Fallaci: "This is what I write about Europe..

[Republic_Of_Public]

I think to call Andalablue an antisemite would be to misjudge him, though he denies the unsavoury nature of the doctrine of the people he sees it as his business to defend.

He thinks the Islamic tradition of persecuting Jews is localised to a few isolated sects of nuts and is too extreme a position to be fostered by 'mainstream' Muslims.

(It's not all that difficult for ignorant people to blame the big bad conspiritorial Jews for things. The more unhinged Left wing rabble-rousers bang on about Isreali 'nazis' all the time. Even Andy's old 'boss' Stalin wanted to launch fierce pogroms in the USSR, with only his death preventing serious plans being drawn up.)

_____________________________

Anti-Jewish hostility, a core component of traditional Islamic doctrine, flourishes. Meanwhile, Muslim spokesmen like to portray their communities as the great injured innocents, who are ruthlessly oppressed, hounded and denied any links to their culture by a whole population of vile white racists:

Muslim views on Jews | www.somethingjewish.co.uk

Muslims feel like 'Jews of Europe' - Home News, UK - The Independent

Who's making Nazi comparisons now, you pathetic, quisling Leftists?

 

[Grant]

I think to call Andalablue an antisemite would be to misjudge him, though he denies the unsavoury nature of the doctrine of the people he sees it as his business to defend.

He thinks the Islamic tradition of persecuting Jews is localised to a few isolated sects of nuts and is too extreme a position to be fostered by 'mainstream' Muslims.

(It's not all that difficult for ignorant people to blame the big bad conspiritorial Jews for things. The more unhinged Left wing rabble-rousers bang on about Isreali 'nazis' all the time. Even Andy's old 'boss' Stalin wanted to launch fierce pogroms in the USSR, with only his death preventing serious plans being drawn up.)

_____________________________

Anti-Jewish hostility, a core component of traditional Islamic doctrine, flourishes. Meanwhile, Muslim spokesmen like to portray their communities as the great injured innocents, who are ruthlessly oppressed, hounded and denied any links to their culture by a whole population of vile white racists:

Muslim views on Jews | www.somethingjewish.co.uk

Muslims feel like 'Jews of Europe' - Home News, UK - The Independent

Who's making Nazi comparisons now, you pathetic, quisling Leftists?

I like this line from one of your articles about hw many Muslims hate Jews.

"Jewish leaders have called for seeking better dialogue with Muslims".

Yes, that should clear things up!!! Why hasn't anyone else thought of that?

LOL!

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

Perhaps you can always trust in the innocence of children:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjbJnZUJTYU"]YouTube- 3 YEAR OLD MUSLIM GIRL YEARNS TO KILL INFIDELS[/ame]


Oh, OK then. "Allah says 'kill the Jews' because one loopy woman tested Muhammad's faith!"

I think we'd best leave 'dialogue' for another day!

 

[Andalublue]

Yep.


Spain is one of, if not the most antisemitic countries in Europe. It's elected leaders are antisemites, its schools indoctrinate children as young as 5 or 6 in antisemitism ( Israel summons Spanish envoy over anti-Semitism in schools - Haaretz - Israel News ), and, of course, has a long history of antisemitism that rivals that of Germany or Russia. Let's not forget its ethnic clensing of Jews 500 years ago when nearly a million were expelled.

Tish. You're trying that old, "say something so extreme you'll rile him up and get him banned" game aren't you?

Now then, you'd better defend that jibe about Spain with one of those "10 Worst Anti-semitic Nations" surveys...or something. Anything that doesn't just fly from your over-active imagination.

Yes, 500 years ago the Catholics monarchs, Fernando and Isabel, at the instigation of the Pope, decided to commit enthusastic ethnic cleansing on the Sephardic Jews and on the Moorish Moslems. It was nasty. They also committed genocide on the Mudejar population that would not be forcibly converted to Catholicism.

Tens of thousands died and even more were expelled. You'll never guess where the Jews found asylum and the freedom to practice their religion unmolested...the Ottoman Empire. Some 80% of Sefardis on leaving Spain chose to live amongst Moslems.

 

[mbig]

Oriana Fallaci on Anti-Semitism
April 12, 2002
I Find it Shameful
Oriana Fallaci on Antisemitism

"I find it shameful that in Italy there should be a procession of individuals dressed as suicide bombers who spew vile abuse at Israel, hold up photographs of Israeli leaders on whose foreheads they have drawn the swasitka, incite people to hate the Jews. And who, in order to see Jews once again in the extermination camps, in the gas chambers, in the ovens of Dachau and Mauthausen and Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen et cetera, would sell their own mother to a harem.
I find it shameful that the Catholic Church should permit a bishop.... to participate in that procession and plant himself in front of a microphone to thank in the name of God the suicide bombers who massacre the Jews in pizzerias and supermarkets. To call them “martyrs who go to their deaths as to a party.”

I find it shameful that in France, the France of Liberty-Equality-Fraternity, they burn synagogues, terrorize Jews, profane their cemeteries. I find it shameful that the youth of Holland and Germany and Denmark flaunt the kaffiah just as Mussolini’s avant garde used to flaunt the club and the fascist badge. I find it shameful that in nearly All the universities of Europe Palestinian Students sponsor and nurture Anti-semitism.
[......]
I find it shameful that many Italians and many Europeans have chosen as their standard-bearer the gentleman (or so it is polite to say) Arafat. This nonentity who thanks to the money of the Saudi Royal Family plays the Mussolini ad perpetuum and in his megalomania believes he will pass into History as the George Washington of Palestine. This ungrammatical Wretch who when I interviewed him was unable even to put together a complete sentence, to make articulate conversation. So that to put it all together, write it, publish it, cost me a tremendous effort and I concluded that compared to him even Ghaddafi sounds like Leonardo da Vinci. This False warrior who always goes around in uniform like Pinochet, never putting on civilian garb, and yet despite this has never participated in a battle. War is something he sends, has always sent, others to do for him. That is, the poor souls who believe in him. This Pompous incompetent who playing the part of Head of State caused the Failure of the Camp David negotiations, Clinton’s mediation.

No-no-I-want-Jerusalem-all-to-myself. This Eternal Liar who has a flash of sincerity only when (in private) he denies Israel’s right to exist, and who as I say in my book contradicts himself every five minutes. He always plays the double-cross, lies even if you ask him what time it is, so that you can never trust him. Never! With him you will always wind up systematically betrayed. This eternal terrorist who knows only how to be a terrorist (while keeping himself safe) and who during the Seventies, that is when I interviewed him, even trained the terrorists of Baader-Meinhof. With them, children ten years of age. Poor children. (Now he trains them to become suicide bombers. A hundred baby suicide bombers are in the works: a hundred!). This weathercock who keeps his wife at Paris, served and revered like a queen, and keeps his people down in the ****. He takes them out of the **** only to send them to die, to kill and to die, like the 18 year old girls who in order to earn equality with men have to strap on explosives and disintegrate with their victims. And yet many Italians love him, yes. Just like they loved Mussolini. And many other Europeans do the same.

I find it shameful and see in all this the rise of a new fascism, a new nazism. A fascism, a nazism, that much more grim and revolting because it is conducted and nourished by those who hypocritically pose as do-gooders, progressives, Communists, pacifists, Catholics or rather Christians, and who have the gall to label a warmonger anyone like me who screams the truth....."

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

I received this message in my inbox from Youtube just this minute:


Ignozi has replied to your comment on FOXNews: The Islamification of Europe:

You know, the truth is a bitter pill to swallow and the Muslim protesters threatening Mr. Wilders' life are not very fond of the taste.


That just about sums it up on the subject of both Leftists and seemingly most Muslims. Much better for them to project their own collective failings and vices onto those who blow the whistle.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

However, you can't expect much if even police forces feel obliged to dress as the Muslims do to avoid 'intimidating' them:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...rs-wearing-hijab-future-liberal-policies.html


Experiments have also occurred in London. This goes way way further than the usual concessions for religious reasons, for example Sikhs being allowed to wear a turban instead of a helmet.

They're not supposed to allow pork on the menu (even if taken on as cooks), they're not supposed to guard the Israeli Embassy, they're not supposed to put in the same hours as everyone else as they have to toddle off to the mosque every 5 minutes, etc, etc.

Makes you wonder who's being 'sensitive' and who's being put under the thumb.
_________________________________________________

Have some educational videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/europesslowdeath

 

[Alvin T. Grey]

Experiments have also occurred in London. This goes way way further than the usual concessions for religious reasons, for example Sikhs being allowed to wear a turban instead of a helmet.

In what way is it any different from wearing a turban? Please explain.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

Re-read the post. All the Sikhs wanted, by and large, was the turban and not to get the p*** taken out of them for them to be happy.

 

[Alvin T. Grey]

Sorry I'm confused? I see no difference between a Hijab and a Turban.

As far as I'm concerned neither head covering should have been allowed as it was not part of the uniform, but that genie is out of the bottle. So I can't see the point.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

There have been a lot of things, like Urdu classes, which police were told they had to indulge in for purposes of 'community relations'. As if these communities wouldn't co-operate with police if cops, in some way, didn't act like them. (And with Muslims there has been a whole heap of fussing and non-cooperation.)

I agree that neither Sikhs or Muslims should be pandered to in that way. But my point was that until all this Islamic extremism trouble kicked off, there were comparitively few demands to comprehensively change the culture to suit Islamic sensibilities. And the blame for acquiesing lies firmly with cop bosses and politicians.

 

[Grant]

In what way is it any different from wearing a turban? Please explain.

A Turban is worn by men and among the Sikhs represents honour, self-respect, courage, spirituality, and piety.

A Hijab. on the other hand, is a symbol of modesty, some say oppression.

The Quran states - "believing women should lower their
gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty
and adornments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they
should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty
except to their husbands, their fathers...(a list of exceptions)"
[Chapter 24, verses 30-31] Also, "O Prophet! Tell thy wives and
daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer
garments over their persons...that they should be known and not
molested." [Chapter 33, verse 59] "

So, as we can see, the Turban is a symbol of pride and the other is to keep the charms of women hidden from everyone but their husbands and, for some odd reason, their fathers. It is, quite clearly, a symbol of male dominance.

 

[Alvin T. Grey]

A Turban is worn by men and among the Sikhs represents honour, self-respect, courage, spirituality, and piety.

A Hijab. on the other hand, is a symbol of modesty, some say oppression.

The Quran states - "believing women should lower their
gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty
and adornments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they
should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty
except to their husbands, their fathers...(a list of exceptions)"
[Chapter 24, verses 30-31] Also, "O Prophet! Tell thy wives and
daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer
garments over their persons...that they should be known and not
molested." [Chapter 33, verse 59] "

So, as we can see, the Turban is a symbol of pride and the other is to keep the charms of women hidden from everyone but their husbands and, for some odd reason, their fathers. It is, quite clearly, a symbol of male dominance.

You really don't know what a Hajib is do you?

 

[Andalublue]

You really don't know what a Hajib is do you?

No, he doesn't. And furthermore, if he sees it as a sign of the oppression of women, why no mention of the custom amongst Catholic and Orthodox societies (not as widespread as it was, but still obvious where I live) to enforce the wearing of black for widows, irrespective of age, so that they can no longer be available to marry?

Or, the shaving of the head and wearing of wigs amongst Hassidic Jewish women?

It's because he wants to see Islam as uniquely repressive. In many respects orthodox Islam IS repressive of women's rights, but that is neither universal across Islam nor is it unique to it.

The problem with these people is that they don't just SEE a clash of civilisations, they WANT it and they NEED it to justify their own aggression.

 

[Grant]

You really don't know what a Hajib is do you?

Accorsing to Wiki "A hajib from Arabic الحاجب was a government official in Al-Andalus (Spain) and Egypt. They began as Chamberlains but by 756 had evolved to be equivalent to a vizier".

Are you referring to a Hijab or a Hajib?

 

[Grant]

"The problem with these people is that they don't just SEE a clash of civilisations, they WANT it and they NEED it to justify their own aggression".

I want and need Islamic aggression? Whatever for?

You still don't know who the real aggressors are, do you, or who the losers will be.

Alpine Jihad: Libya's Gadhafi Declares Holy War Against Switzerland - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj29Df-fy5M&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube- Obama Must Convert To Islam, Or Else.....[/ame]

And yet you feel I'm the threat!

Incredible!

 

[Alvin T. Grey]

You really don't know what a Hajib is do you?

When ****ed for an answer, argue the spelling of a dyslexic.
Nice gambit.

Now please answer the question.

 

[Andalublue]

When ****ed for an answer, argue the spelling of a dyslexic.
Nice gambit.

Now please answer the question.

Alvin, I admire your persistence, but I think Grant is a closed book. He has no debating skills and hint of an open mind with which to consider an opinion that he doesn't already hold.

I've had him on my ignore list for a while now. That takes it to 3! Can you guess the other 2?

 

[Grant]

When ****ed for an answer, argue the spelling of a dyslexic.
Nice gambit.

Now please answer the question.

My answer was yes.

 

[Alvin T. Grey]

My answer was yes.

Obviously you dont. The Hijab is a covering for the head, or more correctly the hair.

The turban or Dastar is a likewise religious covering worn on the head.

Neither are manditory, and neither are part of the original uniform of the Police.

What most people think of a Hijab is in fact a Hijab worn with a jilbāb

 

[Grant]

Obviously you dont. The Hijab is a covering for the head, or more correctly the hair.

The turban or Dastar is a likewise religious covering worn on the head.

Neither are manditory, and neither are part of the original uniform of the Police.

What most people think of a Hijab is in fact a Hijab worn with a jilbāb

Well, how about that!

 

[Arcana XV]

No, he doesn't. And furthermore, if he sees it as a sign of the oppression of women, why no mention of the custom amongst Catholic and Orthodox societies (not as widespread as it was, but still obvious where I live) to enforce the wearing of black for widows, irrespective of age, so that they can no longer be available to marry?

Or, the shaving of the head and wearing of wigs amongst Hassidic Jewish women?

It's because he wants to see Islam as uniquely repressive. In many respects orthodox Islam IS repressive of women's rights, but that is neither universal across Islam nor is it unique to it.

The problem with these people is that they don't just SEE a clash of civilisations, they WANT it and they NEED it to justify their own aggression.

I've had this conversation with him and as soon as I brought up the Hassidic Jewish women's custom of shaving their hair (which I personlly think is a lot more traumatic to a young woman than simply covering your hair with a piece of fabric) he started dodging like the pro he is.

Islam is in the spotlight right now, it's very fashionable in some circles to be as critical and unforgiving of some of the more extreme sects as possible. It's also short-sighted and lazy, but that won't stop any of them from mindlessly repeating their mantras.

Is hijab sometimes forced on women through a patriarchal, oppressive form of Islam? There is no doubt about that.

Do Muslim women sometimes wear hijab out of their own free will as an expression of their spirituality and devotion to their faith? There is no doubt about that either.

For some reason, it's more fashionable to talk about the former rather than the latter, even though in most Western countries the second scenario is the most common. :shrug:

 

[Andalublue]

I've had this conversation with him and as soon as I brought up the Hassidic Jewish women's custom of shaving their hair (which I personlly think is a lot more traumatic to a young woman than simply covering your hair with a piece of fabric) he started dodging like the pro he is.

Islam is in the spotlight right now, it's very fashionable in some circles to be as critical and unforgiving of some of the more extreme sects as possible. It's also short-sighted and lazy, but that won't stop any of them from mindlessly repeating their mantras.

Is hijab sometimes forced on women through a patriarchal, oppressive form of Islam? There is no doubt about that.

Do Muslim women sometimes wear hijab out of their own free will as an expression of their spirituality and devotion to their faith? There is no doubt about that either.

For some reason, it's more fashionable to talk about the former rather than the latter, even though in most Western countries the second scenario is the most common. :shrug:

I fear your excellent analysis is a little too nuanced for our friend Grant. The Hassidic argument is also such a clear parallel that many of these Islamophobes (although I don't recall Grant himself having used this) resort to claiming anti-semitism, forgetting that Arabs are semites too.

I think it is a part of the whole neo-con mindset to insist on clear-cut, black and white, good and evil division of the World.

I applaud your reason and your patience!

 

[Grant]

Islam is in the spotlight right now, it's very fashionable in some circles to be as critical and unforgiving of some of the more extreme sects as possible.

I have been somewhat critical of some the extreme sects, Arcana, and perhaps, like a good European, I should temper my criticisms.

I do tend to overreact a little when I see stories like this though.

BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue

As others on this thread are more knowledgeable than me about appropriate Muslim head dress maybe you can point out which headgear these little girls should have been wearing.

Muslim girl who clashed with strict family killed - World - smh.com.au

Violations of 'Islamic teachings' take deadly toll on Iraqi women - CNN.com

Perhaps you Europeans, far more familiar with Muslim dress codes than I, can explain why these women were killed. Are their government programs over there now instructing you as to what the right head gear might be?

It might be wise for the lot of you, men and women alike, to start wearing coverings over your heads. You certainly don't want to offend any of your new neighbours.

 

[Arcana XV]

Anyone with an ouce of compassion would be utterly revolted at some of the things human beings do to each other, Grant.

It's okay to feel outrage when reading stories such as the ones you posted. I feel it too. The only difference is that I don't take one sensationalist story and apply it across the board and I certainly don't use it to feed the mounting anti-muslim paranoia. It reminds me too much of the days when the people behind the iron curtain supposedly were the evil, soul-less monsters bent on killing us all. It was retarded then and it's just as retarded now.

You of all people know how much the media likes to sensationalize things. Terrible things are committed by Muslim men (and women) in the name of tradition, religion and some sense of misplaced honor, I don't think anyone will dispute that. These terrible things make the headlines, just as surely as any other human tragedy that may or may not involve Muslims does.

I don't see any more violence committed by Muslims against their children or wives than by other demographics. The difference is not in the number of aggressions or murders, but in the reasons they resort to violence. Those reasons are certainly worthy of debate and criticism. I'm all for debating those reasons. What I will not do is live in fear of the mythical Big Bad Muslim, just like I don't live in fear that every man I see on the street will assault and rape me. I'm not that vulnerable to the media's eye-catching headlines.