Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens next

[Demon of Light]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

It's absurd because your daddy says so? :roll:

Actually the point is that even someone who is strongly pro-Israel cannot deny it. To say AIPAC is really influential is not even remotely controversial. Should I point to articles from major news sources calling AIPAC one of the most powerful lobbying organizations in the U.S.? I can hardly imagine any well-informed American saying AIPAC is anything but extremely influential. So if you are from the U.S. then I can only assume you simply do not wish to acknowledge what you know to be true for whatever reason.

"it is not easy to have a rational discussion with a moderate Jew about what is happening in the Middle East. It is a very emotional issue".
So there he go generalizing about all moderate Jews out there. A racist remark, since he conditions the person's attitude with his ethnicity.

Actually, what he is saying is insanely accurate. Many of the people here would be considered "moderates" and yet I find rational discussion is quite impossible. He only says "most Jews" and that is hardly a generalization, it's noting a statistical reality. I read a poll recently and most American Jews want an undivided Jerusalem and think "the Arabs" want the destruction of Israel. Any objective individual would consider this to be quite irrational and it roughly coincides with what Jews around the world believe. It is not at all unusual either as ethnonationalism tends to encourage that kind of irrational behavior.

Ethnicity was never made a deciding factor in the founding of the Israeli nation.

:doh Yeah, thank you for proving the guy's point. Nice how whenever it comes to criticism of Israel or the Jewish community the Jews are one people and criticizing them is racist, but whenever someone suggests discrimination in favor of Jews is racist suddenly they're just a religious group.

I can see however that once you fail to justify the words of an anti-semite you go on to try and change the thread's topic to Israel.

Actually, I'm just pointing out the absurdity of your own comments. You cannot have it both ways, my friend.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Making conclusions about individuals because of their ethnicity is usually racist.

As is in this case. There's no 'usually' here, buddy.
People who'd like to single out when it's racist and when it's not merely do it on their selected race. In other words, racists.

Making conclusions about ethnic groups because of their ethnicity may or may not be. For example, there's nothing racist about the statement that blacks in the US tend to vote Democratic.

Claiming that "it is not easy to have a rational discussion with a moderate Black person about anything having to do with racism" is a flat-out racist remark commented by a racist person who conditions a person's attitude with that person being Black.

This doesn't change when you change the word "Black" to "Jew".

If the victims on this thread want to test the quality of their reasoning, all they need do is apply it to some of their own arguments. Take for example the argument that the "Arab world" is irrationally opposed to Israel and wants to drive it into the sea. This kind of generalization would sound abominably racist to anyone who truly believed in the standard being proposed here. But of course no one really does.

Hah, but the term "Arab world" in its common form is referring to the governments of the world's Arab nations.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

He never said they were irrational because they are Jewish, he said they were often irrational because it is an emotional issue.

I believe the person's racist remark was that "It is not easy to have a rational discussion with a moderate Jew about what is happening in the Middle East. It is a very emotional issue."
As you can see there is no doubt here that he is conditioning a certain attitude with the person being "a moderate Jew".
The word moderate as used in the context of his statement leaves no room for doubt that the comment was indeed crudely anti-semitic and barbaric.

I want to add that I do not believe that this person specifically, unlike some of the people who would agree with the anti-Semitic remark that he has made, is actually an anti-Semite.
I think he merely didn't think about the meaning of his words before he has spoken them.
Nevertheless it was good to take action against him if only to ensure that anti-Semitism is not legitimized again in Europe.

He never said they were irrational because they are Jewish, he said they were often irrational because it is an emotional issue. Just like Americans are emotional about 911 or just like Turks are emotional about Cyprus.

Yes but he didn't say Israeli, he said Jewish. Now you understand why promoting such a view is awfully racist?
Was he speaking about a nationality it would have been more understandble (while still a generalization unless backed by statistics), but he has spoken about an ethnicity.
A label one gets by being born to a Jewish person. That's why racism is so backwards and disgusting, and why promoting such a view on Jews or any other ethnic group/race is something that needs to be opposed by those who hold equality to a higher standard.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Actually, what he is saying is insanely accurate. Many of the people here would be considered "moderates" and yet I find rational discussion is quite impossible.

You mean "many of the Jews here".
You need to condition you not finding rational discussion with them with them being Jewish, which could be true, depending on your own opinions.

He only says "most Jews" and that is hardly a generalization, it's noting a statistical reality.

He said that it is not possible to have rational discussion with the moderate Jew on Israel and the Mideast.
A racist remark conditioning the person's rationality on a subject with his ethnicity.

I read a poll recently and most American Jews want an undivided Jerusalem and think "the Arabs" want the destruction of Israel. Any objective individual would consider this to be quite irrational and it roughly coincides with what Jews around the world believe. It is not at all unusual either as ethnonationalism tends to encourage that kind of irrational behavior.

First of all I've never heard of such poll.
Secondly what you consider an "objective individual" and opinions you consider "irrational" are defined by your own subjective mind.
I for example would think that any objective individual would find your opinion on Israel and the Mideast to be irrational, but if I'd claim for example that most of the Arabs are irrational on the Mideast subject or that the moderate Arab cannot be rationally talked to on the subject of the Mideast it would be flat out racism, as it is when a person claims the same about Jews, Blacks or any other similar group of people.
It's the result of a backwards way of thinking, that fits the standards of the dark ages and not our times.

Yeah, thank you for proving the guy's point. Nice how whenever it comes to criticism of Israel or the Jewish community the Jews are one people and criticizing them is racist, but whenever someone suggests discrimination in favor of Jews is racist suddenly they're just a religious group.

No one was suggesting "discrimination in favor of Jews".
And then again as I've stated you're now trying to make it about Israel, notice how I've predicted that earlier and see your own comments now.

 

[Demon of Light]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

You mean "many of the Jews here".
You need to condition you not finding rational discussion with them with them being Jewish, which could be true, depending on your own opinions.

Well I know some of the people are Jews, but of those whose ethnicity I don't know I am not going to prejudge any of them as being Jewish.

He said that it is not possible to have rational discussion with the moderate Jew on Israel and the Mideast.
A racist remark conditioning the person's rationality on a subject with his ethnicity.

Actually he didn't say such a thing. If you say "black people commit more crimes than whites" it is entirely factual and not at all racist. That is just a statistical reality.

First of all I've never heard of such poll.

2010 Annual Survey of American Jewish Opinion - American Jewish Committee

Secondly what you consider an "objective individual" and opinions you consider "irrational" are defined by your own subjective mind.

I would generally consider someone to be objective or rational if their views coincide well with the facts and what is considered generally acceptable in society. Most Jews do not demonstrate this on Israel and the Middle East. The only way that relates to them being Jewish is that Israel is a Jewish nation and as such Jews are naturally more sympathetic toward it.

I for example would think that any objective individual would find your opinion on Israel and the Mideast to be irrational, but if I'd claim for example that most of the Arabs are irrational on the Mideast subject or that the moderate Arab cannot be rationally talked to on the subject of the Mideast it would be flat out racism, as it is when a person claims the same about Jews, Blacks or any other similar group of people.

Well, the Arab position is actually much closer to a rational position than the Jewish position. Still, I do not see anything particularly bigoted about it. Potentially it could be inaccurate, but I see no bigotry there. Of course, that depends on whether you are generalizing an entire group based on a limited sample of radicals or going off a general experience with individuals of all persuasions.

No one was suggesting "discrimination in favor of Jews".

Israel is rooted in such discrimination. Nice how you completely ignore the point about your double standards, which is of course all my comment was about despite your attempts to portray it differently.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Well I know some of the people are Jews, but of those whose ethnicity I don't know I am not going to prejudge any of them as being Jewish.

Indeed but this man did not speak about "pro-Israelis" but about Jews.

Actually he didn't say such a thing. If you say "black people commit more crimes than whites" it is entirely factual and not at all racist. That is just a statistical reality.

Do you have any statistics at all to back up your claim that that majority of the world's Jewish population are irrational on the subject of Israel?
Or that the moderate Jew is?

I would generally consider someone to be objective or rational if their views coincide well with the facts and what is considered generally acceptable in society.

So according to your definition of irrational, I should consider you to be an irrational person.

Most Jews do not demonstrate this on Israel and the Middle East.

From your own radical point of view, I do not doubt that this is true, but that would be the same on the majority of human beings and not one ethnicity or another.
So once more, unless you have statistics to back the claim that "most of the j00s are irrational on the mideast issue" it would be a baseless claim.
That you condition a person's opinions with him being born to a certain ethnicity is falt out racism, it implies that you hold the Jewish ethnicity to a certain and determined opinion or world view.

Well, the Arab position is actually much closer to a rational position than the Jewish position.

Yes, that's how it works in racism. One ethnicity better than the other.
In the case of anti-Semitism it is systematically being legitimized. People seem to be allowed today to freely make their claims that "Jews are controlling America" or equally racist and primitive remarks.

Israel is rooted in such discrimination. Nice how you completely ignore the point about your double standards, which is of course all my comment was about despite your attempts to portray it differently.

No it is not, and the subject of this thread is not Israel but the anti-Semite remark and people who agree with this anti-Semite remark.

 

[Gardener]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Yes, that's how it works in racism. One ethnicity better than the other.
In the case of anti-Semitism it is systematically being legitimized. People seem to be allowed today to freely make their claims that "Jews are controlling America" or equally racist and primitive remarks.



.

It's all part of a very systematic process where not only is the antisemitism normalized, but any attempt to point it out is squashed -- usually with the complicity of those who may not even be antisemitic, themself, but are just too ignorant to recognize the patterns and methodology, and consider the antisemitic rhetoric as a fundamental aspect of "free speech", but are too stupid to realize that the naming of it is, too.


...or at least SHOULD be. Considering the political climate these days, even the ability to name the old scourge is under attack.

 

[Demon of Light]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Indeed but this man did not speak about "pro-Israelis" but about Jews.

He did not speak about all Jews, but simply most Jews. Like I said, it is like saying more black people commit crimes than whites. That alone is an accurate statement and in no way racist. No doubt for him anyone demanding an undivided Jerusalem is irrational, most objective people would agree, and that is the common position of most Jews. That is just one aspect and I know there are definitely many other areas.

Do you have any statistics at all to back up your claim that that majority of the world's Jewish population are irrational on the subject of Israel?

I provided you with the poll, though it appears you simply ignored it.

Or that the moderate Jew is?

Like I said, many of the posters here would be considered moderates. Of course, his comment was more about Jews who are moderate as it concerns Israel.

So according to your definition of irrational, I should consider you to be an irrational person.

Well, seeing as you seem to not know the facts I would say no.

From your own radical point of view, I do not doubt that this is true, but that would be the same on the majority of human beings and not one ethnicity or another.

My view on the peace process is quite objective and consistent with the facts on the ground, yet I find many Jews would not even accept that.

That you condition a person's opinions with him being born to a certain ethnicity is falt out racism, it implies that you hold the Jewish ethnicity to a certain and determined opinion or world view.

There is no conditioning. I am basing this and the Commissioner was basing it off observation and experience. It's kind of like saying most people from Sweden are blonde.

Yes, that's how it works in racism. One ethnicity better than the other.
In the case of anti-Semitism it is systematically being legitimized. People seem to be allowed today to freely make their claims that "Jews are controlling America" or equally racist and primitive remarks.

No one said Jews are controlling America. Also, I was not saying Arabs are better. The position of the Arab world is supportive of a fair two-state solution, a generally more rational position than that of the Jewish population. Many Jews may support a two-state solution, but one that gives the Palestinians far less territory than even in 1967 with no real independence.

No it is not, and the subject of this thread is not Israel but the anti-Semite remark and people who agree with this anti-Semite remark.

You see, this is what is meant by irrational. For one, Israel is definitely rooted in discrimination. The kibbutz were all about discrimination. Israel as a state was all about discrimination. Today Israel discriminates in many ways, like immigration and citizenship. It is plain and simple discrimination, which has been in place in Israel from its inception and is rooted in the Yishuv that founded it.

Calling it a state for Jews and then saying it is not rooted in discrimination is just denial.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

He did not speak about all Jews, but simply most Jews.

In the first part of his remark, yes, and that is racist as well since he assumes that most of the people who are born into the Jewish ethnicity gain a specific attitude (being irrational on Israel and the Mideast).
In the second part of his remark he goes on to claiming that "the moderate Jew" cannot be rationally spoken to on those subjects, which is even more flat-out anti-Semitic and racist, since the term "moderate" resembles the more reasonable part of a group.

Like I said, it is like saying more black people commit crimes than whites.

Why change the content of the statement so much? Like I said, it is like saying that the moderate Black person cannot be rationally talked with on the subject of Racism. It is a racist remark.

That alone is an accurate statement and in no way racist. No doubt for him anyone demanding an undivided Jerusalem is irrational, most objective people would agree, and that is the common position of most Jews. That is just one aspect and I know there are definitely many other areas.

You cannot claim the majority of an ethnicity is irrational on a subject because you disagree with one of the opinions they hold.
And once more, to suggest that an ethnicity is a deciding factor in a person's attitude is racism incarnate. A person who makes such a remark is racist incarnate.

I provided you with the poll, though it appears you simply ignored it.

Aye, I've stated that I didn't hear on such poll merely out of curiosity. I have now.
My position didn't change, and I still do not support such strong form of racism and anti-Semitism. It has no place in our world.

Like I said, many of the posters here would be considered moderates. Of course, his comment was more about Jews who are moderate as it concerns Israel.

And you consider them irrational, just as they consider you.
However to claim that "most of the Jews are irrational beings when it comes to Israel" or that "a moderate Jew is an irrational being when it comes to Israel" are statements that condition a person's attitude with his ethnicity in a very crude and clear way, and are no less racist than claims that Jews are controlling America or other anti-Semitic canards.

Well, seeing as you seem to not know the facts I would say no.

And seeing that you seem to not know the facts I would say yes.

My view on the peace process is quite objective and consistent with the facts on the ground, yet I find many Jews would not even accept that.

Not because they are Jews, but because that is their opinion.
I find your opinion not merely to be subjective but to be at the radical part of the political compass, yet I wouldn't say it's because of your ethnicity.

There is no conditioning. I am basing this and the Commissioner was basing it off observation and experience. It's kind of like saying most people from Sweden are blonde.

That's statistically correct and indeed you could go further and say that most of the Nords are blonde, as it is a feature of their ethnicity.
Conditioning a person's attitude with his ethnicity, however, as this person did, is flat out racist, and a person following such thought line and agreeing with his remark is a flat out anti-Semite, a person who holds racist views towards Jews.

No one said Jews are controlling America.

Didn't say anyone has said so, I'm just giving another example of an equally anti-Semitic remark, one that is very common amongst the modern anti-Semites.
The Nazis for example have always conditioned attitudes with races and ethnicities, and have attributed specific, negative attitudes to people who are born into the Jewish ethnicity.

Also, I was not saying Arabs are better. The position of the Arab world is supportive of a fair two-state solution, a generally more rational position than that of the Jewish population. Many Jews may support a two-state solution, but one that gives the Palestinians far less territory than even in 1967 with no real independence.

Again that's a matter of your opinion and what you believe in, I do not intend to claim that the Jewish population is more rational than the Arab population or something equally racist like that.

You see, this is what is meant by irrational. For one, Israel is definitely rooted in discrimination. The kibbutz were all about discrimination. Israel as a state was all about discrimination. Today Israel discriminates in many ways, like immigration and citizenship. It is plain and simple discrimination, which has been in place in Israel from its inception and is rooted in the Yishuv that founded it.

Calling it a state for Jews and then saying it is not rooted in discrimination is just denial.

Once more you're engaging in the subject of Israel once failing to justify the anti-Semite remark, while this thread is still about the anti-Semitic remark and those who agree with this anti-Semitism and promote it.
Israel however is not rooted in anti-non-Jewish discrimination, as while Israel is a nation state it is still a democracy and all of its citizens Jews or not Jews are enjoying exactly the same civil rights.

 

[Demon of Light]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

In the first part of his remark, yes, and that is racist as well since he assumes that most of the people who are born into the Jewish ethnicity gain a specific attitude (being irrational on Israel and the Mideast).

That is not what he said. He was making a statement about most of the Jewish population today, right now. If someone said most black people voted for Obama that would not be implying black people will always vote for other black people. That is an observation about a current trend. Pollsters make those kinds of claims all the time.

What is different here is just that he expressed a negative opinion on those attitudes, which is not unusual for people analyzing such trends. If a poll came out and said most black people would be more likely to vote for a black president, someone expressing a negative opinion about such attitudes would not be considered racist.

If we were not talking about Jews and it had nothing to do with Israel, there would not even be a controversy because there shouldn't be a controversy.

In the second part of his remark he goes on to claiming that "the moderate Jew" cannot be rationally spoken to on those subjects, which is even more flat-out anti-Semitic and racist, since the term "moderate" resembles the more reasonable part of a group.

Moderate is not the same as rational. I am sure you can easily cherry-pick a definition saying otherwise, but that is primarily because usually someone avoiding the less extreme views means being rational. When it comes to the Jewish people dividing Jerusalem at all is a liberal opinion, whereas most unbiased observers see it as a moderate opinion.

Why change the content of the statement so much? Like I said, it is like saying that the moderate Black person cannot be rationally talked with on the subject of Racism. It is a racist remark.

That would not be racist. People tend to perceive more bigotry directed against their group than others. As such you are more likely to have a black person get irrational about racism against blacks in society then if you asked a white person about such racism. Not to say you would not find irrational position in every group, just that it would be more dominant in the group that is the subject of alleged bigotry.

Israel was found as a Jewish state for Jewish people and anyone who is Jewish is eligible. Like Ireland for Irish-Americans, Israel is a nation the Jewish people identify with. As such they tend to have the same sort of irrational support for it. Honestly, it goes with most cases. Were you to begin giving a negative, albeit factual, criticism of American history you'd be liable to get irrational outrage from most Americans.

You cannot claim the majority of an ethnicity is irrational on a subject because you disagree with one of the opinions they hold.

It is a single example, the poll cited shows a few more positions held by American Jews that would be considered irrational by him as well I imagine.

And once more, to suggest that an ethnicity is a deciding factor in a person's attitude is racism incarnate. A person who makes such a remark is racist incarnate.

When we are talking about someone's attitude towards their race or ethnicity it is hardly the same thing. People tend to get irrational about things concerning their race, ethnicity, or country.

My position didn't change, and I still do not support such strong form of racism and anti-Semitism. It has no place in our world.

It is not racism or anti-Semitism at all, let alone a "strong" form of it. This is just proving the point further, most would at best think this might be a little anti-Semitic if they thought it was anti-Semitic at all.

However to claim that "most of the Jews are irrational beings when it comes to Israel" or that "a moderate Jew is an irrational being when it comes to Israel" are statements that condition a person's attitude with his ethnicity in a very crude and clear way, and are no less racist than claims that Jews are controlling America or other anti-Semitic canards.

It does not condition a person's attitude, but simply describes the attitude of a group or large portion thereof.

Not because they are Jews, but because that is their opinion.

Their opinion is influenced in large part by their culture and that influenced largely by their ethnicity.

That's statistically correct and indeed you could go further and say that most of the Nords are blonde, as it is a feature of their ethnicity.
Conditioning a person's attitude with his ethnicity, however, as this person did, is flat out racist, and a person following such thought line and agreeing with his remark is a flat out anti-Semite, a person who holds racist views towards Jews.

Do you realize we are talking about a matter concerning one's ethnicity? It is like saying people get irrational about someone criticizing their family or religion. Feeling strongly about your ethnicity is not a biological feature, but it is a cultural feature of one's ethnicity.

Didn't say anyone has said so, I'm just giving another example of an equally anti-Semitic remark, one that is very common amongst the modern anti-Semites.

Well, I thought you were referring to the AIPAC statement he made, but if you agree that his claim there was legitimate then that's great.

The Nazis for example have always conditioned attitudes with races and ethnicities, and have attributed specific, negative attitudes to people who are born into the Jewish ethnicity.

Godwin's law ftl. :roll:

Again that's a matter of your opinion and what you believe in, I do not intend to claim that the Jewish population is more rational than the Arab population or something equally racist like that.

You see this is the problem, I said the Arab position on x is more rational and you imply I am saying group a is more rational than group b, which is not in fact what I am saying. I tire of these constant strawman arguments.

Once more you're engaging in the subject of Israel once failing to justify the anti-Semite remark, while this thread is still about the anti-Semitic remark and those who agree with this anti-Semitism and promote it.
Israel however is not rooted in anti-non-Jewish discrimination, as while Israel is a nation state it is still a democracy and all of its citizens Jews or not Jews are enjoying exactly the same civil rights.

I am curious, are you Jewish? Your profile says you are from Israel, but I recognize that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

That is not what he said. He was making a statement about most of the Jewish population today, right now. If someone said most black people voted for Obama that would not be implying black people will always vote for other black people. That is an observation about a current trend. Pollsters make those kinds of claims all the time.

That's not the same, one can be backed statistically while the other is a matter of a personality and attitude.
"Irrationality" is an actual attitude, a trait, something that describes an individual's personality. That is unlike a sole opinion such as supporting the dividing of Jerusalem or supporting Obama for the presidency.
Irrationality is defined by a person's illogical behavior, and to claim that most of the Black people act illogicaly is indeed as racist as the other KKK member.

Moderate is not the same as rational. I am sure you can easily cherry-pick a definition saying otherwise, but that is primarily because usually someone avoiding the less extreme views means being rational. When it comes to the Jewish people dividing Jerusalem at all is a liberal opinion, whereas most unbiased observers see it as a moderate opinion.

Ah, no, moderate by definition is a person who's not a radical in his political opinions or is not extremely partisan in his attitude.
In that case to claim that the moderate Jews are irrational is to make an anti-Semitic statement by conditioning the irrationality attitude with a person being your moderate (non-extreme) Jew.
If anything, was he to refer to extreme Jews and not to the moderate Jews he would be making it less of an anti-Semitic statement, but right now there are zero doubts that people who agree with such a remark are 100% anti-Semites, people who hold strong negative opinions towards the Jewish ethnicity and believe it is a deciding factor in negative attitudes.

That would not be racist. People tend to perceive more bigotry directed against their group than others. As such you are more likely to have a black person get irrational about racism against blacks in society then if you asked a white person about such racism. Not to say you would not find irrational position in every group, just that it would be more dominant in the group that is the subject of alleged bigotry.

Absolutely wrong, the moderate black person would be indeed rational on the discussion of racism or any other subject because if he would be irrational it would suggest extreme partisanship and hence he would not be a moderate.
That is merely to appeal to logics, but of course such claim conditions the perosn's irrationality with him being black and that is without a dobut, a nasty, racist remark towards black people.

Israel was found as a Jewish state for Jewish people and anyone who is Jewish is eligible. Like Ireland for Irish-Americans, Israel is a nation the Jewish people identify with. As such they tend to have the same sort of irrational support for it. Honestly, it goes with most cases. Were you to begin giving a negative, albeit factual, criticism of American history you'd be liable to get irrational outrage from most Americans.

First of all while most American Jews identify with Israel as far as I know from recent polls, that doesn't mean all of them do or that every single moderate Jew does.
Secondly to claim that this makes them irrational is indeed extremly irrational by its own right.

It is a single example, the poll cited shows a few more positions held by American Jews that would be considered irrational by him as well I imagine.

You don't know what he considers irrational, you're referring to what you consider irrational, and seeing what you do consider irrational I must say I find your opinion to be extremely irrational.

When we are talking about someone's attitude towards their race or ethnicity it is hardly the same thing. People tend to get irrational about things concerning their race, ethnicity, or country.

It is not racism or anti-Semitism at all, let alone a "strong" form of it. This is just proving the point further, most would at best think this might be a little anti-Semitic if they thought it was anti-Semitic at all.

I have no doubts that you dispute this, but fact remains that the definition of racial discrimination is, among others, the belief that genetics or ethnic origins are decisive factors in a person's attitude.
Since the claim that every moderate (not a radical) Jew is irrational, it is indeed a strong form of anti-Semitism and is a position taken by people who hold racism towards Jews.

It does not condition a person's attitude, but simply describes the attitude of a group or large portion thereof.

Absolutely false, the claim that every moderate (not a radical, not extremely partisan) Jew is irrational is indeed a claim that is conditioning the trait of irrationality with the person's Jewishness.

Their opinion is influenced in large part by their culture and that influenced largely by their ethnicity.

I don't disagree, but once more there are huge differences between an opinion and an attitude.
An opinion, such as supporting Obama for presidency, might be influenced by every single factor.
An attitude however would never be decided by a person's ethnicity. A person won't become irrational because he was born to Jewish parents, contrary to the anti-Semitic claims.

Do you realize we are talking about a matter concerning one's ethnicity? It is like saying people get irrational about someone criticizing their family or religion. Feeling strongly about your ethnicity is not a biological feature, but it is a cultural feature of one's ethnicity.

Well, I thought you were referring to the AIPAC statement he made, but if you agree that his claim there was legitimate then that's great.

I have never said that I agree with his claim, either.

Godwin's law ftl.

The subject of this thread is anti-Semitism, I see no reason not to bring times when anti-Semitism was legitimized as an example for what the anti-Semitic remark stands for.

You see this is the problem, I said the Arab position on x is more rational and you imply I am saying group a is more rational than group b, which is not in fact what I am saying. I tire of these constant strawman arguments.

You've claimed that "the Arab population position is more rational than the Jewish population position", conditioning a position with an ethnicity.

I am curious, are you Jewish? Your profile says you are from Israel, but I recognize that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

It doesn't matter if I'm Jewish, and hence, I shall not answer this question, if only to ensure that it doesn't play a part in your comments.

 

[Winston Smith]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Anyone ever try to have a rational discussion about drug policy with a moderate, white American?

It's difficult.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Anyone ever try to have a rational discussion about drug policy with a moderate, white American?

It's difficult.

If you'd say "it is impossible to have a rational discussion with a moderate white person about the drugs issue" it would be a similar statement, and a racist statement at that.
Try saying it in the Breaking News section when a thread about drugs emerges and see what responses you're going to get.

 

[Winston Smith]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

So it is not easy to have a rational discussion with a moderate Jew about what is happening in the Middle East. It is a very emotional issue."

..........

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

TED,
Noting for the record that this thread isn't doing a whole hell of a lot to prove De Gucht wrong. :lol:

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

..........

Correction taken, but that doesn't change my point.
You have chosen to refer to "white Americans" instead of simply "white", and while this doesn't change the fact that you're conditioning an attitude with an ethnicity, it's still less obvious than the original remark.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

TED,
Noting for the record that this thread isn't doing a whole hell of a lot to prove De Gucht wrong. :lol:

There is no need to prove that such racist remark is wrong, it should be obvious.
He himself probably doesn't believe he was right. The only ones who do follow such thought lines conditioning a person's opinions with his race/ethnicity are the racists themselves.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Heh, like I was saying...

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Heh, like I was saying...

So you believe that his statement is true.
You believe that "it is not easy to have a rational discussion with a moderate Jew about what is happening in the Middle East", and you believe it was proven in this thread which is not about the middle east but about anti-Semitism.

kthxbye.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

See, this is what's great about you, Apocalypse. There's no need to have a discussion with you, because you'll totally re-write whatever I say, or else invent my words out of whole cloth -- whichever best suits your agenda.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

TED,
Noting for the record that this thread isn't doing a whole hell of a lot to prove De Gucht wrong. :lol:

Just because of the understandable fear that I'd do my usual rewriting of what you say to suit my personal agenda, let me quote your post.

Alright so why do you believe that this thread has failed to prove De Gucht wrong?
Do you believe that someone really needs to prove him wrong?
Do you have doubts as to whether his statement is wrong or not?

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Just because of the understandable fear that I'd do my usual rewriting of what you say to suit my personal agenda, let me quote your post.

Well, at least you're up-front about it. :lol:

Alright so why do you believe that this thread has failed to prove De Gucht wrong?

Well, I was being sarcastic since I really meant that this thread was kinda proving his point. Nevertheless, not even half a dozen posts into the thread, there you were, mischaracterizing De Gucht's remarks and bringing the vitriol.

Do you believe that someone really needs to prove him wrong?

I don't think you can prove him wrong. He used a reasonable amount of care not to express his opinion universially.

Do you have doubts as to whether his statement is wrong or not?

Given the reaction that I see every single time someone has the temerity to be critical of Israel, I think there's some substance to what he said.

 

[Winston Smith]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Correction taken, but that doesn't change my point.
You have chosen to refer to "white Americans" instead of simply "white", and while this doesn't change the fact that you're conditioning an attitude with an ethnicity, it's still less obvious than the original remark.

It could be true that it's difficult to discuss it rationally with moderate Jews in general, depending on the extent to which they take an interest in Israeli affairs because of their religious identification. I don't happen to think it is true, but that probably has a lot to do with one's definition of "moderate." Then again, he may have meant that it's easy enough to have a rational discussion with a moderate but not so easy to find one. The statement would make a little more sense that way.

In any case, there are at least two levels of discourse here, one religious and one political, that have nothing to do with race. To say that people always think a certain way because they were born black, white, or Jewish is quite different from saying they tend to think that way because they're steeped in the religious and political interests of their culture. The latter is not "conditioning" opinions on race. It's just making an observation about political realities, which in turn are related to racial identity among other things as a matter of fact.

It's often said that Arabs--not just Arab governments--are fanatically opposed to Israel. The accuracy of such statements may be questioned. Indeed, a pattern of inaccurate, negative statements may well lead to an inference of racist motives. But the statements are not racist "by definition," and it's in no way valid to assume such motives from the statements on their face since fanaticism does actually exist and may be prevalent in some contexts. As a concept, pro-Israeli fanaticism is every bit as valid as anti-Israeli fanaticism. To assume otherwise is to foreclose argument of facts and to insist on a standard that no one would apply uniformly.

 

[Gardener]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

See, this is what's great about you, Apocalypse. There's no need to have a discussion with you, because you'll totally re-write whatever I say, or else invent my words out of whole cloth -- whichever best suits your agenda.

Yeah, like this whole thread isn't about an agenda.:roll:

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Well, at least you're up-front about it.

You'd be too were you engaged with such dishonesty on a daily basis.

Well, I was being sarcastic since I really meant that this thread was kinda proving his point.

So you do believe his point is correct, and my earlier post to you was not a "rewriting of your words to suit my personal agenda".

I don't think you can prove him wrong. He used a reasonable amount of care not to express his opinion universially.

He said that the moderate Jew is irrational on the subject of the mideast. I think that in order to prove such anti-Semitic remark wrong one merely needs to point at a non-radical Jew that can be rationally spoken to on the subject of the mideast. One single non-radical Jew. You don't believe that's possible?

Given the reaction that I see every single time someone has the temerity to be critical of Israel, I think there's some substance to what he said.

I don't see what this has to do with Israel.
This is about anti-Semitism, modern anti-Semitism if you'd like, the show of racism towards Jews.
In this case an anti-Semitic remark and the anti-Semites who promote it.

This guy has made the statement that the non-extremist Jew, your average moderate Jew, is not a rational person when it comes to the subject of the Mideast.
He has conditioned the attitude (not being rational on the subject of the Mideast) with the person being Jewish. In this case a non-extremist, average moderate Jew.
Such remark is absurdly racist, and the only people who would agree with his point are the racists, the backwards primitives that need to be opposed.