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Euthanasia

Monserrat said:
You would think that but a lot of people survive the attempts, and I saw one cancer patient put out a memo on how to do it without endangering anyone else so there's a bit more to it then one would think...
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Well, frankly, it's not anyone else's problem that someone can't figure out how to "safety commit suicide" ;) As for successfully doing it, it takes very little knowledge or skill.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
That's a very good question, to which there is no logical answer.

It is an unimaginable cruelty and selfishness that we don't offer our incapacitated, suffering human loved ones the same self-sacrificial peace that we offer to our furry loved ones.
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That's what I was told when the vet told me I should let my dog go. I want to know why it's different for us because honestly I loved that dog more than most other people in my life, if letting her go was out of kindness then what's the difference with a human?

I ask the question because I really don't know and I really want to know what everyone thinks. Why is it okay for fido to die when he is in agony every day and you know it won't end until he's gone and it's okay to help him go but for a human the rules apparently change?
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
If it were up to nature, at least half of us in this thread would be dead already.

We interfere with "nature" constantly. Ironically, that is our nature.

Saying that it is ok to force people to suffer because it's what "nature" intended is beyond fallacious. In most cases, the only reason they lived long enough to suffer that much to begin with is because we interfered with nature.
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The bolded is true, and it wouldn't bother me at all. I'm a huge proponent of natural law. It's not forcing someone to suffer just that you refuse to kill them yourself. If you want to, or anyone else here wants to, I have no problem with that at all. As I stated in my first post, it is a personal ethical issue for me.
 
lizzie said:
Well, frankly, it's not anyone else's problem that someone can't figure out how to "safety commit suicide" ;) As for successfully doing it, it takes very little knowledge or skill.
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I disagree. Just look up failed suicide attempts stats. Most people aren't all that successful at it.

Edit: and if we're moving towards universal healthcare then it's going to be everybody else's problem.
 
lizzie said:
The bolded is true, and it wouldn't bother me at all. I'm a huge proponent of natural law. It's not forcing someone to suffer just that you refuse to kill them yourself. If you want to, or anyone else here wants to, I have no problem with that at all. As I stated in my first post, it is a personal ethical issue for me.
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But we're following natural law right now, lizzie. We're natural creatures. We've created everything we have using what exists on this earth. There's nothing unnatural about extending life, or ending it.

The fact that we don't legally allow people to assist the incapacitated is forcing people to suffer. The fact that trying to do it yourself is criminal, forcing people to resort to gruesome means in order to ensure success, is as good as forcing them, if they are decent people with concern for the cop they might traumatize.

I don't believe your position is. Medical professionals do have choices about whether they will be trained to do certain things. But I think allowing the state of things to continue does force people to suffer.
 
Monserrat said:
I disagree. Just look up failed suicide attempts stats. Most people aren't all that successful at it.
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Anyone who really wants to do it, can figure out how to do it successfully. There are a few sure-to-kill methods, and especially in our current technology age, the information is at virtually anyone's disposal.
 
Monserrat said:
That's what I was told when the vet told me I should let my dog go. I want to know why it's different for us because honestly I loved that dog more than most other people in my life, if letting her go was out of kindness then what's the difference with a human?

I ask the question because I really don't know and I really want to know what everyone thinks. Why is it okay for fido to die when he is in agony every day and you know it won't end until he's gone and it's okay to help him go but for a human the rules apparently change?
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If there is any difference, it is only a difference of acquiring consent. But I have also had to euthanize a beloved animal, and I can tell you that the look in her face gave me all the consent I needed, so I do think sometimes we gain the consent of our animals, even if they don't quite know what they're asking for.

That was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my young life. But I think it was also one of my best and most compassionate moments as a human being.

It's easy to just be nice to people or animals you love. It's hard to let them go because it's better for them. And we come up with all kinds of justifications for why we deny people the kindness we extend to our animals, but at the end of the day, it's just an unwillingness to let go.
 
lizzie said:
Anyone who really wants to do it, can figure out how to do it successfully. There are a few sure-to-kill methods, and especially in our current technology age, the information is at virtually anyone's disposal.
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Between 2008-2009 1 million adult Americans failed at their suicide attempts just to put it in perspective and those are just reported attempts from adults in the US.

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide-datasheet-a.PDF


The same site shows a combined medical and work lost cost from suicides of close to 35 billion dollars in 2010. Again, putting it in perspective.
 
lizzie said:
I'm a huge proponent of natural law.
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Oh really?

Would you then for example be ok with infanticide the killing of newborns being legal as well since 40 other species of primates who are apart of nature as well practice it therefore making it ''natural law''?
 
Monserrat said:
Between 2008-2009 1 million adult Americans failed at their suicide attempts just to put it in perspective and those are just reported attempts from adults in the US.

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide-datasheet-a.PDF


The same site shows a combined medical and work lost cost from suicides of close to 35 billion dollars in 2010. Again, putting it in perspective.
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I thought this was a thread about the ethics or thoughts on the act of euthanasia. You guys can try to keep appealing to emotion, but my stance on this issue is the same. For me, it is a personal ethical dilemma. I'm sorry you guys can't seem to understand that. The question is one of whether or not it's right or wrong to kill someone. I don't believe it is, based on my own philosophy about life, and regardless of the pitiful scenarios that can be put forth for my evaluation.
 
lizzie said:
I thought this was a thread about the ethics or thoughts on the act of euthanasia. You guys can try to keep appealing to emotion, but my stance on this issue is the same. For me, it is a personal ethical dilemma. I'm sorry you guys can't seem to understand that. The question is one of whether or not it's right or wrong to kill someone. I don't believe it is, based on my own philosophy about life, and regardless of the pitiful scenarios that can be put forth for my evaluation.
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It's not about you killing someone, it's about legally letting people choose to opt out. We make the decision for our most beloved pets but when it comes to humans we label them selfish, we label any potential aides to their own demise as being evil for helping them to go.

I don't see why it's different. I use my dog as an example because I cared about her more then I cared for most people and it's socially acceptable and even encouraged to put them down when they are greatly suffering without any hope for change but all of a sudden when it comes to people the rules of kindness are suppose to change. I don't get it. I don't see why it's different. Do you have the same ethical dilemma about putting an animal you love to sleep?
 
Monserrat said:
It's not about you killing someone, it's about legally letting people choose to opt out. We make the decision for our most beloved pets but when it comes to humans we label them selfish, we label any potential aides to their own demise as being evil for helping them to go.

I don't see why it's different. I use my dog as an example because I cared about her more then I cared for most people and it's socially acceptable and even encouraged to put them down when they are greatly suffering without any hope for change but all of a sudden when it comes to people the rules of kindness are suppose to change. I don't get it. I don't see why it's different. Do you have the same ethical dilemma about putting an animal you love to sleep?
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And as I said before
I have very mixed feelings about the subject, because although I don't like to watch suffering, I also have a basic belief that there is still something in it that we need, and that we learn, and it goes against much of my life philosophy. I don't mind if other people are willing to kill others to end their suffering, but I know that it would be very difficult for me to do so. Passive actions which facilitate death? No problem. Outright killing someone intentionally, I would have an ethical dilemma on my hands.
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To me, it's different because it's another human, and we identify with humans, and have been conditioned from early childhood that it is wrong to kill them, unless they have threatened or harmed us (or another). As I alluded to, I have no problem with other people killing people to put them out of their misery. It's just something that I would personally have a lot of problems with doing.
 
APACHERAT said:
They shoot horses don't they ?

I'm more curious why the Liberal PC Police haven't flagged the word "uthanasia" as being a derogatory word ?
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Maybe they are hoping that some segments of society, other than themselves of course, seriously consider it? :mrgreen:
 
polgara said:
Maybe they are hoping that some segments of society, other than themselves of course, seriously consider it? :mrgreen:
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Some still believe in and fear Thanatos and being carried off to the underworld because of practicing liberal revisionism.
 
APACHERAT said:
Some still believe in and fear Thanatos and being carried off to the underworld because of practicing liberal revisionism.
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This is one of the most hilariously kooky sentences I have ever read. :lol:

It's like little boys who believe the girls plot hostile take-over of the world in their treehouses.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
This is one of the most hilariously kooky sentences I have ever read. :lol:

It's like little boys who believe the girls plot hostile take-over of the world in their treehouses.
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I was never a student of Greek mythology or did I ever take Greek in high school.

But the word "euthanasia" comes from Greek and is associated with Thantaso.
 
APACHERAT said:
I was never a student of Greek mythology or did I ever take Greek in high school.

But the word "euthanasia" comes from Greek and is associated with Thantaso.
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I'm just going to nod and pretend that leap makes any sense.
 
Oregon has it right. If you have less than 6 months left, and you make the request yourself with proper witness, they will write you a suicide scrip.

Nobody advocates involuntary euthanasia. That is called the death penalty and has nothing to do with the OP.
 
Monserrat said:
That would make it selfish on our part then wouldn't it? For forcing someone to live who has more bad days then good.

I put my dog down over a year ago now and I remember asking the vet, how do I know when it's time? She said when the dog had far more bad days then good. Do you ever think about how many people out there are suffering from physical and mental illnesses, how many of them have more bad days then good and wonder if society is wrong for forcing them to live, for not giving them the option to opt out, to finally be free?

I do all the time and then I wonder what's really stopping us. Why do we force them to go on? Is it what you said, that we just identify too much with other people or does it have more to do with our own personal selfishness in just not wanting to be alone.
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The reason for the laws against assisted suicide is our weird and obsessive Judeo Christian heritage.

Church dogma and religious nonsense should never be the basis for secular laws. :peace
 
Pretty decent band in the 80s. Oh, wait. Not Youth in Asia? My bad.
 
lizzie said:
I thought this was a thread about the ethics or thoughts on the act of euthanasia. You guys can try to keep appealing to emotion, but my stance on this issue is the same. For me, it is a personal ethical dilemma. I'm sorry you guys can't seem to understand that. The question is one of whether or not it's right or wrong to kill someone. I don't believe it is, based on my own philosophy about life, and regardless of the pitiful scenarios that can be put forth for my evaluation.
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Is there no scenario where you would find yourself willing to commit would is commonly referred to as a 'mercy killing'?
 
Monserrat said:
We kill our pets when they are suffering more days then not and it's out of kindness towards them. Why don't we show the same kindness to our fellow human beings? What makes us so different?

Edit: maybe more appropriate in the philosophy forum?
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Animals do not have souls.
 
Monserrat said:
We kill our pets when they are suffering more days then not and it's out of kindness towards them. Why don't we show the same kindness to our fellow human beings? What makes us so different?

Edit: maybe more appropriate in the philosophy forum?
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Family members can't profit off the death of their pet.
 
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