• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

justabubba said:
wrong

you come up to me and ask me questions i do not want to answer i can walk away, ignore you, tell you to screw off. but significantly, i do not assault you physically, giving you cause to need to defend yourself

you come up to me and ask me questions and then i assault you physically because i do not like that you dared confront me with your questions, then the person i assaulted may very well defend himself ... and if he is carrying, with lethal force

the question about who initiated the physical assault is key to determining which of these guys was at fault

unfortunately, we only have one surviving eyewitness. he says that he was attacked and responded in self defense

i keep looking to those of you who believe differently to explain why that statement by zimmerman - that he acted in self defense - is not possible
Click to expand...

Indeed, under Florida they have to prove it was 100% absolutely impossible and impossible there was any other legitimate reason Zimmerman fired too.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Hatuey said:
I don't know about you but I doubt there are many 17 year old B-Students who'd start an altercation with a man weighing 100 pounds more than them and holding a gun .
Click to expand...

how do we know he was holding a gun. we know he was carrying, but we do not know that it was exposed. if it had been obvious, i think the kid would have relayed that observation in his call to his girl friend

i weigh 230 and change; i'm 59 years old and fit

there are a significant number of 330+ guys i know i could take, only because i will have sized them up to know they are heavy but also probably weak and slow

the kid was a 17 year old football player. he could have sized up zimmerman to recognize that zimmerman could be taken. and if zimmerman's story is correct, but for zimmerman's gun, the kid would have kicked his overzealous ass
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
Indeed, under Florida they have to prove it was 100% absolutely impossible and impossible there was any other legitimate reason Zimmerman fired too.
Click to expand...

How so? The prosecution has to prove that Zimmerman killed Martin. Zimmerman has to prove he acted in self defense. If Zimmerman is able to prove he acted in self defense, THEN the prosecution has to disprove self defense.

Also there is no law that allows you to provoke someone into threatening you to allow you to kiill them. If that were the case we could all just make someone mad enough to justify killing them. It doesn't work that way.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

justabubba said:
how do we know he was holding a gun.
Click to expand...

He used it to shoot the ****ing kid.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

justabubba said:
how do we know he was holding a gun. we know he was carrying, but we do not know that it was exposed. if it had been obvious, i think the kid would have relayed that observation in his call to his girl friend

i weigh 230 and change; i'm 59 years old and fit

there are a significant number of 330+ guys i know i could take, only because i will have sized them up to know they are heavy but also probably weak and slow

the kid was a 17 year old football player. he could have sized up zimmerman to recognize that zimmerman could be taken. and if zimmerman's story is correct, but for zimmerman's gun, the kid would have kicked his overzealous ass
Click to expand...

None of this matters. None of it justifies Zimmerman shooting Martin. Show me something, anything, that justifies Martin being chased by armed man who was trying to restrain him. How did Martin initiate these events?
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
They need the forensics results. Whose voice and what said on second 911 call by witness and the autopsy for injuries to Martin's body, distance of the shot and angle. They need to have spoken to every reasonable possible witness - including to insure some surprise witness for Zimmerman doesn't show up at trial - and if Zimmerman is stupidly still talking to police they need to keep him talking until nothing left to obtain from him.

Whether or not it was shoddy police work before, they need to do it right now, not to please public outcries for swift summary action.

This is not a domestic violence case where police just tend to arrest anyone accused by anyone of violence. Murder cases without a living witness to the shooting or murder cases without a witness to the murder - such as Casey Anthony - are VERY difficult to win under Florida laws. That also is what criminal trial lawyers on TV are saying about this case.
Click to expand...

It's been a month. I think that's plenty of time. :roll:
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Thorgasm said:
I answered you. You willfully ignored it.
Click to expand...
ok, let's look at your post:
Thorgasm said:
If he was following Martin, how did he lose him? How was Martin able to hide in bushes and jump him from behind? If Martin was running, I'm sure he could have made it to his destination before Zimmerman could have caught him. Martin was a thin football player.

Regardless, Martin's girlfriend's statement says that Zimmerman confronted Martin. That flies in the face of his being jumped from behind story.
Click to expand...
the kid was trying to evade zimmerman as is known from his conversation with the girl friend
the car is limited to the street
did the kid alter his path to go behind houses to conceal himself from zimmerman, thus causing zimmerman to think his suspicion of the kid's actions were now justified

the assault resulted before the gun was fired
we know from the girl friend's recollection of the telco that the kid asked zimmerman "why are you following me" and that zimmerman replied with "what are you doing here"
after that we do not know what happened other than zimmerman sustains a broken/bloody nose and a scalp laceration and the kid dies of a bullet wound

could it have been that after confronting the kid and asking what he was doing there zimmerman made himself vulnerable to an attack by the kid - pissed that he dared be confronted by the fat ass cop wannabe wearing civilian clothes - and the kid was kicking zimmerman's ass. that it was zimmerman who was doing the whining and making the pleas for help that we can hear on the 911 call and that by shooting the kid who assaulted him that ended his need to continue yelling for help

tell me how that could not have been a possibility

as joko keeps telling us, the forensics will help solve this. if we find that it was the kid who was pleading for help, then zimmerman is toast. if not, then zimmerman is probably telling us what actually happened. and under the law, if we do not have proof that zimmerman acted illegally, then he cannot be justifiably convicted
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

justabubba said:
interesting position
that a physical assault can be initiated without any physical assault. please share with us just how that can happen


are you now trying to pretend zimmerman got his bloody/broken nose and scalp wound as a result of violence with his wife before he began monitoring the activities of the kid
if not, then you have shown you are unable to explain how he received those injuries if not at the hands of the kid

then you now want us to believe that zimmerman initiated the physical assault and received these injuries when the kid was defending himself from such physical assault

if it was so obvious, you would have accepted my challenge to explain for us how it was not possible for zimmerman's account to have been possible. but you avoided that challenge, because it was one you could not meet. which tells me your statement that the ability to know who the aggressor was is pretty obvious is patently false. because if it was easy you would be able to explain why zimmerman's account is not possible

zimmerman had a permit to carry that weapon. many, many people are authorized to carry such a weapon, after first being found by legal authorities to do so
what we know is that the kid asked zimmerman 'why are you following me' and zimmerman replied with 'what are you doing here'
after that, all we know is that there was a physical altercation and zimmerman wound up shooting the kid. the only known surviving eyewitness to the incident - zimmerman - insists he used his weapon in self defense after being physically assaulted by the kid
now, i will challenge you again, explain for us how zimmerman's account could not possibly be true
Click to expand...

Explain to us why Zimmerman's account should be taken at face value with no questions asked, especially considering his background.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

justabubba said:
how do we know he was holding a gun. we know he was carrying, but we do not know that it was exposed. if it had been obvious, i think the kid would have relayed that observation in his call to his girl friend

i weigh 230 and change; i'm 59 years old and fit

there are a significant number of 330+ guys i know i could take, only because i will have sized them up to know they are heavy but also probably weak and slow

the kid was a 17 year old football player. he could have sized up zimmerman to recognize that zimmerman could be taken. and if zimmerman's story is correct, but for zimmerman's gun, the kid would have kicked his overzealous ass
Click to expand...

I mentioned that many pages back. I was in hundreds if not over a thousand real fights (irrelevant to explain why) and if had to gamble, I'd put my money on Martin.

And as you mentioned, unlikely as it may be, it isn't provable (that we know of) who was holding the gun. Maybe Martin slugged Zimmerman knocking him down, gun dropped, struggle over the gun and a shot point-blank. Maybe very, very unlikely. BUT that's all it takes for the Defense and the prosecution has to show it DIDN'T happen that way. So... what does forensics say about prints and DNA on that gun?

BTW, what kind of firearm was it? Anyone know? 9mm? 44 bulldog? .357? Where was Martin hit? From witnesses about sound and the second 911 tape it sounds like an instant kill?
 
Last edited:
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

How did you manage to be in over a 1,000 fights and not get shot? :lol:

Maybe you got hit in the head a few hundred times too many?
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
Indeed, under Florida they have to prove it was 100% absolutely impossible and impossible there was any other legitimate reason Zimmerman fired too.
Click to expand...
I see ...

florida-violent-crime-comparison.webp
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
I mentioned that many pages back. I was in hundreds if not over a thousand real fights (irrelevant to explain why) and if had to gamble, I'd put my money on Martin.

And as you mentioned, unlikely as it may be, it isn't provable (that we know of) who was holding the gun. Maybe Martin slugged Zimmerman knocking him down, gun dropped, struggle over the gun and a shot point-blank. Maybe very, very unlikely. BUT that's all it takes for the Defense and the prosecution has to show it DIDN'T happen that way. So... what does forensics say about prints and DNA on that gun?

BTW, what kind of firearm was it? Anyone know? 9mm? 44 bulldog? .357? Where was Martin hit? From witnesses about sound and the second 911 tape it sounds like an instant kill?
Click to expand...

Reasonable doubt does not mean no far fetched has brained idea is at all even remotely possible gets the killer off. Has to be reasonable.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Based on the available evidence, it appears the shooter acted appropriately, because the Black dude did not just walk by but rather (apparently) punched the shooter in the face.

Anytime a reasonably fit adult punches another in the face, the potential threat to the punchee escalates because a fight will ensue unless the punchee quickly terminates the fight (i. e. by shooting the puncher).
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Thorgasm said:
How did you manage to be in over a 1,000 fights and not get shot? :lol:

Maybe you got hit in the head a few hundred times too many?
Click to expand...

A thousand fights? That's more fights than a professional boxer will see in a lifetime.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

This is a very important case, and I hope Zimmerman ends up the winner because people should have the right to defend themselves against non-lethal physical threats with deadly force.

The use of deadly force in such instances where the possibility of retaliation is also remote is 100% logical.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Wiggen said:
Explain to us why Zimmerman's account should be taken at face value with no questions asked, especially considering his background.
Click to expand...

only because that is all we have as an eyewitness account
certainly it could be self serving since zimmerman is the only surviving eyewitness
but it also may be true
the burden of proof is on the state to show that zimmerman's claim of self defense is not a possible reality
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Wiggen said:
A thousand fights? That's more fights than a professional boxer will see in a lifetime.
Click to expand...


I know. :rofl
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

solletica said:
This is a very important case, and I hope Zimmerman ends up the winner because people should have the right to defend themselves against non-lethal physical threats with deadly force.
Click to expand...

there can be no winner
we have one life lost and two families in grief

let's hope that justice prevails
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Ain't no rocket science involved. Kid was gonna stop by and maybe visit his sweetie pie, and was being stalked by an ego-driven, power mad, obscenly obese, psychotic individual who fantasized himself a cop. Pseudo psychotic fat bob builds images of crime, chaos, mayhem, skulduggery in a brain slowed by fat globules blocking synaptic responses. He is the cause, the perpetrator, and the criminal, and to make excuses to justify his multiple wrongs panders to the inferiority complexes that cause people like him to carry weapons. There oughta be a law!
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

justabubba said:
there can be no winner
we have one life lost and two families in grief

let's hope that justice prevails
Click to expand...

If Zimmerman has a good lawyer, justice will prevail. If it does, Zimmerman will emerge the winner because all he has to do is change his name and move to AL or AZ, racist states where the establishment doesn't care if people of color are shot.
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

solletica said:
This is a very important case, and I hope Zimmerman ends up the winner because people should have the right to defend themselves against non-lethal physical threats with deadly force.

The use of deadly force in such instances where the possibility of retaliation is also remote is 100% logical.
Click to expand...

"You aren't threatening my life so I should be able to kill you legally." is 100% logical? :rofl
 
Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Betcha no one considered what would have happened if the neighborhood watchman had been Black instead of Latino.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom