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Excellent column on Sanders for VP

Since you seem to know everything, tell me how making it easier for Trump to win advances your cause? It certainly did not advance Nader's causes when his candidacy was blamed for Bush's win in 2000. In fact it set the progressive movement back considerably. Is that what you are going for also or do you just not give a damn?
What lost 2k for Gore was his failure to win his home state. Nader had nothing to do with that, nor did Gore have any claim to the votes Nader garnered in Florida. Gore failed to persuade those people that he deserved their vote, just as he failed to sway the people who voted for Bush.
 
Perhaps it is time for a Republican, Democrat and Socialist party. Countries much smaller than ours have broadened their choices, while we seem to be stuck with the 2 party nonsense. I know, we do have some other occasional noise makers, but non that have enough impact to make a difference in this 2 party, back and forth, power grab.

Agreed but that never happens from the top.
A new political party has to be BUILT, with a lot of hard work, from the bottom up.
And the problem with that is, many prefer to REMAKE an EXISTING party over instead and GUESS WHAT!!!
That JUST happened!! :D

Yeah sure, it just happened to the Republicans, and it's a major disaster but you cannot argue the fact that the Koch-topus and the Tea Party DID remake the GOP.
You can argue that they made a monster, you can argue that they did it wrong but the fact is, they did it.
They RE-MADE the Republican Party just as surely as a parasite takes over a host body and the really scary part is?????????

They did it using an old tool that we liberals THREW AWAY forty years ago....Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals.
We've been getting beat upside the head with our own best tool all this time.

Dick Armey handed out copies to EVERYONE who worked at FreedomWorks and demanded they memorize it.
So just consider the fact that if there is ONE thing Bernie's supporters CAN DO, it's that they can REMAKE the Democratic Party.
If you want the Dems to better represent true liberalism, I say that is going to be the most effective way to do it.

Just my $0.02 ;)
 
If Sanders returns to the Senate, he will not be returning as the same man he was before he announced.
Love him or hate him, the man has forever changed American politics at all levels.
He certainly won't be the same type of senator he was before, an independent Vermont gadfly who caucuses with the Democratic minority; that is true. But how he handles the end game of this primary and general election season will determine how much real power he will have in the Senate if he doesn't take a possible VP offer. If seen as a spoiler by his Democratic colleagues, he may find himself isolated in the Senate. Warren could then step in as his progressive heir and possibly ignite a contentious battle for leadership. Or it could be 1972 all over again when the crushing defeat of progressive George McGovern set the stage for some of the very Third Way centrist Democratic Party reforms that Sanders and Company rail against now.

On the other hand, if he makes good on his oft stated pledge to do everything possible to help the Democratic nominee beat Donald Trump, and Hillary still loses, then Sanders returns to the Senate with a lot of party goodwill and a working coalition of establishment progressive party leaders and, most likely, a boatload of party rule reforms that Hillary will most certainly approve of to get his enthusiastic convention endorsement and/or VP nomination.

He should take latter course to get control of the Democratic Party once and for all for progressives. That will require compromise, something Warren is willing to do. Can Sanders make that move from outsider to insider? I don't know. There are Bernie and Busters who simply want to destroy the Democratic Party and hope the Republicans do the same to their own so that America enters into a new uncharted era of decentralized politics. That won't happen, especially if Trump wins and appoints the kind of Supreme Court justices he just announced who would protect Citizen United corporate political donations for a generation or beyond. Then Sanders and the progressives would be far worse off than they could possibly imagine now.
 
DWS is toast, they just can't switch horses mid stream because it would serve as a signal that the party is failing.
Yeah, America is shifting to the Left. Considering that we're thirty steps to the right of GENGHIS KHAN right now, that would put us roughly in the center, wow....big left shift you got there LOL.
Meanwhile the rest of the world MIGHT decide that we're just conservative instead of extreme fascist, because as far as they are concerned our "center" is still very much to the right.

In any other country Sanders would still be considered somewhat conservative.
It's important to remember that America doesn't exist in a vacuum. ;)

That's not exactly a fair point, but contextually it is a point worth making. Sanders is a socialist, but his stated presidential policies are Social Democratic policies, not democratic socialist. The reason for this is fairly obvious, which is that he's pushing what he thinks that the American people are ready for and will be willing to fight for. The most important, and I agree with him, are that we need to be fighting for education, healthcare, and democracy to begin combating income inequality with some level of class consciousness. Those are at the top of the list. The things that I listed elsewhere (I can't remember the thread, but it includes putting unions in partial control of all corporations, and having government incentivizes for worker collectives --now Europe is to the Left, they aren't that far to the Left; though Jeremy Corbyn maybe) are all things that Sanders has explicitly stated in the past he agrees with and would, one day, hope the country can work towards. But right now, 20% of the country is to the Right of Ghengis Khan (Khan outlawed and condemned torture, but that's namby-pamby Communism as far as the modern Right is concerned), so you work with what you've got.

That also being said, the US is firmly and loudly supportive of Social Democratic principles, and Millennials are on the cusp of Social Democrat and Democratic Socialist, proper. 50% of US Millennials are anti-capitalists, some 30% are socialists, and 6% refer to themselves as Communists. So conservatives are one group, but voting-age Millennials are 40 million Americans. So it seems like it won't be Sanders, but there will be a Reagan/FDR-level change in the country to restore and expand the New Deal, and start having discussions about what kind of a country we want moving forward. It's literally just a matter of time.
 
He certainly won't be the same type of senator he was before, an independent Vermont gadfly who caucuses with the Democratic minority; that is true. But how he handles the end game of this primary and general election season will determine how much real power he will have in the Senate if he doesn't take a possible VP offer. If seen as a spoiler by his Democratic colleagues, he may find himself isolated in the Senate. Warren could then step in as his progressive heir and possibly ignite a contentious battle for leadership. Or it could be 1972 all over again when the crushing defeat of progressive George McGovern set the stage for some of the very Third Way centrist Democratic Party reforms that Sanders and Company rail against now.

On the other hand, if he makes good on his oft stated pledge to do everything possible to help the Democratic nominee beat Donald Trump, and Hillary still loses, then Sanders returns to the Senate with a lot of party goodwill and a working coalition of establishment progressive party leaders and, most likely, a boatload of party rule reforms that Hillary will most certainly approve of to get his enthusiastic convention endorsement and/or VP nomination.

He should take latter course to get control of the Democratic Party once and for all for progressives. That will require compromise, something Warren is willing to do. Can Sanders make that move from outsider to insider? I don't know. There are Bernie and Busters who simply want to destroy the Democratic Party and hope the Republicans do the same to their own so that America enters into a new uncharted era of decentralized politics. That won't happen, especially if Trump wins and appoints the kind of Supreme Court justices he just announced who would protect Citizen United corporate political donations for a generation or beyond. Then Sanders and the progressives would be far worse off than they could possibly imagine now.

On these points I find I have to agree with you wholeheartedly. That IS our "homework assignment" in the coming months but for now, primary season AIN'T OVER YET so may the best "man" win. Fat lady ain't sung yet.
As far as the immature crybabies, there's an equal amount on both sides of the Democratic Party, so I have been studiously ignoring their drama up till recently for the simple reason that it distracts from the platform ISSUES.

I find that I have to agree with you with one small difference. I have faith that Sanders is a pragmatic man.
I also happen to think that Sanders is equally aware of the dangers of a Trump presidency.
Trump won't just be the "next Republican president". He may just be the LAST president, at least in the United States of America as we know it.

Cheers, mate ;)
 
On these points I find I have to agree with you wholeheartedly. That IS our "homework assignment" in the coming months but for now, primary season AIN'T OVER YET so may the best "man" win. Fat lady ain't sung yet.
As far as the immature crybabies, there's an equal amount on both sides of the Democratic Party, so I have been studiously ignoring their drama up till recently for the simple reason that it distracts from the platform ISSUES.

I find that I have to agree with you with one small difference. I have faith that Sanders is a pragmatic man.
I also happen to think that Sanders is equally aware of the dangers of a Trump presidency.
Trump won't just be the "next Republican president". He may just be the LAST president, at least in the United States of America as we know it.

Cheers, mate ;)
And that's exactly why the "principled" Sanders supporters will dutifully do what they're told and be HRCs "hey boys". You're seeing the same thing on the Pub side with the RNC establishment eating crow, it's just much more satisfying to see political insiders laid low.
 
Think very carefully about how large the Bernie wing of the party really is :D
Clinton cannot afford to throw that many people under the bus.

I posted a comparison of their platforms and as similar as they are there is no one being thrown under any bus. Neither of those platforms mean a darn unless the candidate wins. Winning is what all Democrats should be concerned with and not just the Whitehouse. A united stance will be the best way to regain Congressional majorities and if that means Sanders supporting Hillary or vice versa that is what needs to be done. Infighting is self-destructive, especially when so much is at stake. We can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I will suport whomever is the nominee of the party because i have much more in common with either candidates platform than I have with Trumps. It is really that simple.
 
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I posted a comparison of their platforms and as similar as they are there is no one being thrown under any bus. Neither of those platforms mean a darn unless the candidate wins. Winning is what all Democrats should be concerned with and not just the Whitehouse. A united stance will be the best way to regain majorities.

Oh no argument from me there!
I'm sure I will be treated to more internet lynchings because I'm being pragmatic but that's who I am.
Even if I wasn't pragmatic by nature, I have to be pragmatic by choice because I am not young enough or single enough to just pack my sh!t and run to some island if America becomes the Fourth Reich.

I don't have the luxury of standing atop my lofty principles like some Joan of Arc.
I have DEPENDENTS and loved ones to consider.
 
On these points I find I have to agree with you wholeheartedly. That IS our "homework assignment" in the coming months but for now, primary season AIN'T OVER YET so may the best "man" win. Fat lady ain't sung yet.
As far as the immature crybabies, there's an equal amount on both sides of the Democratic Party, so I have been studiously ignoring their drama up till recently for the simple reason that it distracts from the platform ISSUES.

I find that I have to agree with you with one small difference. I have faith that Sanders is a pragmatic man.
I also happen to think that Sanders is equally aware of the dangers of a Trump presidency.
Trump won't just be the "next Republican president". He may just be the LAST president, at least in the United States of America as we know it.

Cheers, mate ;)
The primary season may not be over, but the nomination is. Without help from a Greek god or two, Bernie will concede the primary race sometime before or during the convention. And in the very unlikely event that Bernie gets some celestial assistance in the form of a 30+ point blowout win in California, FBI indictment, and/or life threatening/ending event, then Bernie still has to deal with the Republican Party, an increasingly unified entity that hasn't spent a single dime in negative campaign ads against Bernie to date. No, the fat lady is singing to herself, quietly and patiently. But if keeping hope alive keeps the Sanders crowds large, engaged, and forthcoming with their average $27 donations, then I see no reason to move the fat lady on stage anytime soon.

I do believe as you do that Sanders is a pragmatic man. Bloomberg.com has an article about behind the scenes efforts by Bernie and his people to contact major Democratic Party leaders reassuring them of his commitment to help defeat Trump. Talking Points Memo comments on that article today. The question remains, will Sanders be able to play this dangerous game of stoking the fire publicly while tamping it down privately without doing irreparable harm to Hillary. Can he ride that tiger successfully? It's fascinating and unnerving to watch.
 
If what Trump wants worries you so, then by all means choose the lesser of two evils. However, people of conscience vote for their beliefs rather than reacting to someone else's. Many on the left detest HRC, and state they won't vote for her. Personally, I don't think the numbers who will actually follow through are significant to affect the election one way or the other. You always have the supporters of the also-rans seething that they lost, but they'll hold hands and sing Kumbaya at the convention, and dutifully vote "correctly" in November. Sure, they'll be a few principled people, but they are always a tiny minority and they are always cajoled and pressured my the majority so that their numbers shrink even more. Lather, rinse, repeat.

And that is why the staus quo stays the status quo.

So which of the beliefs that I posted about Hilary do you disagree with so much that you cannot vote for her? Here they are again...

bi_graphics_hillary-clinton-vs-bernie-sanders_updated.png
 
And that's exactly why the "principled" Sanders supporters will dutifully do what they're told and be HRCs "hey boys". You're seeing the same thing on the Pub side with the RNC establishment eating crow, it's just much more satisfying to see political insiders laid low.
I'm glad that you're satisfied. At least somebody is getting personal enjoyment from this political season. If Trump should win the presidency, and he appoints the Scalia clones he listed recently to the Supreme Court, then I hope you find satisfaction in the erosion of Roe v. Wade and keeping Citizens United the law of the land for a generation or more. I can assure you that most of us won't.
 
The primary season may not be over, but the nomination is. Without help from a Greek god or two, Bernie will concede the primary race sometime before or during the convention. And in the very unlikely event that Bernie gets some celestial assistance in the form of a 30+ point blowout win in California, FBI indictment, and/or life threatening/ending event, then Bernie still has to deal with the Republican Party, an increasingly unified entity that hasn't spent a single dime in negative campaign ads against Bernie to date. No, the fat lady is singing to herself, quietly and patiently. But if keeping hope alive keeps the Sanders crowds large, engaged, and forthcoming with their average $27 donations, then I see no reason to move the fat lady on stage anytime soon.

I do believe as you do that Sanders is a pragmatic man. Bloomberg.com has an article about behind the scenes efforts by Bernie and his people to contact major Democratic Party leaders reassuring them of his commitment to help defeat Trump. Talking Points Memo comments on that article today. The question remains, will Sanders be able to play this dangerous game of stoking the fire publicly while tamping it down privately without doing irreparable harm to Hillary. Can he ride that tiger successfully? It's fascinating and unnerving to watch.

I am only going to lift your reference to the Republicans out of the above....for the moment.
It is well past time Democrats, and liberals of ALL STRIPES, met this so called radioactive red baiting boogeyman HEAD ON.
We should have done it years ago.

FDR, Truman, Ike, JFK, LBJ, Carter, Clinton and Obama were ALL called socialists and communists by the Republicans.
That's eight presidents over three generations.

Boy.
Who.
Cried.
Wolf.

I think America has had just about enough of the dog whistles and the boogeymen being waved over our heads.
No matter who wins this election, I think our other big homework assignment is to drive a very large and very shiny stake right through the heart of this demon in a way so stark, so profound and so stunning that they won't dare to bring it up again, ever.
They've been cashing in on way too many frequent flyer miles by resorting to yelling "OMG TEH SOCIALISMZ!!!!"
 
Everything we feared about Communism, that we would lose our homes and savings, and be forced to toil endlessly for meager wages with no voice in the system, has already happened under REPUBLICANS.
 
Warren could then step in as his progressive heir and possibly ignite a contentious battle for leadership. Or it could be 1972 all over again when the crushing defeat of progressive George McGovern set the stage for some of the very Third Way centrist Democratic Party reforms that Sanders and Company rail against now.

It's a point worth raising and discussing, but ultimately it just won't happen like McGovern. The country is different, and in ways that couldn't make us more different than 1970. Then, Gen X (which is one of the most conservative generations in their youth ever, even more pro-conservative than the Silent Generation was when they were young) combined with the then very conservative Silent Generation, and the aging Boomers had began to settle down and were naturally slightly more conservative. That meant (very unfortunately) that there just wasn't going to be sizeable demographic to support the New Deal established order politics. And so it's not surprising that Neoliberalism then became the established-order political philosophy.

In 2016, we have the literal opposite phenomena, and actually even stronger. The Silent Generation is now dying off, Boomers are contain a larger and more vocally left-wing (or at least sympathetic to left-wing politics), Gen X'ers have started to become a little skeptical of Reaganomics, and Millennials are off the charts Left-wing. Further more, we have some polling on the "iPad generation"/Generation Z, and they are just as off the charts Left-wing because they're looking at the exact same economic prospects as Millennials. So far, the political views are a carbon copy of Millennials. By the next presidency, these 18 years olds will only have memories of living in an economic recession.

The traditional conservative Republican party, Neoliberalism/Reaganomics, the Middle-Way Democratic party, et al, are all dead. They just don't know it yet.

On the other hand, if he makes good on his oft stated pledge to do everything possible to help the Democratic nominee beat Donald Trump, and Hillary still loses, then Sanders returns to the Senate with a lot of party goodwill and a working coalition of establishment progressive party leaders and, most likely, a boatload of party rule reforms that Hillary will most certainly approve of to get his enthusiastic convention endorsement and/or VP nomination.

Well, there's an obstruction to this happening, and their name is Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton is slightly to the left of Bill, but she's a die-hard neoliberal, a die-hard interventionist, and while she's committed to specific progressive capital investments (for instance, HBC's) and a few social justice issues (e.g. equal pay for women), she definitely is ideologically opposed to virtually all of Sanders' policies. I don't believe that Hillary is just corrupt (There's definite cases where she has been, mind you, like her bankruptcy bill vote), but on the whole I think she and Bill get the Wall Street money because they're True Believers in neoliberalism, etc. So there's basically no chance whatsoever that Hillary will compromise with Sanders, particularly because she's surrounded herself with yes-men and yes-women who have collectively seem to believe that Hillary is "owed" the presidential nomination, and view Sanders as being an illegitimate candidate and a literal "usurper." I don't think they used that language merely to be provocative, I think they genuinely view Hillary as the "heir" to Obama and think Sanders is an "illegitimate bastard" in the formal sense of the term, and so she will not make any concessions with Sanders.

If there's any doubt of this, it's noteworthy that her speech language has changed wildly over the months, but her policies haven't changed one iota since August of 2015. A little bit Sanders but largely Warren (because there was serious DNC support for a Warren bid) made Hillary change two policies; the first is that she's now said she's against TPP and she's said that she's against KeystoneXL. Her policies have not changed one iota since August of 2015, which matches basically everything else she's said since 2013 (her change on gay marriage) and before. She's had months to "evolve" on a few key policies that would have probably shut down Sanders campaign months ago --but she just won't do it. That's been the most noteworthy thing of the 2016 Democratic primary. If she didn't do it then, I see no compelling reason why she's going to do it now. Not unless the DNC (which a few key large players are starting to) tells her to wrap it up and make peace with Sanders or else they will throw Bidden in because the fact that she's trailing Trump is worrying the **** out of them.
 
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Since you seem to know everything, tell me how making it easier for Trump to win advances your cause? It certainly did not advance Nader's causes when his candidacy was blamed for Bush's win in 2000. In fact it set the progressive movement back considerably. Is that what you are going for also or do you just not give a damn?

How is voting for someone who doesn't represent any of my causes going to help my causes get across? To be honest, as disgusting as it is, Trump is probably better on many of my top causes than Hillary. He's better in campaign finance reform, and he's better on war and peace. Are you really so baffled that not everyone who is a loyal democrat who just blindly votes for anyone with a D next to their name?

Actually she has glommed onto almost all of them, immediately after Sanders supported them first.
It's almost like she was an echo chamber. Me too, me too!!

Right. The things she has adopted I can't trust because she only "adopted" them after Sanders did. How could I possibly trust her to stick to her word?
 
How is voting for someone who doesn't represent any of my causes going to help my causes get across? To be honest, as disgusting as it is, Trump is probably better on many of my top causes than Hillary. He's better in campaign finance reform, and he's better on war and peace. Are you really so baffled that not everyone who is a loyal democrat who just blindly votes for anyone with a D next to their name?



Right. The things she has adopted I can't trust because she only "adopted" them after Sanders did. How could I possibly trust her to stick to her word?

I'm going to stop everyone right here. So far as I have followed, Hillary has not changed her message since August of 2015, and then it was only on the TPP and KeystoneXL. In other words, she's not glommed anything but some of Sanders words in her speeches. But on policy, and let's set iguanaman's very nicely cherrypicked (and even then, there are some important, poignant, glaring sources of disagreement) graph, she hasn't changed in 9 months. The Clinton platform is the Clinton platform is the Clinton platform. Let's not pretend like she's absorbed Sanders' positions en masse, unless you can present specific instances.
 
You may be content to always vote for whatever candidate the private Democratic party presents to you, but some of us have principles. You're free to follow the herd like a sheep, but I will vote for the candidate that best represents my beliefs. Hillary is a crooked liar and I disagree with her on just about everything. She has ridiculed Sanders and his supporters and refuses to adopt any of our positions into her platform.

We're not all mindless democratic party robots like you, and I wouldn't even be on the democrats side if it wasn't for Bernie.

Cut off your nose to spite your face if you choose.

I'll laugh at you guys...because you will be the most vocal about what Donald Trump does after you help him win...WITH YOUR PRINCIPLES.

My principles are to keep the Republicans from controlling the Supreme Court.
 
What the Democrats have to do...is to get rid of their incarnation of the Republican's Tea Party.

Sanders has some fine ideas...and he has provided a good service to the Democrats and to the country. But his adherents have now become the left wing nut fringe...and they will do to progressives what the Tea Party has done to conservatives.
 
Cut off your nose to spite your face if you choose.

I'll laugh at you guys...because you will be the most vocal about what Donald Trump does after you help him win...WITH YOUR PRINCIPLES.

My principles are to keep the Republicans from controlling the Supreme Court.

Good Lord, it's like almost NO ONE has any perception of the damage done to this country by the Scalia/Thomas/Alito trinity.
Swap out Alito for Roberts if you must but it's the same thing, a troika of ultra right apparatchiks bound and determined to advance theocracy and fascism.

Trump promises to revive and even augment such a troika, and that's not just for the duration of his fatal presidency, that's for the next forty effing years, people.
Have you lost your damn minds?
 
What the Democrats have to do...is to get rid of their incarnation of the Republican's Tea Party.

Sanders has some fine ideas...and he has provided a good service to the Democrats and to the country. But his adherents have now become the left wing nut fringe...and they will do to progressives what the Tea Party has done to conservatives.

Oh please, quit watching cable news.
I bet you also said that Occupy protesters were committing vandalism and rapes.
HINT: It was anarchists. Occupy insisted on being a "leaderless movement" so the damage was self inflicted but it was the anarchists who committed the actual violence.
 
Cut off your nose to spite your face if you choose.

I'll laugh at you guys...because you will be the most vocal about what Donald Trump does after you help him win...WITH YOUR PRINCIPLES.

My principles are to keep the Republicans from controlling the Supreme Court.

You can feel free to turn off your brain and just vote for whoever you're told to vote for by the DNC, but that's not how I, or anyone else in a democratic society should operate. Clinton does not represent my values or positions.
 
Good Lord, it's like almost NO ONE has any perception of the damage done to this country by the Scalia/Thomas/Alito trinity.
Swap out Alito for Roberts if you must but it's the same thing, a troika of ultra right apparatchiks bound and determined to advance theocracy and fascism.

Trump promises to revive and even augment such a troika, and that's not just for the duration of his fatal presidency, that's for the next forty effing years, people.
Have you lost your damn minds?

Have no idea of what their problem is...or how they think they will advance their cause by allowing the Republicans to do the nominations of candidates for the SCOTUS.

I think they are nuts.
 
Oh please, quit watching cable news.
I bet you also said that Occupy protesters were committing vandalism and rapes.
HINT: It was anarchists. Occupy insisted on being a "leaderless movement" so the damage was self inflicted but it was the anarchists who committed the actual violence.

What are you talking about???
 
You can feel free to turn off your brain and just vote for whoever you're told to vote for by the DNC, but that's not how I, or anyone else in a democratic society should operate. Clinton does not represent my values or positions.

I think Peewee Herman does though.

Vote for him.
 
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