gotten married after all. If that were the case, I know in my heart that the relationship would have been much healthier.

But we did shack-up, and a big reason why was our step-parents.....
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If you think you wouldn't have gotten married if you didn't shack up, then you got married for the wrong reasons. That has nothing to do with shacking up. On one hand you say that shacking up means that there is no promise but then you imply it forced you to marry?

At the end of the day, you can't say that shacking up was the cause. It certainly wasn't the grounds you used when you filed for divorce.


I hope you didn't have the same step-parents. :lol:
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Jerry said:
See you keep telling me that it's an assumption instead of just asking why I support that argument.

You keep labeling me as "arrogant" instead of hearing my side.

You don't let me speak, and I care less about "gay rights" as a result.
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You aren't going to decide the fate of gay marriage. You are responsible for presenting your argument in its entirety. You are coming across as making arrogant assumptions.

I don't care if you care about gay rights or not because you never really have all along so I'm not inclined to beg you to start doing so now.
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Tucker Case said:
Unfortunately, I don't have any data to support it, as I've never done the research.

I'll consider that a homework assignment though, and see what I can dig up.

My main point was about a possible confound that means hetero data cannot be applied universally to homosexual partnerships given the fact that there are different circumstances involved between the two relationships regarding marriage at the present time.

In the end, it may relate perfectly, and premarital "shacking up" may be equally damaging for the long-term marriage prospects regardless of the type of couple involved, but it may not. I cannot say either way until I look further into it, and the truth is, nobody can without knowing that the two are inded comparable.

Citing heterosexual divorce rates and applying them to describe homosexual relationships may well be akin to citing chimpanzee hunting behaviors and applying them to describe wombat hunting behaviors.

Until further research is made showing that there is scientific validity in this approach, there can be no definitive statements in either direction.
Click to expand...

I reiterate from our last conversation on this issue: If there were a statistically significant demographic of brothers and sisters adopting children out of the system, I would support incest. That's how far I would take it.
 
Re: For Those Opposing Gay Marriage: Answer This One Question: How Does It Affect You

Jerry said:
It has to do with one's point of view and the attitude they bring to the relationship.

Once married, you work out problems and compromise so as to fulfill a promise.

When shacking-up, you're testing the water. You are actively looking for problems to justify freely walking away.

There is no promise with shacking-up, there is no obligation, so there is less effort to work through problems.

Generally speaking, people who live together before they marry do not change their point-of-view from actively seeking out reason to walk away, to placing great effort into compromising and working things out, when they marry. They bring the negative pov into the marriage, and the marriage doesn't survive as a result.
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I have to disagree with you here.

When living together before marriage you would be more prone to find out if the person is right for you to live with for the rest of your life.

The problem (imo) lies with the ease of marriage and divorce in this stage of our societys development.

I can't remember at any other time in my life (or before) where a "trial marriage" was acceptable.

To make matters worse, people (more often women) are able to use children as bargaining tools. Get married, pop out children, get divorced, 18 years of income.
 
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