Fair Means Equal

[Grizzly Adams]

lol, well I know that you guys are living in an alternative universe when upper quintiles have a lower rate....and the "poof".....the same nominal amount is collected as revenue.

I never said a word about the amount collected. I simply said a flat tax is neither progressive nor regressive by definition, as everyone pays the same rate.

 

[Deuce]

good, sounds like you will join me in demanding affirmative action be scrapped

So your response is to dodge with a non-sequitur. Ok buddy.

 

[Ug make hammer]

I pay more than that a quarter. No I attended private grade and secondary schools, private undergraduate and law school but my graduate degree was a mixed one-part of a private university with lots of state funding. so your commands to me are bullshit and have no merit.

What demands? I said IF, and you claimed that no government money was spent on your school education (or I hope you did, private schools do sometimes get government money, eg charter schools). Giving you the benefit of the doubt, you DON"T owe $180 K to the government.

However, you say you got a law degree with "part" government funding. That's a pricey degree, and you said "lots" of the cost was public. So we could be talking $100 K that YOU OWE.

You've made it plain that you don't want to pay any taxes, and it could be reasonable inferred that other than sales tax and maybe petrol tax, you haven't actually paid any taxes.

You don't have to disclose anything more. You can just leave it there. But you'll have all the credibility of Donald Trump refusing to disclose because "I paid plenty of tax, believe me."

 

[Ug make hammer]

you are talking about a minuscule problem that is so rare as to not be statistically relevant

You kick half the population out of your gated communities to settle scores their own way, it WON'T be a miniscule problem you'll have. It will be rockets and mortars, from these people who have reason enough to want you dead.

 

[Ug make hammer]

I never said a word about the amount collected. I simply said a flat tax is neither progressive nor regressive by definition, as everyone pays the same rate.

There's probably some other word besides "flat" to express how flat taxes affect the poor the worst.

I'm not proposing the word. But I will throw out "marginal utility" as a relevant concept. The rich do without new yachts, the poor do without new shoes. This makes the rich less unhappy, than it does the poor.

On my prescriptions, it says the full price even though my insurance covers most of it. I can't say it affects me that much, though it does guide me to get generics where possible. Maybe something like that for the poor who don't (and won't) have to pay income tax. "Here but for the grace of Tax Credits, is what you'd have to pay in Taxes." A few of them might even be led by "I don't take charity" to voluntarily pay those taxes.

I suspect there are millions of Americans who are eligible for benefits, but never apply. Taking a hand-out when you don't desperately need it, feels pretty bad. Someone else should have it. So my last whacky idea for this post: perhaps allow those who are eligible but don't claim, to nominate some other individual or program to receive the money?

 

[OpportunityCost]

OK I will play along-so what is your solution. we hear that places like walmart show up in an area-drive out smaller businesses and take the profits out of town. what is your solution?

Simply, we need to find a way to peg profit to worker pay, they certainly do it for the CEOs. Those CEOs can't be the only reason companies are successful---workers are part of that success and should share in it.

 

[Ug make hammer]

good, sounds like you will join me in demanding affirmative action be scrapped

You can't utterly concede one argument, (and a broad strategic one at that) only in exchange for agreement on a barely existent argument about affirmative action.

Were you a victim of affirmative action? Did you not quite make Harvard (or wherever) despite the advantages of your private K-12 school, and probably tutors when you needed them? And there must be someone to blame for that, some black or NA student who "took your place" by having more talent and working harder, to overcome their lesser school? Oh poor you. How dare colleges not fairly reward privilege!?

You lost on Democrats deliberately keeping black people poor. You lost the most dumb and predictable way possible: the only way black people would be complicit in that is if they were dumb. Just admit for once, you lost. This little move-the-goalposts thing, is NOT going to work after you've been scored on.

BTW, your poor grasp of logic makes it almost inconceivable to me that you really have studied law. Law is pretty hard that way. And if you did use up public money but DIDN'T graduate, I think we should mark up the money you owe the government ... that government you pretend you could do without. At least people on welfare buy food and clothing, and that flow of money contributes to the economy. Taking a course and failing it, contributes to nothing.

 

[calamity]

yet more lies from the source of some of the most mendacious posts in the history of DP

The source is you. The racist posts were written by you.

 

[Kushinator]

You've apparently never studied math. Flat tax means equal percentage. The wealthy pay the same percentage but a greater number of actual dollars. That is not regressive, and there is no greater burden on lower incomes.

A flat tax will reduce consumption and savings of lower income households. Higher income households will not consume more due to their tax cut (savings will increase).

You don't understand why... which is why you confuse basic arithmetic with microeconomic analysis.

 

[jonny5]

As I've been saying, payroll taxes (FICA) are the worst enemy of progressive income taxes. However, there's obviously a lot of scope to increase corporate taxes.

Actually making corporations pay the taxes; whole other matter. As it is currently, corporations only pay if (a) they're small, or (b) paying taxes suits their corporate image. They will still have the option to pull most of their operations under cover and leave their retail branch to pay taxes and impress the public.

It does look like I was wrong about making everyone pay income tax, just by removing FICA. The lowest quintile would still be recipients rather than payers.

Corporations just defacto pass the taxes on anyway. Literally every cent they pay in taxes has to be collected from revenue. If we increase corporate taxes, they have to either take less profit, raise prices, sell more, cut spending, jobs, wages, etc.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

A flat tax will reduce consumption and savings of lower income households. Higher income households will not consume more due to their tax cut (savings will increase).

You don't understand why... which is why you confuse basic arithmetic with microeconomic analysis.

Nothing you just said makes a flat tax actually regressive.

 

[Kushinator]

Nothing you just said makes a flat tax actually regressive.

Wrong. What is being taxed was formerly going toward consumption. As a direct result of a flat tax, standard of living for those with low savings rates (lower income) is reduced.

Hence, it is a regressive tax. Furthermore, it's just stupid economic policy that reduces everyone's standard of living.

At the end of the day, a tax policy that reduces overall economic activity will be reflected in the earnings of private industry, of which is primarily owned by high-income / high-wealth households and organizations. There is hope for you however!!! If you are in favor of a flat tax, move to Russia.

 

[jonny5]

Simply, we need to find a way to peg profit to worker pay, they certainly do it for the CEOs. Those CEOs can't be the only reason companies are successful---workers are part of that success and should share in it.

Whats stopping you from doing that at the company you own? Have at it. Other companies, thats between them and their employees. Employees are free to demand it or not. Employers are free to reject it or not. And should be.

 

[calamity]

Simply, we need to find a way to peg profit to worker pay, ...

Virtually every company I've worked for does that for salaried employees via bonuses. Hourly workers choose to take their money up front. The rest of us gamble on the success we can bring to the organization.

As it has always been.

 

[Individual]

Simply, we need to find a way to peg profit to worker pay, they certainly do it for the CEOs. Those CEOs can't be the only reason companies are successful---workers are part of that success and should share in it.

Could pay ALL employees in stock shares.
Automation probably contributes more than employees to many companies success.
Should losses be pegged to worker pay as well?

 

[TurtleDude]

The source is you. The racist posts were written by you.

your interpretation of what others say is invariably dishonest

 

[ecofarm]

The funny thing is those confusing equal opportunity and equal treatment before the law with equal outcome are always those who would benefit from being considered average. The equal outcome thing would be a dream come true for them.

 

[ecofarm]

I would venture to claim that at no place are unequal outcomes more apparent than a debate forum. Herein the lows and highs of intellectual existence. The orcs and the elves.

 

[calamity]

your interpretation of what others say is invariably dishonest

Squealing about me will never erase your deplorably racist posts. Clearly, you have a long history of making racist comments.

 

[TurtleDude]

Squealing about me will never erase your deplorably racist posts. Clearly, you have a long history of making racist comments.

your posts have a long tradition of lying about others, trolling the board and engaging in clearly mendacious accusations.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

I never said a word about the amount collected.

You keep avoiding it, you can't explain how you will be able to collect the same level of revenue while lowering rates on upper quintiles.

I simply said a flat tax is neither progressive nor regressive by definition, as everyone pays the same rate.

Ignores that lowering a rate on upper incomes requires lower quintiles to pay more, then claims the change is not regressive.

It is just dishonest, bad faith argument that refuse to face the consequences of his proposal, while refusing to detail his argument.

 

[TurtleDude]

You keep avoiding it, you can't explain how you will be able to collect the same level of revenue while lowering rates on upper quintiles.


Ignores that lowering a rate on upper incomes requires lower quintiles to pay more, then claims the change is not regressive.

It is just dishonest, bad faith argument that refuse to face the consequences of his proposal, while refusing to detail his argument.

how did lowering the tax rate on the most productive tax payers hike the tax rate on the least productive (non) tax payers?

 

[Gimmesometruth]

how did lowering the tax rate on the most productive tax payers hike the tax rate on the least productive (non) tax payers?

dude that posts racist screeds, if you are confused by the concept of lower rates causing less revenue, try this.......SHOW YOUR FLAT TAX PROPOSAL.

 

[calamity]

your posts have a long tradition of lying about others, trolling the board and engaging in clearly mendacious accusations.

My post copied and pasted your racist words verbatim. I do appreciate you running away from your own words though...more than you would ever know.

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

Don't listen to what they say...look at what they do.

Anyway, if any politician...whether Dem or Rep...really cared about "fair" regarding taxation they would get rid of every single loophole, deduction, credit, etc., in the tax code and replace it with a simple, progressive tax rate. A very low rate for low income graduating to a higher rate for higher income. That would be "fair".

But that will never happen. Politicians don't care about "fair". They care about their donors and lobbyists.

Don't listen to what they say...look at what they do.

I would get rid of all the loopholes, however I would also ditch the progressive tax system which is also unfair. Other then exempting those under the poverty level from paying taxes, all taxes should be based on a set percentage of income. The same percentage should apply to all taxpayers. We need to stop punishing wealth. Going to a flat tax system would also make income taxes much more transparent.