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Fallaci: "This is what I write about Europe..

What about the spread of Sharia Law?
What spread? You mean arbitration pannels?

Muslims deciding what can or cannot be published?
Misunderstood or PSOYA, I can't decide.
The recent passing of Blasphemy laws in Ireland?
You mean the ones protecting the Catholic Church?
 
She's just echoing what she's seen Americans on this forum say to Europeans who dare to comment on what goes on in America. It's an entirely valid criticism to aim at you, and frankly I don't see how your experience and family connections can possibly trump someone who, oh, lives there.
It's valid criticism, if it was not aimed at Grant. I find it funny that a case for Grants supposed fear mongering relies on a position Grant did not take, not in this thread or any other.

In an effort to debase your hollow accusation, this european finds Grant extremely well informed. Not only does he understand what troubles us today, he also knows where we come from, the geopolitical reality of post WW2 Europe.

Criticism of Islam can not be qualified as fear mongering as long as it can get you killed. Just ask Theo van Gogh's son, who recently got beat up again by muslims youths. As if the killing of his father wasn't enough.


“A people that gives in to tyranny will lose more than body and property; then the Light will be extinguished.” (HM van Randwijk)
 
"What spread? You mean arbitration pannels?"

Had I meant arbitration panels I would have said arbitration panels.

Sharia's Inroads in Europe - Italian Court: 'Beaten Up for "Her Own Good"' - Hudson New York

SHARIA EUROPE - Sharia Law In Europe: UK, France, Germany ...

You mean the ones protecting the Catholic Church?
No. All religions are covered. You should be more familiar with the subject than a foreigner but perhaps the News Blackout over there continues.

There will probably be more than just Catholics, a disappearing religion anyway, who'll be taking advantage of this new law. One particularly aggressive religion springs to mind,

Ireland passes blasphemy law
 
Islamic supremacists are so toxic that they are in their element when cooped up with other nasty, vicious types:

BBC News - Growing fears over Muslim prison 'gangs'


Dominating, mob-like, brutal, fiendish...... chips off the old Muhammadean block. And typically male too, the usual perpetrators of enforced Islamism.

That's Multiculturalism in action again. 'Tolerate' and 'Embrace' it - or end up in the cells with them!
 
That's nice. It's also illegal.
It violates the charter and precedent:
European Court of Human Rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Refah Partisi v Turkey

In upholding the Turkish Constitutional Court's dissolution of The Welfare Party (Refah Partisi) for violating Turkey's principle of secularism (by calling for the re-introduction of religious law) the court held "that sharia is incompatible with the fundamental principles of democracy."[15] The Court justified the breach of the appellants' rights by reasoning that a legal regime based on sharia would diverge from the Convention's values, "particularly with regard to its criminal law and criminal procedure, its rules on the status of women and the way it intervenes in all spheres of private and public life in accordance with religious precepts."[16]


I am finding it very difficult to find any information on this particular trial. Smells rather fishy though. And Italy is a signatory of the above.

No. All religions are covered. You should be more familiar with the subject than a foreigner but perhaps the News Blackout over there continues.
Notice that part?

There will probably be more than just Catholics, a disappearing religion anyway, who'll be taking advantage of this new law. One particularly aggressive religion springs to mind,
Scientology?
 
That's nice. It's also illegal.
It violates the charter and precedent:

Why is it nice?

It So Brussels will decide what the Irish can do. Who knows? Perhaps that's a good thing. +It tool the Americans to straighten out their centuries of earlier 'troubles', Maybe the Belch know what they're doing.

Or maybe not.

Troubles in Brussels: EU Lacks Ideas and Direction in Economic Crisis - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Scientology?

No, they have Scientology under control. I saw them boldly attacking Tom Cruise and seriously questioning John Travolta so it seems they have a firm grip on any Scientologists who dare name their faith.
 
Why is it nice?
It's nice that it ended up in court. That kind of speaks against the whole replacing the courts with Sharia.

It So Brussels will decide what the Irish can do.
Nope. Ireland gets to decide what Ireland can do. And we signed treaty agreeing to it.

Who knows? Perhaps that's a good thing. +It tool the Americans to straighten out their centuries of earlier 'troubles', Maybe the Belch know what they're doing.
It took protestants and catholics working together to get it going. America played a huge part in facilitating that. Back in the days when international relations didn't envolve the 1st Marine Division. It's about the only time the US actually successfully handled a terrorism problem.


We have jumped form sectarian violence to economic policy...what's wrong, run out of Mooslim invasion bollox to cite?
 
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Ireland gets to decide what Ireland can do. And we signed treaty agreeing to it.

Right. And Ireland decided to pass a blasphemy law that makes it illegal to criticize Islam. Good luck with that!

"It took protestants and catholics working together to get it going".

Sure. I'm somewhat familiar, as is most everyone, with just how well they were getting along.

America played a huge part in facilitating that".

It played the only part. Any European country attempting the same thing would be laughed at.

It's about the only time the US actually successfully handled a terrorism problem.

That's because, unlike in Europe, terrorism has never been much of a problem in North America. Europe has always been home to terrorists of one sort of another, and you've never been able to solve these problem. Instead you rationalize and support it. Now you plead with the Americans to help you, just as you've always done, and they have to solve the problem for you.


We have jumped form sectarian violence to economic policy...what's wrong, run out of Mooslim invasion bollox to cite?

No, we can continue with that, if you prefer.

Politicians Fret as Muslim Population Swells in Europe Amid Little Integration - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News - FOXNews.com

Islam in Europe: Brussels: Possible Muslim majority in 15-20 years

From Magna Carta to Sharia Law ? Britain?s Decline | The Brussels Journal
 
I don't think you continuing to attach endless links to right-wing propaganda sites is quite what Alvin had in mind.

Left Wing Good - Right Wing Bad.

That, and only that, is all you Eurolefties need to know, and in fact all you do know.
 
Left Wing Good - Right Wing Bad.

That, and only that, is all you Eurolefties need to know, and in fact all you do know.

Not quite, tolerant good, demonising bad. Perspective good, wild exaggeration bad. Balance of opinions good, tunnel vision bad.
 
Not quite, tolerant good, demonising bad. Perspective good, wild exaggeration bad. Balance of opinions good, tunnel vision bad.

Nonsense!

You dismiss anything that might offend you as "I don't think you continuing to attach endless links to right-wing propaganda sites is quite what Alvin had in mind", without actually reading the sites or disputing the facts.

It's always Left vs Right to the Eurolefties, and the truth will always take a back seat to your political beliefs..
 
Nonsense!

You dismiss anything that might offend you as "I don't think you continuing to attach endless links to right-wing propaganda sites is quite what Alvin had in mind", without actually reading the sites or disputing the facts.

It's always Left vs Right to the Eurolefties, and the truth will always take a back seat to your political beliefs..

When you start attaching, for example, a link to a WSJ article, an NYT article and a Guardian article to illustrate your point, I might start believing you are interested in a thoughtful and balanced view on a subject. Quote Fallaci and Edward Said and I might think you are at least trying to understand the opposite viewpoint.

If you bothered to check out a thread I began earlier this week on the increasing attacks on Christian communities, or the thread on Thinking the Unthinkable on Iran you would see that I'm far from a US basher, Islamist apologist or hidebound leftist ideologue. I fear it's just that you see the World as us or them, with us or against us, black and white. If I'm not a conservative good ol' boy, I must be a blinkered, raging lefty and hence to be dismissed or attacked. Usually the latter.

Show some evidence that you have studied an issue from all sides and then let's debate.
 
When you start attaching, for example, a link to a WSJ article, an NYT article and a Guardian article to illustrate your point, I might start believing you are interested in a thoughtful and balanced view on a subject. Quote Fallaci and Edward Said and I might think you are at least trying to understand the opposite viewpoint.

If you bothered to check out a thread I began earlier this week on the increasing attacks on Christian communities, or the thread on Thinking the Unthinkable on Iran you would see that I'm far from a US basher, Islamist apologist or hidebound leftist ideologue. I fear it's just that you see the World as us or them, with us or against us, black and white. If I'm not a conservative good ol' boy, I must be a blinkered, raging lefty and hence to be dismissed or attacked. Usually the latter.

Show some evidence that you have studied an issue from all sides and then let's debate.

What a waste of time that was!!

Why not read the links and comment on the issues before you start with this juvenile "right wing" nonsense, as though just using the terms qualifies as legitimate debate.
 
Oriana Fallaci - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[.....]
During her 1972 interview with Henry Kissinger, Kissinger agreed that the Vietnam War was a "useless war" and compared himself to "the cowboy who leads the wagon train by riding ahead alone on his horse."[5]
Kissinger later wrote that it was "the single most disastrous conversation I have ever had with any member of the press."[6]


During her 1979 interview with Ayatollah Khomeini, she addressed him as a "tyrant" and managed to unveil herself from the chador:

OF- I still have to ask you a lot of things. About the "chador," for example, which I was obliged to wear to come and interview you, and which you impose on Iranian women. [...] I am not only referring to the dress but to what it represents, I mean the apartheid Iranian women have been forced into after the revolution. They cannot study at the university with men, they cannot work with men, they cannot swim in the sea or in a swimming-pool with men. They have to do everything separately, wearing their "chador." By the way, how can you swim wearing a "chador"?
AK- None of this concerns you, our customs do not concern you. If you don't like the islamic dress you are not obliged to wear it, since it is for young women and respectable ladies.
OF- This is very kind of you, Imam, since you tell me that, I'm going to immediately rid myself of this stupid medieval rag. There !.[7]
[......]
 
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When I read threads like this, I can't help but noticing a contradiction: All the claims that are being made about Muslims, about them destroying the Western World, taking over Europe, strifing to introduce Sharia law and so on, are in crass contrast to my everyday experience with Muslim immigrants here in Berlin (among them a few good friends of mine). In my experience, by far most Muslims here do not stand for all these things they are accused of, but in the contrary, our Western way of life has changed them much, much more than they are attempting to change our society. Muslims in Europe westernize, not the other way round.

Among my friends and acquiantances are half a dozen people who consider themselves Muslims. None, I repeat, NONE of them wants Sharia law, supports terrorism, or any of the other things they are accused of regularly.

When I see the paranoid, delusional, indiscriminate rants against Muslims on this forum, most of them probably by people who have never talked with a Muslim in person, I begin to understand how anti-Semitism in the 1920s and 30s could culminate into the Holocaust, because today, we see the exact same thing, the exact same paranoid, delusional hatred directed against Muslims. Really, change "Jew" for "Muslim" and most of what people write on this forum qualifies as Nazi propaganda.

These rants against Muslims and their alleged agenda of taking over Europe is so delusional and paranoid I suspect it is clinically relevant. I agree with the poster who proposed neuroleptic medication to treat this condition.

What more? A bunch of right-wing extremists slapping each other on their shoulders, confirming each other's serious hate problem -- and all of them making wild accusations and simplifying, paranoid accusations against "the left" which are so ridiculous and lacking substance they could qualify as reality satire.

It's really disgusting.
 
C'mon, that's what your Muslims friends want you to think, obviously they're trying to turn you into a dhimmmmi, I'm sure RoP and some of the other delightful posters on here will link to an opinion piece, dubious study or other piece of quality journalism which shows your Muslim friends are really Osama bin Laden in disguise, and want nothing more than to make you wear a burka.
 
C'mon, that's what your Muslims friends want you to think, obviously they're trying to turn you into a dhimmmmi, I'm sure RoP and some of the other delightful posters on here will link to an opinion piece, dubious study or other piece of quality journalism which shows your Muslim friends are really Osama bin Laden in disguise, and want nothing more than to make you wear a burka.

The two claims by Western Muslim-haters, which are my favorites, are: "Their religion tells them to lie about their true agenda, so of course they will pretend to be peaceful!" and "When they don't want Sharia law and are not evil, then they are not real Muslims".

No joke, some people actually said that. I didn't make that up.

I'm no psychiatrist, but I know for sure that this kind of paranoia and delusion is definitely clinically relevant.
 
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When I read threads like this, I can't help but noticing a contradiction: All the claims that are being made about Muslims, about them destroying the Western World, taking over Europe, strifing to introduce Sharia law and so on, are in crass contrast to my everyday experience with Muslim immigrants here in Berlin (among them a few good friends of mine). In my experience, by far most Muslims here do not stand for all these things they are accused of, but in the contrary, our Western way of life has changed them much, much more than they are attempting to change our society. Muslims in Europe westernize, not the other way round.

Among my friends and acquiantances are half a dozen people who consider themselves Muslims. None, I repeat, NONE of them wants Sharia law, supports terrorism, or any of the other things they are accused of regularly.

When I see the paranoid, delusional, indiscriminate rants against Muslims on this forum, most of them probably by people who have never talked with a Muslim in person, I begin to understand how anti-Semitism in the 1920s and 30s could culminate into the Holocaust, because today, we see the exact same thing, the exact same paranoid, delusional hatred directed against Muslims. Really, change "Jew" for "Muslim" and most of what people write on this forum qualifies as Nazi propaganda.

These rants against Muslims and their alleged agenda of taking over Europe is so delusional and paranoid I suspect it is clinically relevant. I agree with the poster who proposed neuroleptic medication to treat this condition.

What more? A bunch of right-wing extremists slapping each other on their shoulders, confirming each other's serious hate problem -- and all of them making wild accusations and simplifying, paranoid accusations against "the left" which are so ridiculous and lacking substance they could qualify as reality satire.

It's really disgusting.

I agree and there is no evidence to suggest this. Even some salafis who want an Islamic state and refuse to vote in elections, want that islamic State in their country of origin.

However certainly in the Arab world researchers (and I mean good researchers) say that what the people want is an Islamic state. Democracy too but to experiment with an Islamic way of working.

John Keane asks whether the West, the US, UK and Europe will be able to give them the dignity and respect they are due if they have a democratic vote and decide on this.
 
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These rants against Muslims and their alleged agenda of taking over Europe is so delusional and paranoid I suspect it is clinically relevant. I agree with the poster who proposed neuroleptic medication to treat this condition.

Medical treatment for the 'wrong' point of view? Which side of the Iron Curtain did you grow up on German Guy?

If there is an Islamification process, the chief culprits are government ministers. Islamists of whatever degeree (including the 40% or more after Sharia here) just get a smoother ride that's all. They don't need Arab chargers and lances, just loud mouths always open.



Muslims and Islam are not indivisible yet they are joined. The Hadith says "Support your Muslim brother, whether he's an oppressor or is being oppressed…" (Saheeh Al-Bukhaari, Book #43, Hadith #623). But how many Muslims here know that (or at least claim not to)?



Islam is the one-stop shop for religious supremacism and straight Nazi attitudes (if we're invoking Godwin's Law here). Yet not all Muslims follow all the evil as it's not relevant to their lives.

Common sense and human nature can win out at times.



Democracy too [has] but to experiment with an Islamic way of working.

Hence the brutal yet elected Sharia governments in Palestine, Indonesia, Sudan, Syria and all the others we looked at over time.

mosqueerdoganquote1-vi.webp
 
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Hence the brutal yet elected Sharia governments in Palestine, Indonesia, Sudan, Syria and all the others we looked at over time.

Pakistan, Indonesia and Syria do not have elected Sharia governments.

My hope would be that any new democracies would make sure that they have some kind of written constitution whereby they can have periodic elections.

Apart from that do we in the West believe that we should go on a crusade to force others to implement our way of working. We may not like others choices but are we, the West, now the police force of the world, able to deny the vote of others and go to war over their laws.

Is the importance of what we approve of more than the rule of Law.

It should also be noted that not everyone interprets Islamic Law in the way of extremists.

...and why do you think the US allowed Islamic law in the democracy of Iraq?

Edit: eek, just realised I am treading on ME territory. However the point is do we in the west believe that what we find acceptable is more important than the rule of Law which has been freely voted for by the people.
 
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Common sense and human nature can win out at times.


That's exactly my point. And my personal experience with Muslims in Germany suggests that's rather the rule, than the exception.

What's written in Quran or Hadith is not important. You can find justification for violence and oppression in any holy scripture, be that Quran, the Bible, Torah or Book of Mormons, and belief in a supernatural authority is not compatible with enlightened values in general. Important is what the followers of that particular religion do. When Christians are fine people, it doesn't matter what's written in the Bible. When Muslims are fine people, it doesn't matter what's written in Quran.

When I attempted to debate quotes from Quran after having read it with a Muslim, we both found to our surprise that I knew more about the actual content of that book, than the Muslim in question (for him, being Muslim was rather a matter of pure tradition, than a fundamentalist belief).

Is radical Islam and political Islam a problem? Sure. In a poll, 21% of the Muslims in Germany said their belief is not compatible with the Constitution. That's bad. One out of five Muslims apparently does not accept basic Western values. What I'm saying is, we shouldn't forget or ignore the remaining 79% who apparently accept Western values.

As I see it, radical political Islam is a fringe problem in the West, much like neo-Nazism or violent leftisms. A problem that deserves some attention, of course. But nothing we should blow out of proportion by exaggerating it, or by singling out entire ethnic or religious minorities as a whole. Just because neo-Nazism is a problem, that doesn't mean the entire right sympathizes with Nazism and is about taking over. Just because violent leftism is a problem, that doesn't mean the entire left sympathizes with violence and is about taking over. And just because violent islamism is a problem, that doesn't mean all Muslims sympathize with terrorism or Sharia law, and it doesn't mean "they" are taking over. We're talking about extremist fringe nuts here.
 
Medical treatment for the 'wrong' point of view?

No, but for the paranoid misconception that some random group of people are after you to get you, which seems to evoke existential fears in some, although neither their actual numbers in Western countries would allow that, nor does their actual behavior suggest that those among them who cause trouble are anything more than a bunch of fringe nuts.

A delusional feeling of being existentially threatened, or that an ominous conspiracy among a particular group of people is taking over or controlling society, is a common element in the delusions of paranoid schizophrenics.
 
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When I attempted to debate quotes from Quran after having read it with a Muslim, we both found to our surprise that I knew more about the actual content of that book, than the Muslim in question (for him, being Muslim was rather a matter of pure tradition, than a fundamentalist belief).

Either Islam's behind the times (by 1,000 years or so) or you're forced to take it all only spiritually in line with human decency.

That bites at a question Muslims themselves sometimes ask - does Islam need a reform, as Christianity had all through the millennia?



What's written in Quran or Hadith is not important.

Indeed, it's more vital than with any other book. As needs to be repeated, the Koran is the only valid, current holy book where the prophet himself advocated vile evils in the name of God through his own mouth.



A delusional feeling of being existentially threatened, or that an ominous conspiracy among a particular group of people is taking over or controlling society, is a common element in the delusions of paranoid schizophrenics.

Can you name any names?
 
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