Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

[SUB][/SUB]

Too bad his opinion contradicts Zimmerman's story and the story of the girlfriend on the phone.

The rest of your post is pretty much you blaming Martin for being murdered, so...


Also, anybody can be a racist.

Question: If someone follows you, approaches you to rob you, you push them, both of you get in a fight where the robber falls and then the robber shoots you dead, does he get to go free?

Your analogy is inapplicable since Florida's SYG law does not apply to someone resorting to deadly force, even in self defense, if they themselves are engaged in committing a felony. I have seen no evidence that Zimmerman was doing anything illegal while chasing Martin down.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

[SUB][/SUB]

Your analogy is inapplicable since Florida's SYG law does not apply to someone resorting to deadly force, even in self defense, if they themselves are engaged in committing a felony. I have seen no evidence that Zimmerman was doing anything illegal while chasing Martin down.

Actually, my analogy is completely applicable because in my analogy, the potential robber hasn't actually robbed anyone.

 

[Gie]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

[SUB][/SUB]

Your analogy is inapplicable since Florida's SYG law does not apply to someone resorting to deadly force, even in self defense, if they themselves are engaged in committing a felony. I have seen no evidence that Zimmerman was doing anything illegal while chasing Martin down.

Given that he ignored the police dispatcher and has a history of "going after" people in public, I hope a jury of his peers will get to decide who was guilty of what here. But that is just me. Clearly Martin was not doing anything wrong and it is just as clear to me that the local law enforcement authorities thought this case would just go away once they released the audio tapes. Now that the FBI is investigating and public outcry is reaching a fevered pitch, well local law enforcement authorities were wrong. And I'm glad of it. The law in question might need some tweaking once this case get resolved one way or the other.

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

But with the evidence that we KNOW about Zimmermann, how could one be on his side?

Because the evidence fits his narrative.

So far he appears to have gotten away with pre-meditated first degree murder.

Wow. The evidence doesn't support that conclusion at all.

firearmWhat took place here was the 2012 version of a lynching.

No it is not.

i'll bet a jury sends him to jail. he's despicable.

How much are you willing to bet?

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

None of that is true. Zimmerman approached a person with a loaded gun without cause or authority to do so. That makes Zimmerman the aggressor. If you are the aggressor, self defense is not possible. Give it up. Your wrong.

I have read this thread from beginning to end and those that are all for convicting Zimmerman have a totally biased way of looking at the facts and twisting them to fit their preconceived narrative.

For instance; Zimmerman was told by police not not follow the individual.
That never happened. A 911 operator told Zimmerman that "they" didn't need him to follow
the individual. That is not an 'order'. That is not 'telling' him to do anything. All it is, is advice from an operator.

Another for instance is the above statement that, "Zimmerman approached a person with a loaded gun without cause or authority to do so."
This statement is twisting the facts to fit a preconceived narrative. It was made to sound like Zimmerman was brandishing his firearm.
The truth is that Zimmerman had a loaded firearm on him when contact between the two was made and there was no authority needed to approach.

If people can not reiterate the facts without twisting them, their position is weak.

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

was Zimmermann following the kid?

yes he was. that makes him the aggressor.

No it does not.

I'm not too sure where you are getting your information from. The latest details on this story, that I saw reported on CNN and Fox News last night, is that not only are their multiple witnesses to the shooting but that the shooting is captured live on Martin's cell phone. He did nothing, saw his attacker watching him, saw his attacker approaching him (all while on the phone describing what was happening to his girlfriend as it was happening) and then he was pushed down by Zimmerman and shot point blank. Martin was simply guilty of walking down the street. The audio recording of the entire incident has been released to the public and there is not one shred of evidence that Martin did anything wrong, much less to justify cold blooded murder.

I have been following this story and I have yet to see your narrative reported.
Please provide a link to this information.
Because if that is what happened then of course Zimmerman is guilty, but as it stands now, the evidence points to Zimmerman's story being correct.

Martins girlfriend confirmed it.

No. The girlfriend confirms that it was Martin who confronted and made contact with Zimmerman first.

There's also evidence that Zimmerman chased him down and initiated the confrontation.

No there is not.

Zimmerman was told by police to stay put. He did not.

Perfect example of what I was speaking about.
This is a dishonest presentation of the facts.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I have read this thread from beginning to end and those that are all for convicting Zimmerman have a totally biased way of looking at the facts and twisting them to fit their preconceived narrative.

For instance; Zimmerman was told by police not not follow the individual.
That never happened. A 911 operator told Zimmerman that "they" didn't need him to follow
the individual. That is not an 'order'. That is not 'telling' him to do anything. All it is, is advice from an operator.

This doesn't change anything. The point is that he followed, regardless, which makes him the aggressor. If I'm walking home from 7/11 and someone starts following me and then runs after me, they are the aggressor. Period.

Another for instance is the above statement that, "Zimmerman approached a person with a loaded gun without cause or authority to do so."
This statement is twisting the facts to fit a preconceived narrative. It was made to sound like Zimmerman was brandishing his firearm.
The truth is that Zimmerman had a loaded firearm on him when contact between the two was made and there was no authority needed to approach.

No, it makes it sound like Zimmerman had a loaded gun. Period.

If people can not reiterate the facts without twisting them, their position is weak.

You just twisted someone saying "he had a loaded gun" into "he's brandishing his weapon". I guess you're talking about yourself.

 

[Porchev]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Nailed it on the first try.

Thanks. That is just the way I see it based on all the things I read and watched on the news.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Actually, my analogy is completely applicable because in my analogy, the potential robber hasn't actually robbed anyone.

You painted a picture a robber approaching a victim to rob them. That is criminal behavior not protected by the SYG law. The robber need not be successful in his robbery attempt in order for it to be a criminal offense. If anything, the victim in your analogy would be within their rights to employ lethal force to defend themselves from the robber, according to Florida's SYG law.

 

[Kreton]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

[SUB][/SUB]

Your analogy is inapplicable since Florida's SYG law does not apply to someone resorting to deadly force, even in self defense, if they themselves are engaged in committing a felony. I have seen no evidence that Zimmerman was doing anything illegal while chasing Martin down.

Check with your local PD, or call the PD in Florida, or any state or city in the United States. Ask them if you can legally chase funny looking strangers down the street with a loaded gun. Let us know what they tell you.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

if Martin was being followed by Zimmermann, and Martin felt threatened by Zimmermann, then Martin had the right to resist Martin with violence.

 

[Porchev]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I like this point of view as well:

"...Bottom line – as things look now – it would appear that this so-called “neighborhood watch captain”, George Zimmerman, was a law enforcement wannabe who was destined to end up in a controversy like this. Some stories refer to him as a “self-appointed” neighborhood watchman. One story mentioned that Zimmerman had called 911 perhaps as much as 50 times reporting “suspicious persons” in his neighborhood. I could not find one instance where Zimmerman’s calls actually turned out to be valid … most were false alarms.

Treyvon Martin’s family says that they don’t believe that their son would have been killed if it were not for the color of his skin. I believe they’re right.

The Grand Jury will convene on April 10th to consider this case. I feel it is likely that charges will be brought against Zimmerman, as they should be. He should not be able to use Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” statute as a defense. You are not “standing your ground” when you are pursuing someone..." --Neal Boortz

Treyvon Martin | Nealz Nuze | www.boortz.com

 

[Kreton]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

You painted a picture a robber approaching a victim to rob them. That is criminal behavior not protected by the SYG law. The robber need not be successful in his robbery attempt in order for it to be a criminal offense. If anything, the victim in your analogy would be within their rights to employ lethal force to defend themselves from the robber, according to Florida's SYG law.

Stop referencing SYG. It is not applicable. That has been stated.

 

[ric27]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I have read this thread from beginning to end and those that are all for convicting Zimmerman have a totally biased way of looking at the facts and twisting them to fit their preconceived narrative.

For instance; Zimmerman was told by police not not follow the individual.
That never happened. A 911 operator told Zimmerman that "they" didn't need him to follow
the individual. That is not an 'order'. That is not 'telling' him to do anything. All it is, is advice from an operator.

Another for instance is the above statement that, "Zimmerman approached a person with a loaded gun without cause or authority to do so."
This statement is twisting the facts to fit a preconceived narrative. It was made to sound like Zimmerman was brandishing his firearm.
The truth is that Zimmerman had a loaded firearm on him when contact between the two was made and there was no authority needed to approach.

If people can not reiterate the facts without twisting them, their position is weak.

Carrying a firearm and not obtaining quality training is just plain stupid...and each time you use lethal force on someone you will need to point to specific articulable facts as to why that person was a lethal force threat at the specific time you fired.

Also, the tactical shooting portion is just a small part of it. The legalities surrounding the decision making process of using lethal force is very complex.

Wonder if Zimmerman read and studied as much as he could on the matter, and made sure that he had a sound understanding of the laws that apply to his particular jurisdiction

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

The point is that he followed, regardless, which makes him the aggressor.

No it doesn't.
His purpose; that is: 'his intent', is what is germane.
All the evidence points to is that he was following him so he could point him out to the police. Not to confront him.

No, it makes it sound like Zimmerman had a loaded gun. Period.

No. The statement is form from an individual who has a preconceived notion of what happened And it is clearly fashioned to be biased and does make it sound as if Zimmerman was brandishing a weapon instead of just being an armed individual.

You just twisted someone saying "he had a loaded gun" into "he's brandishing his weapon". I guess you're talking about yourself.

I have explained the statement makes it sound that way. Stating what something sounds like is not twisting.

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Carrying a firearm and not obtaining quality training is just plain stupid...

That may be.

each time you use lethal force on someone you will need to point to specific articulable facts as to why that person was a lethal force threat at the specific time you fired.

Also, the tactical shooting portion is just a small part of it. The legalities surrounding the decision making process of using lethal force is very complex.

I am more than positive that the police questioned Zimmerman.
And he relayed what had happened.

As pointed out by another poster what ever was said was not enough for the police to arrest him, but was enough to be forwarded to the DA's office.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

You painted a picture a robber approaching a victim to rob them. That is criminal behavior not protected by the SYG law. The robber need not be successful in his robbery attempt in order for it to be a criminal offense. If anything, the victim in your analogy would be within their rights to employ lethal force to defend themselves from the robber, according to Florida's SYG law.

You're missing the point.

1. Robber follows and approaches person X.
2. Person X turns around and shoves robber.
3. Person X and robber fight.
4. Robber falls and shoots person X.

The entire point of my analogy is to show that Martin fighting back and Zimmerman falling does not matter. A robber can fall after being fought off by a victim and still be the aggressor. The same is true for this case. Joko is attempting to use Martin fighting and Zimmerman falling as proof that Zimmerman was not the aggressor. Unfortunately for him, an aggressor can fall. Whether or not the robber committed a felony is completely irrelevant to what my analogy is point out. (There's also the fact that, in my analogy, the robber never actually robs anyone so he's the only one who knows his intent which makes it that much more irrelevant.)

So again, joko: If someone follows you, approaches you to rob you, you push them, both of you get in a fight where the robber falls and then the robber shoots you dead, does he get to go free?

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Stop referencing SYG. It is not applicable. That has been stated.

Then cite the Florida law you think is applicable...

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

No it doesn't.
His purpose; that is: 'his intent', is what is germane.
All the evidence points to is that he was following him so he could point him out to the police. Not to confront him.

Except not.

No. The statement is form from an individual who has a preconceived notion of what happened And it is clearly fashioned to be biased and does make it sound as if Zimmerman was brandishing a weapon instead of just being an armed individual.

No, it makes it sound like Zimmerman had a loaded gun because the statement was "Zimmerman had a loaded gun". You are mixing up inferences and implications.

I have explained the statement makes it sound that way. Stating what something sounds like is not twisting.

No, you didn't say, the statement "makes it sound that way". You said, "the statement was made to sound that way" attributing intent to the author of the comment meaning that you distorted it. So again, you're talking about yourself.

 

[Kreton]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

You're missing the point.

1. Robber follows and approaches person X.
2. Person X turns around and shoves robber.
3. Person X and robber fight.
4. Robber falls and shoots person X.

The entire point of my analogy is to show that Martin fighting back and Zimmerman falling does not matter. A robber can fall after being fought off by a victim and still be the aggressor. The same is true for this case. Whether or not the robber committed a felony is completely irrelevant to what my analogy is point out. (There's also the fact that, in my analogy, the robber never actually robs anyone so he's the only one who knows his intent which makes it that much more irrelevant.)

So again, joko: If someone follows you, approaches you to rob you, you push them, both of you get in a fight where the robber falls and then the robber shoots you dead, does he get to go free?

You probably shouldn't ask Joko a question. he wont asnwer it. What is is going to do is focus on one word such as "approaches" and talk about that in an effort to avoid actually addressing your post.

 

[Kreton]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Then cite the Florida law you think is applicable...

None of them. No law gives the right to chase someone down and murder them.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I just heard on NBC News that the Sanford Police believe that Zimmermann did NOT follow Martin, returned to his car, and then Martin actually attacked Zimmermann.

you have got to be ****ing kidding me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Zimmermann says on the damn phone, that he was following Martin!!!!!!!!!

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

You probably shouldn't ask Joko a question. he wont asnwer it. What is is going to do is focus on one word such as "approaches" and talk about that in an effort to avoid actually addressing your post.

Haha, yeah, you're right and by the now, the question has become much more than it needs to be.

 

[What if...?]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

LOL. So what OTHER posters post is what is irrelevant!

If you approach someone you are an "aggressor?" There really isn't much reason to comment on that again. Zimmerman approached him? Prove it.

He was in his car and then he was not. He CHOSE to get out. Moving towards someone is approaching.

 

[solletica]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

one more of their brethren has been gunned down in cold blood, possibly by a racist vigalante.

can you blaim them for being pissed?

Yes they should be blamed, because they're acting dumb . They're allowing their resentment of America's long history of institutional discrimination against African-Americans taint their perceptions.

If any of those Black protesters had encountered a belligerent troublesome individual on the streets, he would've shot that person or at the very least, counterattacked the perpetrator aggressively in some way if he/she knew the legal consequences of doing so were small.

True, there is no hard evidence that the kid initiated any aggression, but the shooter did have a bloody nose suggesting he was punched.

One has to consider what happens when misbehaving youths aren't confronted and are simply allowed to roam the streets in one's neighborhood. Eventually, tolerance for this kind of thing simply encourages more of them to come into the neighborhood and cause more trouble, resulting in unprovoked vandalism, theft, murder, or rape. All mature people know this, including African-Americans. Blacks have just as much intolerance for violent crime as Whites, Latinos, or anyone else. . .

"When I go to the money machine tonight, alright, I ain't looking over my back for the media, I'm looking for niggas! What, you think I've got 3 guns in my house 'cause the media outside?"

Niggas vs. Black People - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia