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Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens next

Demon of Light

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Karel De Gucht, a former Belgian foreign minister who is now the E.U.'s Trade Commissioner, had been asked in a radio interview on Thursday for his opinion on renewed Israeli-Palestinian peace talks launched in Washington.

"That is the best organized lobby that exists there," De Gucht was quoted by The Associated Press as telling VRT, a Dutch-language radio network. "There is, indeed, a religion, I can hardly describe it differently, among most Jews that they are right. So it is not easy to have a rational discussion with a moderate Jew about what is happening in the Middle East. It is a very emotional issue."
“What sort of environment allows such remarks to be made openly by a senior politician?” said Moshe Kantor, the EJC president. “This is part of a dangerous trend of incitement against Jews and Israel in Europe that needs to be stamped out immediately.”
Source: Jewish Telegraphic Agency

A politician makes a fairly accurate observation and is immediately labeled an anti-Semite by World Jewry. Unfortunately, he gave them exactly what they wanted a comment they can call an apology. In essence they can say he acknowledged what he said was wrong and anti-Semitic.

Honestly, he should have just said, "They ain't nothing anti-Semitic 'bout what I say! Y'all are stupid!"
 

PeteEU

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Well said.. but that religion also exists among Palestinians. And it is that religion of "I am right" that is hampering peace in the area.
 

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Yeah, sure, let's generalize people from a whole religion based on old racist beliefs that got 6 million of them killed in WW2. Why would they be upset?
 

PeteEU

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Yeah, sure, let's generalize people from a whole religion based on old racist beliefs that got 6 million of them killed in WW2. Why would they be upset?
Why not, it is done every day against Muslims by American's and Israel's. Not that his comments are racist in any way or anti-semtic.
 

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

To suggest that an ethnicity is a deciding factor in a person's attitude is to make a racist remark by definition.

/thread
 

PeteEU

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

To suggest that an ethnicity is a deciding factor in a person's attitude is to make a racist remark by definition.

/thread
Interesting... I will remember this quote for you..

But is the guy wrong? Considering the usual arrogance of many Israelis and their supporters in the belief they are in the right no matter what.. then one has to ask the question.. is he not right in his comments?
 

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

But is the guy wrong? Considering the usual arrogance of many Israelis and their supporters in the belief they are in the right no matter what.. then one has to ask the question.. is he not right in his comments?
"There is, indeed, a religion, I can hardly describe it differently, among most Europeans that they are right. So it is not easy to have a rational discussion with a moderate European about anything having to do with America. It is a very emotional issue."
 

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Interesting... I will remember this quote for you..
No need to, my memory is good enough.

But is the guy wrong?
I am absolutely certain that he is wrong. I know many Jews who are actually showing hatred towards Israel, and many others who oppose its policies.
And even then what he has said is that a Jew cannot be spoken to rationally about the subject of Israel. That would include countless of Jews from all political positions who actually can be ratioanlly talked to about Israel.

Basically to claim that his remark was right is to engage in pure anti-Semitism, to make a racist remark towards Jews.
 

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

To suggest that an ethnicity is a deciding factor in a person's attitude is to make a racist remark by definition.
Good thing that's not what he said. He said "most Jews" will not rationally discuss Israel or the Middle East. Most =/= all. You can know many violent Muslims and at the same time say most Muslims are non-violent. There is no contradiction there.

I am curious though, what do you call making ethnicity a deciding factor in founding a nation and making it a deciding factor in immigration and citizenship?
 

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

"There is, indeed, a religion, I can hardly describe it differently, among most Europeans that they are right. So it is not easy to have a rational discussion with a moderate European about anything having to do with America. It is a very emotional issue."
This seems a perfectly reasonable position to take, looking at it from your perspective.
 

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Let's see, here. A Belgian politician indulged in a time-honored antisemitic canard in regards to undue Jewish influence, he was called on it, and now all those who support the canard are trying to characterize the reaction to the antisemitic statement as an overreaction.

My goodness -- it's right out of the playbook, isn't it?
 

Demon of Light

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Let's see, here. A Belgian politician indulged in a time-honored antisemitic canard in regards to undue Jewish influence, he was called on it, and now all those who support the canard are trying to characterize the reaction to the antisemitic statement as an overreaction.

My goodness -- it's right out of the playbook, isn't it?
You know, just to point out the absurdity of calling this an anti-semitic canard I was talking about the Commissioner's comments with my parents who are both hardcore conservative Evangelicals who think there should be no mosques built in the U.S. and that the Palestinians are out to get the Jews, but when I mentioned the Commissioner's comment on the considerable influence of AIPAC my father's response was basically "Duh!"
 

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

You know, just to point out the absurdity of calling this an anti-semitic canard I was talking about the Commissioner's comments with my parents who are both hardcore conservative Evangelicals who think there should be no mosques built in the U.S. and that the Palestinians are out to get the Jews, but when I mentioned the Commissioner's comment on the considerable influence of AIPAC my father's response was basically "Duh!"
It's absurd because your daddy says so? :roll:
 

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Yeah, sure, let's generalize people from a whole religion based on old racist beliefs that got 6 million of them killed in WW2. Why would they be upset?
It was far more than six million.
 

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

"There is, indeed, a religion, I can hardly describe it differently, among most Europeans that they are right. So it is not easy to have a rational discussion with a moderate European about anything having to do with America. It is a very emotional issue."
"There is, indeed, a religion, I can hardly describe it differently, among most Conservatives that they are right. So it is not easy to have a rational discussion with a moderate Conservatives about anything having to do with Islam. It is a very emotional issue."

"There is, indeed, a religion, I can hardly describe it differently, among most Liberals that they are right. So it is not easy to have a rational discussion with a moderate Liberal about anything having to do with Islam. It is a very emotional issue."

This game is fun.
 

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

I am curious though, what do you call making ethnicity a deciding factor in founding a nation
its easy: "Spring of Nations"
 

Apocalypse

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Good thing that's not what he said. He said "most Jews" will not rationally discuss Israel or the Middle East. Most =/= all. You can know many violent Muslims and at the same time say most Muslims are non-violent. There is no contradiction there.
"it is not easy to have a rational discussion with a moderate Jew about what is happening in the Middle East. It is a very emotional issue".
So there he go generalizing about all moderate Jews out there. A racist remark, since he conditions the person's attitude with his ethnicity.

I am curious though, what do you call making ethnicity a deciding factor in founding a nation and making it a deciding factor in immigration and citizenship?
Ethnicity was never made a deciding factor in the founding of the Israeli nation.
The Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group. People of both the Jewish ethnicity and the Jewish religion will be equally considered "Jewish".

I can see however that once you fail to justify the words of an anti-semite you go on to try and change the thread's topic to Israel.
 
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Apocalypse

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

"There is, indeed, a religion, I can hardly describe it differently, among most Conservatives that they are right. So it is not easy to have a rational discussion with a moderate Conservatives about anything having to do with Islam. It is a very emotional issue."

"There is, indeed, a religion, I can hardly describe it differently, among most Liberals that they are right. So it is not easy to have a rational discussion with a moderate Liberal about anything having to do with Islam. It is a very emotional issue."

This game is fun.
"The is, a religion, I can hardly describe it differently, among most Black people that they are right. So it is not easy to have a rational discussion with a moderate Black person about anything having to do with racism. It is a very emotional issue."

Conditioning a person's attitude with him being Black is racism by definition.
 

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

"The is, a religion, I can hardly describe it differently, among most Black people that they are right. So it is not easy to have a rational discussion with a moderate Black person about anything having to do with racism. It is a very emotional issue."

Conditioning a person's attitude with him being Black is racism by definition.
I agree, but it was poorly worded. I doubt he's an anti-Semite because I understand his point and how he might have thought it made sense in his head. I think if he had used the word Israeli instead of Jew it would have been better, but perhaps he meant Jew. It also would depend on what he believed causes this "condition" among Jews, if he thought it was there simply because they are Jewish and thats what Jews do than its anti-Semite. If he believes that because of the strenuous situation many Jews, and especially Israelis, are in in the Middle East it would be more understandable because the blame falls on the situation not the people.
 

bub

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Source: Jewish Telegraphic Agency

A politician makes a fairly accurate observation and is immediately labeled an anti-Semite by World Jewry. Unfortunately, he gave them exactly what they wanted a comment they can call an apology. In essence they can say he acknowledged what he said was wrong and anti-Semitic.

Honestly, he should have just said, "They ain't nothing anti-Semitic 'bout what I say! Y'all are stupid!"
He said 2 things:

1) Only the USA can have an influence on Israel, and we should not underestimate the influence of the Jewish lobby on US politics
2) It is not easy to have a rational discussion because it is a very emotional issue

Now about the Jewish lobby, let's check if it exists.

AIPAC - America's Pro-Israel Lobby "America's pro-Israel lobby" "For more than half a century, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee has worked to help make Israel more secure by ensuring that American support remains strong. From a small pro-Israel public affairs boutique in the 1950s, AIPAC has grown into a 100,000-member national grassroots movement described by The New York Times as "the most important organization affecting America's relationship with Israel" and whose activities include "Prohibiting U.S. aid and contacts with a Hamas-led PA until its leaders recognize Israel's right to exist"...

I don't think anyone reasonable can deny that there is a Jewish lobby in Washington and that this lobby is influent. Just read the list of their "achievements" on their website.

Then, about the fact that it is not easy to have a rational discussion about a very emotional issue, that may sound a bit prejudiced but no one can deny that neither.


And I want to add that De Gucht is not "politically correct", he has caused several diplomatic incidents with Congo when he said what everyone think: he openly said that there was a lot of corruption in Congo, that the Congolese state is particularly inefficient, that he doubted about the capacities of the Congolese politicians, that we had wasted a lot of money there...and the Congolese politicians replied that De Gucht was "racist" and that he believed Congo was still a Belgian colony...

Why don't they reply to the criticism instead of labelling him "racist" or "antisemite"? Is it not true that it is difficult to have a rational discussion about emotional issues? Is it not true that there is a Jewish lobby in Washington?
 
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Apocalypse

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

He said 2 things:

1) Only the USA can have an influence on Israel, and we should not underestimate the influence of the Jewish lobby on US politics
2) It is not easy to have a rational discussion because it is a very emotional issue

Now about the Jewish lobby, let's check if it exists.

AIPAC - America's Pro-Israel Lobby "America's pro-Israel lobby" "For more than half a century, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee has worked to help make Israel more secure by ensuring that American support remains strong. From a small pro-Israel public affairs boutique in the 1950s, AIPAC has grown into a 100,000-member national grassroots movement described by The New York Times as "the most important organization affecting America's relationship with Israel" and whose activities include "Prohibiting U.S. aid and contacts with a Hamas-led PA until its leaders recognize Israel's right to exist"...

I don't think anyone reasonable can deny that there is a Jewish lobby in Washington and that this lobby is influent. Just read the list of their "achievements" on their website.

Then, about the fact that it is not easy to have a rational discussion about a very emotional issue, that may sound a bit prejudiced but no one can deny that neither.


And I want to add that De Gucht is not "politically correct", he has caused several diplomatic incidents with Congo when he said what everyone think: he openly said that there was a lot of corruption in Congo, that the Congolese state is particularly inefficient, that he doubted about the capacities of the Congolese politicians, that we had wasted a lot of money there...and the Congolese politicians replied that De Gucht was "racist" and that he believed Congo was still a Belgian colony...

Why don't they reply to the criticism instead of labelling him "racist" or "antisemite"? Is it not true that it is difficult to have a rational discussion about emotional issues? Is it not true that there is a Jewish lobby in Washington?
Two points bub:

1) Nobody argues about whether there is a Jewish lobby in the US.
The anti-semitic canard exists when people believe that such lobby's influence is so great that it is a decisive factor in America's policies, or in other words, that Jews control America's foreign policy.

2) He didn't say that, he said that you can't have a rational discussion about Israel with a moderate Jew.
That's conditioning the person's ethnicity with his attitude and that's flat out anti-semitic, racist and repulsive remark.
 
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bub

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Two points bub:

1) Nobody argues about whether there is a Jewish lobby in the US.
The anti-semitic canard exists when people believe that such lobby's influence is so great that it is a decisive factor in America's policies, or in other words, that Jews control America's foreign policy.

2) He didn't say that, he said that you can't have a rational discussion about Israel with a moderate Jew.
That's conditioning the person's ethnicity with his attitude and that's flat out anti-semitic, racist and repulsive remark.
Aren't you confusing "prejudice that is not entirely wrong" with "antisemitism"?

Politicians say such things every day about many groups of people, why is it a scandal only when it is headed towards Jews?
 

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Aren't you confusing "prejudice that is not entirely wrong" with "antisemitism"?
Don't think I do, no.
To claim that an ethnicity is a decisive factor in a person's attitude is, as you must know, racism.

And of course I think that it's entirely wrong, Jews don't control America's foreign policy, Hilary Clinton does, and being a Jew doesn't make a person irrational in debates about Israel, certainly if one is considering that not all Jews are pro-Israeli and that not all Jews show interest in Israeli politics.
 
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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Making conclusions about individuals because of their ethnicity is usually racist. Making conclusions about ethnic groups because of their ethnicity may or may not be. For example, there's nothing racist about the statement that blacks in the US tend to vote Democratic. Our Voting Rights Act and the case law supporting it are based on the idea that ethnic groups constitute communities of political interest. I suspect the commissioner's statement is a criticism of a political community rather than a race.

If the victims on this thread want to test the quality of their reasoning, all they need do is apply it to some of their own arguments. Take for example the argument that the "Arab world" is irrationally opposed to Israel and wants to drive it into the sea. This kind of generalization would sound abominably racist to anyone who truly believed in the standard being proposed here. But of course no one really does.
 
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bub

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Re: Eu Trade Commissioner says something bad about some Jews, you know what happens n

Don't think I do, no.
To claim that an ethnicity is a decisive factor in a person's attitude is, as you must know, racism
He never said they were irrational because they are Jewish, he said they were often irrational because it is an emotional issue.

And of course I think that it's entirely wrong, Jews don't control America's foreign policy
He never said that, he said there was a Jewish lobby in Washington. Google "aipac".

and being a Jew doesn't make a person irrational in debates about Israel, certainly if one is considering that not all Jews are pro-Israeli and that not all Jews show interest in Israeli politics.
He never said they were irrational because they are Jewish, he said they were often irrational because it is an emotional issue. Just like Americans are emotional about 911 or just like Turks are emotional about Cyprus.

And he didn't talk about "religion", it is a mistranslation, he said "geloof" which means "belief", a "way of thinking". So of course it's a prejudiced point of view, it's a generalization, but it's not more scandalous than when posters in this thread say that a newspaper is "antisemitic". Every politician makes such generalizations every day.
 
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