For all you folks out there...

[Glowpun]

especially the folks who love guns. Are more guns the solution to stop all these massacres of innocent children and other folks? LaPierre and the NRA and the gun industry strongly believe so. What is your thought?

 

[Diogenes]

Nutcase control would be more effective than additional ineffective gun control laws.

 

[MaggieD]

especially the folks who love guns. Are more guns the solution to stop all these massacres of innocent children and other folks? LaPierre and the NRA and the gun industry strongly believe so. What is your thought?

Nothing is going to stop them. Perhaps we can slow them down or make them even more rare than they already are. And we should remember that they are rare. I don't think anyone can answer your question with empirical evidence since relatively few shootings are stopped by good guys with guns. Or, let me add, at least that's what we're led to believe. Newspapers rarely print good news...and when they do? It's rare that it gets picked up much past one's local area.

 

[tessaesque]

The solution is in finding a way to predict unpredictable behavior. Somebody experiencing a psychotic break that compels them to cause harm will find a way to cause harm. Perhaps we decrease the number of those who die by making a knife easier to acquire than a gun....or perhaps we see a rise in McVeigh-like bombings, instead. Perhaps we become so consumed with paranoia that we require strict licensing and tracking for ANY commonly used weapon (knives, swords, crossbows, guns, etc., etc., etc.). But none of that is going to stop somebody who isn't connected with the reality of their actions from performing some unexpected, heinous act. All we'll see is more creative means of causing harm.

As long as we keep doing this stupid "I know you are, but what am I?" back and forth on gun control we'll continue to miss the forest for the trees.

We need to address our culture and find out WHY these people kill. Go to those who are still alive and delve deeply into their psyche and get answers. Then use those answers to create profiles and identify these people before they become compelled to commit these acts. When the FBI was founded they all but invented criminal psychological profiling...and the application of that science has had a significant impact on our ability to track and capture criminals. But we need to figure out how to identify them BEFORE they do bad, get them the help they need to "get right", and prevent them from ever actually harming other people. We can already do it with potential serial killers. There are easily identifiable warning signs for potential serial killer behavior. We can identify the types of people who tend to become rapists. We can identify the types of people who tend to commit terrorist acts.

So we have all this knowledge, and we don't utilize it because we're not sure how to do it constitutionally. So instead of tackling a complicated issue that will benefit most everybody, they'd rather institute draconian bans on weapons that punish law abiding citizens and benefit very few.

 

[clownboy]

No one is suggesting more guns. What is suggested is that we let the good guys carry the ones that already exist because the bad guys sure do.

 

[TurtleDude]

especially the folks who love guns. Are more guns the solution to stop all these massacres of innocent children and other folks? LaPierre and the NRA and the gun industry strongly believe so. What is your thought?

I don't love guns

I love shooting sports and the freedom to own what I want

and restricting my freedoms has absolutely no merit in trying to stop nutcases from committing capital murder.

armed defense against an armed nutcase is the only practical way of limiting the amount of deaths an active shooter will cause

tell us why you support hassling honest gun owners and why?

 

[CalGun]

I don't agree with the NRA position of armed guards. I do believe armed employees of the schools are a good idea. That does not mean "More Guns" as many in the anti gun world want to project. It merely means a well trained and capable person carrying a gun instead of locking it in a box at home. A simple act of congress signed by the president to allow holders of concealed weapons permits to carry on government property would send a message to any nut job - the schools, post offices and other facilities (like the VA) are not gun free and are not free for you to take on as targets without repercussions.

especially the folks who love guns. Are more guns the solution to stop all these massacres of innocent children and other folks? LaPierre and the NRA and the gun industry strongly believe so. What is your thought?

 

[tessaesque]

FWIW, my high school had an armed police officer on site.

Once, he broke up a fight when an expelled student entered during the lunch rush and attacked another student with a metal pipe. He saved the victim's life. If he hadn't had a weapon (he pulled his taser, not his gun...to be fair), I don't think he could have physically restrained the kid, who was about 6'5" and 300 pounds. As it was, the victim had to go through several months of rehab, and the attacker was charged with attempted murder. Who knows what would have happened if there hadn't been a police officer so close.

 

[lizzie]

especially the folks who love guns. Are more guns the solution to stop all these massacres of innocent children and other folks? LaPierre and the NRA and the gun industry strongly believe so. What is your thought?

"All these massacres" amounts to an average of 2 per year, over the last 30 or so years, if I remember correctly. I'm not downplaying the loss of innocent life, but the vast majority of gun crime is not massacres of innocent people, but gang-related and inner city crime. The answer is not more guns. We have plenty of guns, and I want to be able to buy a gun whenever I want, but there is absolutely no reason to restrict legal gunowners, because a nut pops his cork now and then. What we actually have is a cultural problem. Kids are being raised by the television and video games, and they form relationships via computers and cell phones, rather than face-to-face. They are overindulged to the point that there is nothing they really want, and not much meaning in their lives. Not all kids are going to be adversely affected by this, but some will, and it is to their psychological detriment.

Then we have the cases like the guy who beat his grandmother to death and only spent 17 years in prison- for BEATING his grandmother to death. What in the hell kind of animal beats his grandmother to death? THAT is what we are dealing with. The occasional homicidal animal who can't control his impulses. No amount of gun control will fix that problem.

 

[Guy Incognito]

especially the folks who love guns. Are more guns the solution to stop all these massacres of innocent children and other folks? LaPierre and the NRA and the gun industry strongly believe so. What is your thought?

Get out of here with this bull****! A gun ban isn't going to stop gun crime.

I know. Maybe if you ban death people will live forever. Maybe if you stick you fingers in your ears and say LALALA then nothing bad will ever happen again.

 

[Diogenes]

Then we have the cases like the guy who beat his grandmother to death and only spent 17 years in prison- for BEATING his grandmother to death. What in the hell kind of animal beats his grandmother to death? THAT is what we are dealing with. The occasional homicidal animal who can't control his impulses. No amount of gun control will fix that problem.

Great point. And isn't that the guy who recently ambushed and killed a couple of volunteer firefighters in New York state? In his case, there was an obvious and more effective solution than taking guns away from the law abiding folks. And back in our national "green" days, the rope to solve the problem could even be recycled to solve the next problem.

 

[JackFrost]

especially the folks who love guns. Are more guns the solution to stop all these massacres of innocent children and other folks? LaPierre and the NRA and the gun industry strongly believe so. What is your thought?

Once again, this is misinformation used by those attempting to discredit supporters of the right to bear arms.

Supporters of the 2nd Amendment LOVE Freedom, and USE guns to protect it.

-NOT-

Supporters of the 2nd Amendment LOVE Guns, and USE Freedom to protect it.

 

[CalGun]

I think the number is closer to 3 per year but if you listened to some of the "anti" gun community around these forums' you think it a daily occurance. I mean my God yesterday someon "centrist" posted we need to ban guns because someone with a CCW dropped his in a theater and left it behind and some kids found it and turned it in - for that he / she suggested more gun control. These people are off the deep end, and I'm really saddened that public education has failed to teach children of the left that tyranny is the reason we have a 2nd Amendment not home invasions and that violence in our country with the use of guns is 1/100th of what has happened by Governments against their own people - like in Syria right now.

"All these massacres" amounts to an average of 2 per year, over the last 30 or so years, if I remember correctly. I'm not downplaying the loss of innocent life, but the vast majority of gun crime is not massacres of innocent people, but gan-related and inner city crime. The answer is not more guns. We have plenty of guns, and I want to be able to buy a gun whenever I want, but there is absolutely no reason to restrict legal gunowners, because a nut pops his cork now and then. What we actually have is a cultural problem. Kids are being raised by the television and video games, and they form relationships via computers and cell phones, rather than face-to-face. They are overindulged to the point that there is nothing they really want, and not much meaning in their lives. Not all kids are going to be adversely affected by this, but some will, and it is to their psychological detriment.

Then we have the cases like the guy who beat his grandmother to death and only spent 17 years in prison- for BEATING his grandmother to death. What in the hell kind of animal beats his grandmother to death? THAT is what we are dealing with. The occasional homicidal animal who can't control his impulses. No amount of gun control will fix that problem.

 

[code1211]

Nothing is going to stop them. Perhaps we can slow them down or make them even more rare than they already are. And we should remember that they are rare. I don't think anyone can answer your question with empirical evidence since relatively few shootings are stopped by good guys with guns. Or, let me add, at least that's what we're led to believe. Newspapers rarely print good news...and when they do? It's rare that it gets picked up much past one's local area.

The headline :"Good guy scares away bad guy. Nobody hurt. No shots fired." won't sell a whole bunch of papers.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Once again, this is misinformation used by those attempting to discredit supporters of the right to bear arms.

Supporters of the 2nd Amendment LOVE Freedom, and USE guns to protect it.

-NOT-

Supporters of the 2nd Amendment LOVE Guns, and USE Freedom to protect it.

That isn't always true, unfortunately.

 

[JackFrost]

That isn't always true, unfortunately.

There are radicals in every single group. Radicals should never define any one group, unless it is a group of radicals I guess. But even in that case, there will be some more radical than others:lol:

What he is trying to do is define all 2nd amendment supporters as radical gun lovers, which is not the case.

 

[Jerry]

FWIW, my high school had an armed police officer on site.

Once, he broke up a fight when an expelled student entered during the lunch rush and attacked another student with a metal pipe. He saved the victim's life. If he hadn't had a weapon (he pulled his taser, not his gun...to be fair), I don't think he could have physically restrained the kid, who was about 6'5" and 300 pounds. As it was, the victim had to go through several months of rehab, and the attacker was charged with attempted murder. Who knows what would have happened if there hadn't been a police officer ["responsible person" with a weapon] so close.

I don't see why it has to be a cop.

 

[Jerry]

No one is suggesting more guns. What is suggested is that we let the good guys carry the ones that already exist because the bad guys sure do.

This is exactly the sort of bull**** game they play when talking about deficits and spending.

In the beginning, everyone could carry pretty much everywhere. That's the baseline standard. Gun-free zones are an infringement on the standard we began with. Removing gun-free zones is not "add more guns", it's returning to the normal. We tried the gun free zones thing, it's not working, in fact it's just making things worse. So it's time they were removed, and we can try something different.

 

[geewrd]

especially the folks who love guns. Are more guns the solution to stop all these massacres of innocent children and other folks? LaPierre and the NRA and the gun industry strongly believe so. What is your thought?

More guns=more killing, everyone knows that. Just like more bullets in a magazine=more deaths per mass shooting. It's simple math.

let's be perfectly honest here. The most effective legislation to stop these tragedies is re-instating the assault weapons ban, which we all know worked better than anyone wants to admit.

Come one people. we can't have killers running around with terrifying looking features like barrel shrouds, flash suppressors, and "silencers", it's common sense. And don't get me started on pistol grips. They should be called death grips, because they take a perfectly innocent hunting weapons and turn them into machines of people killing terror.

 

[ric27]

especially the folks who love guns. Are more guns the solution to stop all these massacres of innocent children and other folks? LaPierre and the NRA and the gun industry strongly believe so. What is your thought?

If people feel like killing each other, the means of the killing isn't all that important

 

[Jerry]

More guns=more killing....

The opposite is true.

Spoiler

Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive
Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?
A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence.
Din B. Kates* and Gary Mauser**

The study, which just appeared in Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence." Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases.

The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:

Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).

Here are two studies and specific incidents, which can be googled for more information.

Halt the Massacre of Innocent Children by Ending Prohibition on Self-Defense in Schools | Libertarian Party

• A 1997 high school shooting in Pearl, Miss., was halted by the school's vice principal after he retrieved the Colt .45 he kept in his truck.
• A 1998 middle school shooting ended when a man living next door heard gunfire and apprehended the shooter with his shotgun.
• A 2002 terrorist attack at an Israeli school was quickly stopped by an armed teacher and a school guard.
• A 2002 law school shooting in Grundy, Va., came to an abrupt conclusion when students carrying firearms confronted the shooter.
• A 2007 mall shooting in Salt Lake City, Utah, ended when an armed off-duty police officer intervened.
• A 2009 workplace shooting in Houston, Texas, was halted by two coworkers who carried concealed handguns.
• A 2012 church shooting in Aurora, Colo., was stopped by a member of the congregation carrying a gun.
• At the recent mall shooting in Portland, Ore., the gunman took his own life minutes after being confronted by a shopper carrying a concealed weapon.

Death by "Gun Control"

Report: In Virginia, more guns, less crime | The Daily Caller

EDITORIAL: Guns decrease murder rates
In Washington, the best defense is self-defense
By THE WASHINGTON TIMES

More guns in law-abiding hands mean less crime. The District of Columbia proves the point.

<snip>

Few who lived in Washington during the 1970s can forget the upswing in crime that started right after the ban was originally passed. In the five years before the 1977 ban, the murder rate fell from 37 to 27 murders per 100,000. In the five years after the gun ban went into effect, the murder rate rose back up to 35. One fact is particularly hard to ignore: D.C.'s murder rate fluctuated after 1976 but only once fell below what it was in 1976 before the ban. That aberration happened years later, in 1985.

This correlation between the D.C. gun ban and diminished safety was not a coincidence. Look at the Windy City. Immediately after Chicago banned handguns in 1982, the murder rate, which had been falling almost continually for a decade, started to rise. Chicago's murder rate rose relative to other large cities as well. The phenomenon of higher murder rates after gun bans are passed is not just limited to the United States. Every single time a country has passed a gun ban, its murder rate soared.

<snip>

Two Little Square Black Dogs: I do not have a gun... I am not a murderer

....The LA Times had an article about the The European disdain for America violence but shouldn't spend too much time congratulating themselves. In 2000 the rate at which people where assaulted was higher in England, Scotland, Finland, Denmark and Sweden than in The United States. In the decade since England banned all private possessions of gun the number of gun crimes has gone up.Some of the worst examples of mass gun violence has occurred in Europe from students and teachers killed in Germany, 14 legislators shot in Switzerland to 8 city council members being shot outside of Paris.

Just recently a taxi driver in Cumbria, England killed 12 people and wounded 11.

UK is violent crime capital of Europe - Telegraph

Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offenses in the UK since Labour came to power.

The total number of violent offenses recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa.

[The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.
By James Slack
Last updated at 12:14 AM on 3rd July 2009

In the decade following the party's election in 1997, the number of recorded violent attacks soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million - or more than two every minute.

The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:

• The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
• It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
• The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
• It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.

But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.

In the UK, there are 2,034 offenses per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677.

The intentional homicide rate shows North America is lower than Eastern Europe, and also lower than the world average, and FAR lower than MANY other regions in the world: List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

England's Homicide Rate

The homicide rate (per capita) in England and Wales was 9.1 in the year 1900, a time when gun control laws were relatively lax.
In 2009, when gun laws are of draconian strictness, the homicide rate is 14.1
This is from an official parliament report.

GunCite-Gun Accidents

Fatal gun accidents declined by almost sixty percent from 1975 to 1995, even though the number of guns per capita increased by almost forty percent.

Fatal gun accidents involving children (aged 0-14) also fell significantly, from 495 in 1975, to under 250 in 1995. More children die from accidental drowning’s or burns than from gun accidents.

(Gun supply statistics are from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, gun accident rates from the National Safety Council).

England has worse crime rate than the US, says Civitas study

England and Wales has one of the worst crime rates among developed nations for rapes, burglaries and robberies, a major report has found.

The study found that England and Wales ranked highly in a survey of crime rates among more than 30 developed counries, based on the frequency of crimes recorded by police for every 100,000 people.

• For burglaries and robberies England and Wales had more crimes per 100,000 people than the USA. England and Wales was ranked sixth for burglaries – worse than Sweden, Slovenia, the Czech Republic, Turkey, Italy and Chile - and for robberies, England and Wales was seventh.
• For rapes, England and Wales was ranked ninth, worse than the likes of Norway, Poland, Sweden, Australia and Germany, while for car thefts, England and Wales was eighth – worse than Slovenia, Chile, Mexico, Greece and the Czech Republic.

Nearly half of all offenders sent to prison are reconvicted within a year of release, creating a revolving door of crime.

Just like more bullets in a magazine=more deaths per mass shooting. It's simple math.

How do you figure?

let's be perfectly honest here. The most effective legislation to stop these tragedies is re-instating the assault weapons ban, which we all know worked better than anyone wants to admit.

Please provide your evidence that the last AWB accomplished this goal.

Come one people. we can't have killers running around with terrifying looking features like barrel shrouds, flash suppressors, and "silencers", it's common sense.

How many silencers/suppressors were used in any mass shooting?

And don't get me started on pistol grips. They should be called death grips, because they take a perfectly innocent hunting weapons and turn them into machines of people killing terror.

I can't wait to see your link on this one, either.

 

[Glowpun]

If people feel like killing each other, the means of the killing isn't all that important

Uh-huh. But a gun is a much more efficient way of killing don't you think? Using a knife or ax is so messy.

 

[geewrd]

The opposite is true.

Spoiler

Here are two studies and specific incidents, which can be googled for more information.

Halt the Massacre of Innocent Children by Ending Prohibition on Self-Defense in Schools | Libertarian Party

• A 1997 high school shooting in Pearl, Miss., was halted by the school's vice principal after he retrieved the Colt .45 he kept in his truck.
• A 1998 middle school shooting ended when a man living next door heard gunfire and apprehended the shooter with his shotgun.
• A 2002 terrorist attack at an Israeli school was quickly stopped by an armed teacher and a school guard.
• A 2002 law school shooting in Grundy, Va., came to an abrupt conclusion when students carrying firearms confronted the shooter.
• A 2007 mall shooting in Salt Lake City, Utah, ended when an armed off-duty police officer intervened.
• A 2009 workplace shooting in Houston, Texas, was halted by two coworkers who carried concealed handguns.
• A 2012 church shooting in Aurora, Colo., was stopped by a member of the congregation carrying a gun.
• At the recent mall shooting in Portland, Ore., the gunman took his own life minutes after being confronted by a shopper carrying a concealed weapon.

Death by "Gun Control"

Report: In Virginia, more guns, less crime | The Daily Caller












The intentional homicide rate shows North America is lower than Eastern Europe, and also lower than the world average, and FAR lower than MANY other regions in the world: List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How do you figure?


Please provide your evidence that the last AWB accomplished this goal.


How many silencers/suppressors were used in any mass shooting?


I can't wait to see your link on this one, either.

I didn't make my sarcasm clear enough in this post.

I strongly oppose any form of federal or state government interference in our right to own weapons. If local governments want to pass stupid laws, then I, and many others, will choose not to patronize their criminal protection zones.

 

[elalumno]

More guns=more killing, everyone knows that.

Well that sure is the oft repeated catch phrase, but actually, no, that is not correct or supported by the facts. Allow me to demonstrate:

In 2011, an estimated 14,612 persons were murdered in the United States. This was a 0.7 percent decrease from the 2010 estimate, a 14.7 percent decline from the 2007 figure, and a 10.0 percent decrease from the 2002 estimate.

The 2011 estimated number of robberies decreased 4.0 percent from the 2010 estimate and 20.8 percent from the 2007 estimate.

The estimated number of aggravated assaults in 2011 declined 3.9 percent when compared with data from 2010 and 15.7 percent when compared with the estimate for 2002.

FBI — Violent Crime

You can view the data here

Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

Also, data on gun sales:


This was a banner year for guns -- 2011 is set to smash the record for gun sales.

The record for a single year was set just last year, when the FBI reported that 14,409,616 background checks were requested. In 2011 that figure will top 16 million. FBI spokesman Steve Fischer said just 1.3% of background checks result in denial of a weapon.

With a week left in December, the FBI said the monthly record has already been broken, and that was only set last month when 1,534,414 background checks were requested from the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS).

2011 Smashes Sales Record for Guns


And I'll add a bit more to show how CCW has grown.

 

[LaMidRighter]

Uh-huh. But a gun is a much more efficient way of killing don't you think? Using a knife or ax is so messy.

Poison is even more efficient, no blood, when the coroner's report comes out the residual evidence is gone, readily available in nature, and many poisons can be introduced into the water system. Maybe we should ban poison..................oh wait.